Lease Land Access Concerns

[leo]

Originally Posted by bobalong

That is quite the area you farmed in. If they only lived within 10 miles of you that means you knew them all, how many of them did you report?

All of the ones that I caught, were reported by my wife or I. I never said the place was over run with poachers, just the poachers happened to be rural, not town or city folk, and yes, I even knew a few of them. Next....

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by bobalong

That is quite the area you farmed in. If they only lived within 10 miles of you that means you knew them all, how many of them did you report?

Many people are loathe to report anybody because of the repurcussions such as this post here.
"all I can say is next lease holder tells me I can’t foot access his leased land because its only for friends and family I’m taking it in my own hands , he will lose a lot of fencing and will be chasing cows , every year till he stops being so selfish and greedy ,and then he can try and figure out which person he ignorantly told get off my leased land , ignorance can go both ways ! If you own your land you have rights , not leasing for the simple reason you want oil revenue and to make your own hunting paradise .
Reply With Quote"
Cat

[AbAngler]

Relatives of mine have roughly 20 sections, leased and deeded a ways north east of Hanna and they let EVERYONE on. From what he tells me, he rarely has any issues and I've never had any issues getting access to leased land there.

Where I've found access to be harder, is on the eastern slopes/foothills. There always seems to be some excuse with the most common being they already have hunters on that day. I've gone to a couple of these leases (they are usually small) and found no one.

[Rocky7]

There should not be any grazing leases in the foothills/eastern slopes. Period. There is way too much pressure on that wild land to tolerate cows.

(I think a lot of the friction posted here would be solved, too?)

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

sunsetrider you are wanting to talk about your costs and investments. 20000 acres of grazing lease would represent about 4000 head of cattle on grass. Going rate for leasing grass from private landowners is about $25/cow-calf/month. On a 5 month grazing season that is a $500,000 cost. You are paying the gov't under $2/cow-calf/month which amounts to a $40,000 cost. Leaseholders on the private owned land are maintaining the fences on the property so those costs are the same for you or them but you do have to pay the taxes on the land which they don't - another $10,000 per year (I think I am generous with that number). What are you doing with the extra $450,000 per year that cow-calf operators who do not have the government lease land that you do are having to spend?
I know these are rough numbers but they serve to illustrate the principle - and show that we really are not talking chump change here.

Interesting numbers. 3 weeks and no response? Wonder why?

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

There should not be any grazing leases in the foothills/eastern slopes. Period. There is way too much pressure on that wild land to tolerate cows.

(I think a lot of the friction posted here would be solved, too?)

[shooter_mcgavin]

Way to go folks. It's great to hear that people are taking a stand to ensure that public land is kept public for generations to come. I'm sending a letter to my MLA tomorrow.

[dutch_m]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I think I will!

The lease holder I am talking about in particular feels the lease is "his personal" hunting ground and that the animals belong to him....that's why on his end, his phone never rings....imagine that!

LC

X 2

Allot of them SOB"s think just like your saying , and they have even gone with saying to me that sorry but I have one cow I can"t find , meanwhile him and his buds can go hunt , and keep the gates locked , sick of that bull****

[dutch_m]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

Hmmm So from what i am reading is after 25 years af putting money into something to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars I should just walk away from it. Hmmm doesnt sound very finacially feasable ,, and i think your right about beating ourselves about the head.

It was your choice to put money into it , no one pushed you to or forced ya to , no need to walk away , thats sulking about it ,

Not your land , point blank , you sound like you think you own it ,

Truth in simple terms to easy understand is

We are taxpayers , the land belongs to the people of Alberta , all people

you have the right to use OUR land as you so see fit all year long , except some of us would like to go on OUR land to hunt deer that you don"t OWN for just maybe a couple months ,

Is this not fair , of course it is , and you dame well know it , but like most of the lease holders I have run into , you think you own it and own the right to hunt it yourselves or your friends and buds ,

And I"m sick of hearing about all the damage , you know why , because I think allot of that is bull**** , I've asked and talked with CO"s , hardly ever happens , your cows most likely rip more fence in a season then hunters would in 20 years , give us all a break

You want your own hunting spot , then buy more land and fill your boots , just dont lease it , because as long as I can I will fight this crap of the lease holders trying to keep us out

[sunsetrider2011]

Originally Posted by dutch_m

It was your choice to put money into it , no one pushed you to or forced ya to , no need to walk away , thats sulking about it ,

Not your land , point blank , you sound like you think you own it ,

Truth in simple terms to easy understand is

We are taxpayers , the land belongs to the people of Alberta , all people

you have the right to use OUR land as you so see fit all year long , except some of us would like to go on OUR land to hunt deer that you don"t OWN for just maybe a couple months ,

Is this not fair , of course it is , and you dame well know it , but like most of the lease holders I have run into , you think you own it and own the right to hunt it yourselves or your friends and buds ,

And I"m sick of hearing about all the damage , you know why , because I think allot of that is bull**** , I've asked and talked with CO"s , hardly ever happens , your cows most likely rip more fence in a season then hunters would in 20 years , give us all a break

You want your own hunting spot , then buy more land and fill your boots , just dont lease it , because as long as I can I will fight this crap of the lease holders trying to keep us out

i think you best go back and read the rest of the thread, before opening your Beak.

[dutch_m]

Originally Posted by sunsetrider2011

i think you best go back and read the rest of the thread, before opening your Beak.

really , i'v went over it a few times before i made my post , again i'll stand by what i wrote , seen it enough over the last 20 years , one way or the other , i just hope they get it fixed

i'd like to see a change , take all the oil lease money back and put it on the provinces debt , why should lease holders get it , no more selling leases for a profit , you pay $100,000 for a lease , you can't sell it , the gov can , or anything over the $100,000 goes back to pay down the debt

make all lease holders have the cows out by oct 1 , if not then oh well to sad , access is given and all gates must be open , no need to even ask for permission , only drive on marked roads and everything else is foot access ,

i think what needs to be done is inform the whole public , its mainly us hunters who are having trouble , if all those who love the outdoor got involved , say hikers, bird watchers, , whoever , have them do some screaming about the money thats being robbed from the taxpayers

i fully agree if someone owns land , that they have 100 % full right to do what they so please ,

i'm even ok with lease holders doing what they want to the land to better it for themselves or their cows , or even clearing it for crops so they can make more money for themselves , just don't try to stop us , the taxpayers who really OWN it from going on and doing a little hunting for a few days in the fall , heck you don't even OWN the deer or wildlife yet most of you's think it's your private little hunting ground and want it all ,

sick of it , you lease holders have it made , if it wasn't good for ya , then you'd be giving it back , so don't come on and whine or try to bull **** us that are in the know , and i hope it back fires for you

[sunsetrider2011]

Carry on, You have it all figured out.

There isn't any deer left on our leases so have at 'er. Lots of hunters though.

[dutch_m]

Originally Posted by waylow

There isn't any deer left on our leases so have at 'er. Lots of hunters though.

well sir , thats more then fair ,

[Duke11]

Ok just to give proper facts. Leaseland is not owned by the lease holder its alberta govnt. But the leaseholder does have the rights to sell there improvements. Example fences, dugout or wells. So figure it out. 160 acres of lease at $100 an acre is $16000. Fence that quarter approximately $8000 a mile at 2 miles is $16000. Add a dogout at $4000 or a well at $15000. The land is real cheap. NOT. So say the government wants to take and give the land to the public and take it away from the rancher. Ok they own the land but they have to pay the rancher for improvement. Figure it out there is a lot of lease land out there. Taxes go up to alberta residents to pay for the improvements and then plus alberta people have to pay government for the rest of the live for the lease taxes. Are you willing to do this. Maybe think about it a little. And as to lease land holders getting all the revenue thats bs. The average leaseland holders gets less than half. $1100-1200 a year to be exact. Deeded land is double. Nobody says where the other half of the money goes to. ITS THE GOVERNMENT. The $1100 the leaseholder gets is for loss of production.

As to giving the land to the public, I think its going to be a mistake. Yes there is alot of good people out there and only takes one to the reck it for everyone. But there has to be someone to manage this land. Not a free for all. Grass is very sensitive. Truck tracks will stay there for year. One person drives off trail and everyone thinks its a road all over the place.

[Deer Hunter]

http://albertawilderness.ca/issues/w...ostuch-lecture

Download the file and read it. Scammell (ex two time AFGA president, Fulton Trophy winner, Order of Bighorn etc) estimated that over $130,000,000/yr is getting away from the Alberta public on oil and gas revenue on grazing leases. And SRD continues to sell off these leases with no clue as to the "Cowboy Welfare" revenue stream. And then to get dicked around trying to access a lease to hunt?
Make this the issue it should be with your government. It obviously doesnt go over very well for those recieveing the cowboy wellfare cheques.... so expect some pi$$ing and moaning here.

[Duke11]

To be exact i have never got a cowboy welfare cheque. And i never will. Stop the ****ing and moaning. Its sounds like your doing more of that that me.

It all comes down to that someone needs to manage these lands. For the last 100 years it has been the leaseholder which do a very good job.

Have you ever been on a lease where the leaseholder doesnt care who accesses it. Start of hunting there is two main roads. By the end of hunting season there is 100 new road. So explain to me why some leaseholders do want you on the land. Leasehold bad stewarts of the land. Do think so. Your barking up the wrong tree. Maybe get all the hunters on track, get off there butts and maybe walk. A little fresh area wont hurt you. And Im pretty sure most of the leaseholders would let you on. You guys caused your own pain for getting access

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Duke11

To be exact i have never got a cowboy welfare cheque. And i never will. Stop the ****ing and moaning. Its sounds like your doing more of that that me.

So do you agree with the "cowboy welfare" oil and gas revenue system or not?
I agree with you on people driving all over the place. Thats not a very nice thing to do.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Duke11

To be exact i have never got a cowboy welfare cheque. And i never will. Stop the ****ing and moaning. Its sounds like your doing more of that that me.

It all comes down to that someone needs to manage these lands. For the last 100 years it has been the leaseholder which do a very good job.

Have you ever been on a lease where the leaseholder doesnt care who accesses it. Start of hunting there is two main roads. By the end of hunting season there is 100 new road. So explain to me why some leaseholders do want you on the land. Leasehold bad stewarts of the land. Do think so. Your barking up the wrong tree. Maybe get all the hunters on track, get off there butts and maybe walk. A little fresh area wont hurt you. And Im pretty sure most of the leaseholders would let you on. You guys caused your own pain for getting access

Why does someone "have to manage these lands"? What will happen to the land if they're not managed? Will they uninhabitable to humans and animals alike if there is nobody to keep the hunters out?

Fact is, the lease holder is getting a sweet deal, nobody's got a gun to their head making them lease the land. It's the greedy lease holders who are creating the problem. It's not their land any more than it is any other tax paying Albertan, it's not about the land being destroyed or abused by hunters, it about greed plain and simple.

[Duke11]

I do agree with leaseholders getting a paid for oil and gas activity. The money is for loss of production on the land that they lease. And if the government was to get it all. I still think they would blow it away on some stupid program and be wasted. Think your taxes will go down. I don't think so.

[Duke11]

Its not my land and if you read my other blog. You would see that. This is some of the most pristine land (native grass) out there and I think it needs to be managed. The government watches us on how we graze it. So what do you want the government to watch you how you use. Thats fine with me, let the government have all the oil and gas revenue and put the money towards getting more fish and wildlife officers to keep control of all the distruction happening to lease

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Duke11

To be exact i have never got a cowboy welfare cheque. And i never will. Stop the ****ing and moaning. Its sounds like your doing more of that that me.

It all comes down to that someone needs to manage these lands. For the last 100 years it has been the leaseholder which do a very good job.

Have you ever been on a lease where the leaseholder doesnt care who accesses it. Start of hunting there is two main roads. By the end of hunting season there is 100 new road. So explain to me why some leaseholders do want you on the land. Leasehold bad stewarts of the land. Do think so. Your barking up the wrong tree. Maybe get all the hunters on track, get off there butts and maybe walk. A little fresh area wont hurt you. And Im pretty sure most of the leaseholders would let you on. You guys caused your own pain for getting access

Originally Posted by Duke11

Its not my land and if you read my other blog. You would see that. This is some of the most pristine land (native grass) out there and I think it needs to be managed. The government watches us on how we graze it. So what do you want the government to watch you how you use. Thats fine with me, let the government have all the oil and gas revenue and put the money towards getting more fish and wildlife officers to keep control of all the distruction happening to lease

Foot access only. It's that simple. Everybody's happy.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Duke11

Its not my land and if you read my other blog. You would see that. This is some of the most pristine land (native grass) out there and I think it needs to be managed. The government watches us on how we graze it. So what do you want the government to watch you how you use. Thats fine with me, let the government have all the oil and gas revenue and put the money towards getting more fish and wildlife officers to keep control of all the distruction happening to lease

Do you have alink to your other blog?

[Duke11]

The problem is very few hunters want to walk anymore. It's bullet blazin and 4x4 roaring. So landowners have bad blood towards hunters. I agree if everyone would walk there would be a lot more access out there.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Duke11

I do agree with leaseholders getting a paid for oil and gas activity. The money is for loss of production on the land that they lease. And if the government was to get it all. I still think they would blow it away on some stupid program and be wasted. Think your taxes will go down. I don't think so.

The loss of production you refer to is better demonstrated with some numbers...

So the govt charges the leasholder ~$2.32/cow/month to graze. So maybe $1200/summer for 100 cows. Probably on a couple of sections in size for native prairie give or take.

Then an oil co comes along and drills one well on that section. $5-10K disturbance plus $1500/yr annual rental back to the leaseholder. Then they want to pipeline it in, another $5,000 disturbance paid to the leasholder.... Seems like that was a good well, then the oil co drills 8 more... Pretty soon that 1 or 2 sections of land that is costing the leasholder $1200/yr to graze his cows is providing him $80,000 initial disturbance plus an annual rental of 8 times $1500/yr or $12,000/yr.

Yeah I guess he's OK with the loss of production.... Who wouldnt want lost grazing production??

That is pretty good compensation for losing a bit of grass that he pays $1200/yr for. It should be noted that not all leases in this province have oil and gas revenue, just a very large percentage.

[saddleup]

You need to by an grazing lease.... infact there is one for sale right now on remax crowsnest pass... 224000$ plus gst.. 542 acres, then annual grazing fees, local taxes and upkeep such as roads, fencing water etc... yup shes all yours and you got your own private hunting area... but ya gotta buy cows........ oops that will be another 1500$ each and the aum is 105 so you do the math...... REAL CHEAP,., HAVE AT HER..........

Originally Posted by saddleup

You need to by an grazing lease.... infact there is one for sale right now on remax crowsnest pass... 224000$ plus gst.. 542 acres, then annual grazing fees, local taxes and upkeep such as roads, fencing water etc... yup shes all yours and you got your own private hunting area... but ya gotta buy cows........ oops that will be another 1500$ each and the aum is 105 so you do the math...... REAL CHEAP,., HAVE AT HER..........

Actually you couldn't do that...not legally anyhow...but I guess you are right....plenty do.......sad

[Duke11]

I'm not quite sure where you get your numbers from but most of that is on deeded land. And ya most of use ranchers are driving Ferrari and BMW I guess too. What do you drive?
To put it straight if you have some lease land with revenue you wouldn't be saying a thing. So my suggestion is go buy some cheap lease land. Buy some cows tractor feed etc. then you can start talking of how much the rancher is making.
Sounds like you got to much time on your hands. I'm looking for a hired hand to help feed cow. Paying good $12/hr (remember I don't have gas wells)

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by saddleup

You need to by an grazing lease.... infact there is one for sale right now on remax crowsnest pass... 224000$ plus gst.. 542 acres, then annual grazing fees, local taxes and upkeep such as roads, fencing water etc... yup shes all yours and you got your own private hunting area... but ya gotta buy cows........ oops that will be another 1500$ each and the aum is 105 so you do the math...... REAL CHEAP,., HAVE AT HER..........

This is a major issue, should be no sales of leases. If your done with it, it goes back to the Gov. and they put it back up.

[Duke11]

I love this. As a landowner of deeded land and lease. I was against paid hunting on private land but some of the comments out there I am for it Now. Lets tell all private land owners to get on board. Play with fire you'll get burnt