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  #61  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:48 AM
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catnthehat catnthehat is online now
 
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One of the big factors in military testing these days is whether or not tgrccartridge will be comparable with the rifles they are issuing- in this case the shorter semi auto actions .
Also the sections of the Government mentioned are not attached to the standard military decisions such as Army , Navy and Air Force.
And to confuse things a bit more, the Navy decisions may not be using what the
Army are issuing to general ranks and the soecisl forces like the Rangers and Seals may be using something different !
Our Armed Forces are a bit different but not much, case in Point the Canadian Rangers are using a different rifle and cartridge than the General devisions .
However? The 45/70, 30/40,303 British, 30’06,7.62 Nato and the 5.56 NATO have all served well for both military and hunting.
The big difference is that military strategies have changed but hunting animals has really not changed nearly as much and any of the last bunch of cartridges I have mentioned do quite well for most hunting applications - maybe not ALL but most.
At the end of the day the little differences will not matter in a sporting arm, however what a person what’s to shoot is the big difference .
Cat
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  #62  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:53 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I see nothing wrong with innovation that improve the quality of shooting sports or military defence, that's what advancements do I guess.

I'm like JD, I've owned a few firearms over the years, cleaned house buy selling off all the irons, handing some down to next of kin and friends.

Then I picked up a cartrage where my hunting days started, not the best,,, nor the worst.

One would think that folks that own the firearms they have would keep what they have,,, or follow the flow of change.

The old coals will be around for a loooooong time since there out there in the hands of shooters.

Good times in all categories fore sure.

Got to run since the Wolves are closing in. Ha
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  #63  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:32 AM
JD848 JD848 is online now
 
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The main reason for me buying this CM for my grand kid,is that I don't think he is ready for a bigger gun like my 300win.Plus my ears were starting to ring over all he talked about was this CM so to settle the noise and settle my thoughts on it ,I got him one.

HE loves to shoot it ,but I don't want him to develop a bit flinch which I noticed he had,not anything big ,but enough to bugger up his shooting skills.

I don't want him to be a 1000 yard shooter at all,because like any other kid he reads and watches tv on this long range hunting and that's not happening till he is old enough to figure out you don't need to shoot that far for hunting.

I want to develop a great shooter,but a way better hunter that respects ever thing he puts that rifle on without hesitation or thought,no thought what so ever just lift up that rifle and every thing in his body is in line from finger to his eye,in multiple shooting positions and scenarios . I want a great 300 yard shooter and then move on to bigger things,so the cm fills this application for the time being.


He has shot my 223 for 4 years now and the varget just disappears,i truly believe that if you start out the wrong way shooting it stays with you for a long time,some can correct there mistakes and some can't.

I love to shot my 300 win specially my new one and that's just in my blood,i don't need a 300 win to do my hunting ,but I shot it well and so it stay's till I say no more.When I use to guide it was my 300 win or my 7mm rm for decades.So endless hours of trigger time was put into these 2 and it was a love hate relationship for a bit with the win,but I tamed that deal.I still wish I never sold my 7mm stw with all the new bullet choice around today,that's one heck of a cartridge in the right hands.

Would I buy a 26 nosler in the future,hell ya just because I have always enjoy trying new things I never tried out,,so every one enjoy all that they own and go enjoy the outdoors and all it has to offer.Cheers

JD
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  #64  
Old 11-09-2018, 12:18 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
The fact that I chose 260 Rem as a handle was likely because 308 Win was already taken. I am not glossy eyed and have not promoted it as being a wonder cartridge. So much for the "handle analysis" and think we should stop that association before Stinky Coyote chimes in
I've chambered over 40 barrels and have 2 in 260 Rem. It is a fine cartridge and with Lapua brass can be reloaded to velocities beyond that achieved in the CM. Simply, powder volume counts!
The CM adds little to its older fraternal twin, the 6.5 X 47 which was the first born. Without quibbling over a few though in shoulder diameter, the only basic difference between the two is that the CM is 1.8mm longer. Don't think that fits into the realm of "revolutionary design" ?
Now, you want to talk "wonder cartridge", I have two for consideration. First is the 30BR which performs with distinction at 300m. Dandy game killer. Second is the 6 Dasher/variants which could be crowned the boss at 600 and is staring to get a name among the 1000 yd crowd.
Think I should ask the mods if I can change my handle to Dasher ?

You say you have 2 barrels chambered in 260 Remington, but do not state whether they are custom chamber chambers or chambered with a Saami speced reamer and held to Saami Specs regarding twist and COAL. You also say that with Lapua brass they can be re-loaded to velocities beyond that achieved by the CM. Is that with 140 Bergers, 143 ELD-X bullets or the new 150 Sierra's which fit nicely in a CM, especially if chambered in a Montana, Kimber or Winchester short action?
[IMG][/IMG]
You say that the CM adds little to its fraternal twin the 6.5 X47 Lapua which might be true if it had .250 FB to accommodate the 6.5 CM but as it was designed to run the 123 Scenar it doesn't even do that well with 125 accubonds and Partitions as they have to sit way down in the case well off the lands. Like the 260 Rem this leads to erratic pressures and even higher pressures/velocity due to pressure being exerted sideways on the bearing surface.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

You quote " Simply, powder volume counts!" suggesting that the 260 Rem gets more velocity because it has more case volume but that does not necessarily mean under the seated bullet. Nor does it mean that the bigger volume will get more velocity. You mention your friends 30 -30 and suggest that it is a "Wonder Cartridge" because of a few groups but perhaps it is because the 30-30 and its "rimmed twin" the 30 Remington have necks long enough to seat longer bullets in the neck unlike the 30 BR which is limited to 118-120 grain Flat base bullets in a properly throated chamber that allows them to seat in the neck and reach the lands. If bigger powder volume counts in determining velocity, as you suggested, why does the 30 BR get more velocity with a 120 grain bullets than a 6.5 -08 with 30% less powder as claimed by some 100-300 Score shooters? I think that the same may be said about the 308 but that does not make it more effective on game out to 300 yards, in fact the 6.5-08 or CM would have the advantage.

It is alright to have some fun "raining on the 6.5 CM parade" but not by making claims that are not entirely factual. Many of us know the "truth of the matter" but many young shooters may be fooled by this kind of rhetoric and make some foolish decisions. The modern cartridges starting with Alexander Arms and the 6.5 Grendel, Lapua with the 6.5X47 and Hornady with all of their new designs are doing what Remington and Winchester should have done a long time ago. The things that they have in common are , short powder column in an optimum sized chamber for caliber, necks long enough and properly throated for bullets to seat properly in the neck when seated to the lands, proper twist rate for modern long range VLD/Hybrid bullets although they do not all fit in Saami Speced magazines. As well the brass and FL dies are being made to closer match the Saami Minimum chambers like the 6mmPPC and the 6mm/30 BR cartridges that competitive shooters are using. While none of them are perfect they are close and certainly a step in the right direction, when compared to the past designs, as the average shooter eill have near BR accuracy from off the shelf rifles and ammunition.
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  #65  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:00 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
You say you have 2 barrels chambered in 260 Remington, but do not state whether they are custom chamber chambers or chambered with a Saami speced reamer and held to Saami Specs regarding twist and COAL. You also say that with Lapua brass they can be re-loaded to velocities beyond that achieved by the CM. Is that with 140 Bergers, 143 ELD-X bullets or the new 150 Sierra's which fit nicely in a CM, especially if chambered in a Montana, Kimber or Winchester short action?
[IMG][/IMG]
You say that the CM adds little to its fraternal twin the 6.5 X47 Lapua which might be true if it had .250 FB to accommodate the 6.5 CM but as it was designed to run the 123 Scenar it doesn't even do that well with 125 accubonds and Partitions as they have to sit way down in the case well off the lands. Like the 260 Rem this leads to erratic pressures and even higher pressures/velocity due to pressure being exerted sideways on the bearing surface.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

You quote " Simply, powder volume counts!" suggesting that the 260 Rem gets more velocity because it has more case volume but that does not necessarily mean under the seated bullet. Nor does it mean that the bigger volume will get more velocity. You mention your friends 30 -30 and suggest that it is a "Wonder Cartridge" because of a few groups but perhaps it is because the 30-30 and its "rimmed twin" the 30 Remington have necks long enough to seat longer bullets in the neck unlike the 30 BR which is limited to 118-120 grain Flat base bullets in a properly throated chamber that allows them to seat in the neck and reach the lands. If bigger powder volume counts in determining velocity, as you suggested, why does the 30 BR get more velocity with a 120 grain bullets than a 6.5 -08 with 30% less powder as claimed by some 100-300 Score shooters? I think that the same may be said about the 308 but that does not make it more effective on game out to 300 yards, in fact the 6.5-08 or CM would have the advantage.

It is alright to have some fun "raining on the 6.5 CM parade" but not by making claims that are not entirely factual. Many of us know the "truth of the matter" but many young shooters may be fooled by this kind of rhetoric and make some foolish decisions. The modern cartridges starting with Alexander Arms and the 6.5 Grendel, Lapua with the 6.5X47 and Hornady with all of their new designs are doing what Remington and Winchester should have done a long time ago. The things that they have in common are , short powder column in an optimum sized chamber for caliber, necks long enough and properly throated for bullets to seat properly in the neck when seated to the lands, proper twist rate for modern long range VLD/Hybrid bullets although they do not all fit in Saami Speced magazines. As well the brass and FL dies are being made to closer match the Saami Minimum chambers like the 6mmPPC and the 6mm/30 BR cartridges that competitive shooters are using. While none of them are perfect they are close and certainly a step in the right direction, when compared to the past designs, as the average shooter eill have near BR accuracy from off the shelf rifles and ammunition.
Good lord Iclund, lighten up! Maybe save some energy to defend that perfect cartridge that you lay claim to.
Yes, generally speaking, more powder counts, but of course that needs to be in relation to internal volume which I would expect you know?
My jest that the 30-30 could be considered a wonder cartridge based on the .311 5 consecutive, five shot groups will have to stand until you show us you can do that with any other cartridge. Remember, just 5 sub .311 groups on a single target panel...no notes, explanations, or diagrams! Sometimes, the proof just needs to be in the pudding to convince old hands like myself.
I’m glad you asked about the secret behind 30BR velocities... you know, how it pushes bullets real fast with a relatively small powder charge ... well, the secret there is to run a fast burning powder in a filled case. Get it?
Im not going down that “best on game at 300 yds” hole because I know that any game bullet placed in an animals boiler room is effective.
I sincerely apologize to any young shooters that I have “fooled” with my cavalier rhetoric and am thankful you brought it to my attention lest my comments result in the ruination of a whole generation of shooters. Than you again!
I would also like to thank you for schooling me on basics of efficient case design (short powder column,etc). Of course that was all news to me. I will be sure to pass that info on to my buddy...you know, the one that aggs .311 with a 30-30 and mid threes with a 303 British.
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  #66  
Old 11-09-2018, 03:27 PM
Ryan.M.Anderson Ryan.M.Anderson is offline
 
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You know 260Rem, sometimes you add a tonne of value to this forum, other times it seems like you just like to hear yourself talk (type). I thought the older generations were supposed to have thick skin but apparently the army choosing a different cartridge has shaken you to your core...

Iclund likes 6.5Creed, I shoot 6Br, another gentleman on here shoots his 300WM. They all work so no need to get all bent out of shape.

I hate to say it by the entire military industrial complex of the United states has probably a bit more knowledge about this than you do. It doesn't just come down to which cartridge is better. If that was the case the 308 would have been retired a long time ago (and no, let's not get into that please).
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  #67  
Old 11-09-2018, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Good lord Iclund, lighten up! Maybe save some energy to defend that perfect cartridge that you lay claim to.
Yes, generally speaking, more powder counts, but of course that needs to be in relation to internal volume which I would expect you know?
My jest that the 30-30 could be considered a wonder cartridge based on the .311 5 consecutive, five shot groups will have to stand until you show us you can do that with any other cartridge. Remember, just 5 sub .311 groups on a single target panel...no notes, explanations, or diagrams! Sometimes, the proof just needs to be in the pudding to convince old hands like myself.
I’m glad you asked about the secret behind 30BR velocities... you know, how it pushes bullets real fast with a relatively small powder charge ... well, the secret there is to run a fast burning powder in a filled case. Get it?
Im not going down that “best on game at 300 yds” hole because I know that any game bullet placed in an animals boiler room is effective.
I sincerely apologize to any young shooters that I have “fooled” with my cavalier rhetoric and am thankful you brought it to my attention lest my comments result in the ruination of a whole generation of shooters. Than you again!
I would also like to thank you for schooling me on basics of efficient case design (short powder column,etc). Of course that was all news to me. I will be sure to pass that info on to my buddy...you know, the one that aggs .311 with a 30-30 and mid threes with a 303 British.

What magnification of scope is he using and does he do it free hand or off a pack sack?
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  #68  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:14 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Good lord Iclund, lighten up! Maybe save some energy to defend that perfect cartridge that you lay claim to.
Yes, generally speaking, more powder counts, but of course that needs to be in relation to internal volume which I would expect you know?
My jest that the 30-30 could be considered a wonder cartridge based on the .311 5 consecutive, five shot groups will have to stand until you show us you can do that with any other cartridge. Remember, just 5 sub .311 groups on a single target panel...no notes, explanations, or diagrams! Sometimes, the proof just needs to be in the pudding to convince old hands like myself.
I’m glad you asked about the secret behind 30BR velocities... you know, how it pushes bullets real fast with a relatively small powder charge ... well, the secret there is to run a fast burning powder in a filled case. Get it?
Im not going down that “best on game at 300 yds” hole because I know that any game bullet placed in an animals boiler room is effective.
I sincerely apologize to any young shooters that I have “fooled” with my cavalier rhetoric and am thankful you brought it to my attention lest my comments result in the ruination of a whole generation of shooters. Than you again!
I would also like to thank you for schooling me on basics of efficient case design (short powder column,etc). Of course that was all news to me. I will be sure to pass that info on to my buddy...you know, the one that aggs .311 with a 30-30 and mid threes with a 303 British.
You were having so much fun raining on the 6.5 CM parade that you were getting a bit loose with the truth. LOL Glad you got it that pressure/velocity relates more to internal case volume and relative powder burn rate than it does to more powder. Might add, for the benefit of those who don't know, that relative powder burn rate goes up as internal case volume/powder density goes down. I got the fact that a light for caliber bullet can be pushed fast with a fast burning powder especially in a small case that can be filled. I have many examples of that in the perfect cartridge that I lay claim to as well as many examples of heavy for caliber bullets pushed by a full case of slower burning powders. Many of them shoot shot sub 1/3 MOA groups and would likely do 5 sub 3.11" groups but I am not capable of that as I have no BR equipment and cannot hold off the bipod like I once did.

However if you or your buddy can work up 20 or so different loads, with any one of your rifles that shoot like that I would be impressed. Even more so if all of the groups you shot during load work up agged under 2/3" like the 153 targets my cartridge, that you alluded to, did in the first summer of load development. Smallest 5 shot group 0.19", some groups 10 shot and some groups shot at 300 yards with many under .311 MOA. By the way all of the loads are near 100% load density and all bullets seat with bearing surface ahead of the neck shoulder junction and can reach the lands while properly seated. My drawings show that this is the only 20 caliber cartridge, that I know of, that fills all of these desirable design parameters and fits and feeds from a saami 223 length magazine. Makes a great varmint round and outdoes a Saami 22-250 to 500 yards on coyotes so it more than fulfilled my design parameters.

I am not going to expend any more energy defending my perfect cartridge because guys like you have nothing better to do than try to make your pet BR cartridges look better than the well designed up and coming hunting cartridges. I have put up with this kind of BS for long enough and hope others have to. My energy will be much better spent putting together the perfectly designed 270 Precision Hunting Cartridge that fits and feeds from Winchester (WSM)Model 70, Montana Rifle Company and Kimber Short Action rifles that are going to become more popular now that they are beginning to chamber them in 6.5 PRC. It is optimized for the Nosler 150 LRAB and the Hornady 145 ELD-X and with a little luck the Berger 170 EOL. I look forward to you trying to make out that your 300 BR, or your friends 30-30, make a better long range moose or target combination than any of these three bullets running 2950- 3150 fps and printing 1/2 MOA with around 62 grains of powder or less.
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  #69  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:36 PM
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If he put the time and $$ into a 6.5 CM, could buddy tighten those groups up? Put enough time and $$ into a Toyota and you can get it to lap the Ring faster than a 911. Does that mean Toyota is a better performer than Porsche?
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  #70  
Old 11-09-2018, 04:37 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ryan.M.Anderson View Post
You know 260Rem, sometimes you add a tonne of value to this forum, other times it seems like you just like to hear yourself talk (type). I thought the older generations were supposed to have thick skin but apparently the army choosing a different cartridge has shaken you to your core...

Iclund likes 6.5Creed, I shoot 6Br, another gentleman on here shoots his 300WM. They all work so no need to get all bent out of shape.

I hate to say it by the entire military industrial complex of the United states has probably a bit more knowledge about this than you do. It doesn't just come down to which cartridge is better. If that was the case the 308 would have been retired a long time ago (and no, let's not get into that please).
Goodness, sounds like my ribbing touched a soft spot? Way to late for me to withdraw the “girls gun” post so all I can do at this point is to appologize to those feeling offended.
For the record, I think the CM is a fine cartridge but it is not a revolutionary design, nor is it any more “accurate” than a host of other mid powered cartridges.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:52 PM
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Goodness, sounds like my ribbing touched a soft spot? Way to late for me to withdraw the “girls gun” post so all I can do at this point is to appologize to those feeling offended.
For the record, I think the CM is a fine cartridge but it is not a revolutionary design, nor is it any more “accurate” than a host of other mid powered cartridges.
So what you're saying is that the 6.5 creedmoor is halfway between a 243 win and 7mm-08? Maybe a diagram drawing would help explain where it has super powers beyond any other cartridge before it's time....
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  #72  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:08 PM
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So what you're saying is that the 6.5 creedmoor is halfway between a 243 win and 7mm-08? Maybe a diagram drawing would help explain where it has super powers beyond any other cartridge before it's time....
Man the butt hurt is thick hear. Why all the jealousy? Obviously something is revolutionary about it, otherwise the military wouldn’t spend millions of dollars switching to the Creedmoor. Get over it.

Sheesh.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:18 PM
Ryan.M.Anderson Ryan.M.Anderson is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Goodness, sounds like my ribbing touched a soft spot? Way to late for me to withdraw the “girls gun” post so all I can do at this point is to appologize to those feeling offended.
For the record, I think the CM is a fine cartridge but it is not a revolutionary design, nor is it any more “accurate” than a host of other mid powered cartridges.
Your reading comprehension must be decreasing with your age.

The men and women who will use this cartridge are more manly than most folks on this forum (you and me included). If the creed is a girl cartridge then so is the 260 - you said yourself they are pretty much the same.

Quit hating progress and change - maybe you will learn something.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:19 PM
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Man the butt hurt is thick hear. Why all the jealousy? Obviously something is revolutionary about it, otherwise the military wouldn’t spend millions of dollars switching to the Creedmoor. Get over it.

Sheesh.
I dont understand the term butt hurt. Please explain what your lingo means and how it applies to what you quoted.
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  #75  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:22 PM
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I dont understand the term butt hurt. Please explain what your lingo means and how it applies to what you quoted.
Read post 73 and try to put it together.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:27 PM
Nyksta Nyksta is online now
 
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Read post 73 and try to put it together.
You quoted me and chose the words. No idea what you are on about
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:29 PM
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So what you're saying is that the 6.5 creedmoor is halfway between a 243 win and 7mm-08? Maybe a diagram drawing would help explain where it has super powers beyond any other cartridge before it's time....
I’m sure someone will correct me if I get this wrong. About 2006 the 6.5 X 47L was registered with CIP. (CIP is the “European” standards organization similar to SAAMI). About 2007 the 30TC was registered with SAAMI. (The TC body case dimensions were very similar ... within a few thousandths ... to the ‘47...but the case was lengthened 1.8mm). Later, the 30TC was necked down to 6.5 and registered with SAAMI as the CM.
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  #78  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:40 PM
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You quoted me and chose the words. No idea what you are on about
I must have read into your post wrong, I apologize. Please disregard my statement.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan.M.Anderson View Post
Your reading comprehension must be decreasing with your age.
The men and women who will use this cartridge are more manly than most folks on this forum (you and me included). If the creed is a girl cartridge then so is the 260 - you said yourself they are pretty much the same.
Quit hating progress and change - maybe you will learn something.
Did you say the men and “women” that will use this cartridge are more “manly” than most folks on this forum? .
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:47 PM
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I must have read into your post wrong, I apologize. Please disregard my statement.
Sounds good. I think all these military rifkes and all these hunters should stop fighting over cubic mL of volume and just get out sharpening their skills with whatever cartridge is their favorite and know where they shine.
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  #81  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:00 PM
Ryan.M.Anderson Ryan.M.Anderson is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Did you say the men and “women” that will use this cartridge are more “manly” than most folks on this forum? .
All active service members that use this cartridge, men and women, are more manly than those of us who have not served.

So yes, that is what I said. The sacrifice these people make is incredibly courageous.
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  #82  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:12 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I bet after this debate that there is no chance that the trusty 45/70 Alamo Special will return to active service.

At least we had a glimmer of hope that it was going to happen. Ha
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  #83  
Old 11-09-2018, 06:17 PM
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Don you crack me up!!
The 45/70 is still in active service , just not in the military ranks of course, but it is still popular within some sporting crowds!
Cat
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Old 11-09-2018, 06:21 PM
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^^^ Ha.

Always glad to cheer up the crowd when I can Cat

I fear Butt Hurt
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  #85  
Old 11-09-2018, 07:48 PM
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i fear butt hurt
😂😂😂
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:03 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I had to throw in the 45/70 comment because of my daily horoscope in todays news paper.

Dear Don, don't take life to serious, watch out for Butt Hurt,,, and my lucky numbers are 19, 06, 30, 06, 700. Ha

It left me scratching my noodle for a moment,,, I hope those news paper folks weren't making fun of my out-dated Remington.
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  #87  
Old 11-09-2018, 09:50 PM
stevens stevens is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
You say you have 2 barrels chambered in 260 Remington, but do not state whether they are custom chamber chambers or chambered with a Saami speced reamer and held to Saami Specs regarding twist and COAL. You also say that with Lapua brass they can be re-loaded to velocities beyond that achieved by the CM. Is that with 140 Bergers, 143 ELD-X bullets or the new 150 Sierra's which fit nicely in a CM, especially if chambered in a Montana, Kimber or Winchester short action?
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You say that the CM adds little to its fraternal twin the 6.5 X47 Lapua which might be true if it had .250 FB to accommodate the 6.5 CM but as it was designed to run the 123 Scenar it doesn't even do that well with 125 accubonds and Partitions as they have to sit way down in the case well off the lands. Like the 260 Rem this leads to erratic pressures and even higher pressures/velocity due to pressure being exerted sideways on the bearing surface.
[IMG][/IMG]
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You quote " Simply, powder volume counts!" suggesting that the 260 Rem gets more velocity because it has more case volume but that does not necessarily mean under the seated bullet. Nor does it mean that the bigger volume will get more velocity. You mention your friends 30 -30 and suggest that it is a "Wonder Cartridge" because of a few groups but perhaps it is because the 30-30 and its "rimmed twin" the 30 Remington have necks long enough to seat longer bullets in the neck unlike the 30 BR which is limited to 118-120 grain Flat base bullets in a properly throated chamber that allows them to seat in the neck and reach the lands. If bigger powder volume counts in determining velocity, as you suggested, why does the 30 BR get more velocity with a 120 grain bullets than a 6.5 -08 with 30% less powder as claimed by some 100-300 Score shooters? I think that the same may be said about the 308 but that does not make it more effective on game out to 300 yards, in fact the 6.5-08 or CM would have the advantage.

It is alright to have some fun "raining on the 6.5 CM parade" but not by making claims that are not entirely factual. Many of us know the "truth of the matter" but many young shooters may be fooled by this kind of rhetoric and make some foolish decisions. The modern cartridges starting with Alexander Arms and the 6.5 Grendel, Lapua with the 6.5X47 and Hornady with all of their new designs are doing what Remington and Winchester should have done a long time ago. The things that they have in common are , short powder column in an optimum sized chamber for caliber, necks long enough and properly throated for bullets to seat properly in the neck when seated to the lands, proper twist rate for modern long range VLD/Hybrid bullets although they do not all fit in Saami Speced magazines. As well the brass and FL dies are being made to closer match the Saami Minimum chambers like the 6mmPPC and the 6mm/30 BR cartridges that competitive shooters are using. While none of them are perfect they are close and certainly a step in the right direction, when compared to the past designs, as the average shooter eill have near BR accuracy from off the shelf rifles and ammunition.

x2 checkmate
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  #88  
Old 11-09-2018, 10:35 PM
JD848 JD848 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
Don you crack me up!!
The 45/70 is still in active service , just not in the military ranks of course, but it is still popular within some sporting crowds!
Cat
X3 On that one.Don always has a sense of humour.cracked me up to.

JD
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  #89  
Old 11-10-2018, 06:47 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is online now
 
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I was in the military at one point in my life and for those that think because the military use it then it's gotta be good, this is not always true. I'm sure the cm works fine.
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  #90  
Old 11-10-2018, 04:18 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
 
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Location: Rimbey, AB
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
I’m sure someone will correct me if I get this wrong. About 2006 the 6.5 X 47L was registered with CIP. (CIP is the “European” standards organization similar to SAAMI). About 2007 the 30TC was registered with SAAMI. (The TC body case dimensions were very similar ... within a few thousandths ... to the ‘47...but the case was lengthened 1.8mm). Later, the 30TC was necked down to 6.5 and registered with SAAMI as the CM.
That is correct about the 6.5X47 Lapua being the first 6.5 based on an improved 7.62 Nato case. They optimized it to the 123 Scenar by moving the shoulder back by about 0.155 adding a 30 degree shoulder and a 0.300" neck with a 1.8504 trim length. The Max COAL of 2.795", likely with 123 Scenar seated near the lands, made it a true "Rem Short Action" cartridge. However the case taper remained relatively the same as the 308 at 0.015" which gave it about 6 grains less water capacity without the neck.

The 30 TC was the first attempt to make a modern 30 cal design on the Nato case. They moved the shoulder back 0.048" while taking it from 23 to 30 degrees. This left a long neck which they shortened to 0.266" by trimming to 1.9250". However they blew the shoulder out by about 0.010" leaving only about 0.007" taper thus leaving about 3 grains more water capacity under the bullet than the 6.5X47. Simply necked 6.5 and throated the same as the CM the 150 SMK would seat to the lands at 2.960" as this drawing shows:
[IMG][/IMG]

The 6.5 CM, on the other hand, has the shoulder moved back by 0.022 leaving a longer neck which was trimmed to 1.920". The following picture shows the CM with a 150 SMK seated to the lands at 2.935" which is just short enough to fit in clip magazines like the Sako 75 III at 2.952".
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This is what my 260 Extreme would have looked like and how the 260 Remington should have looked like:
[IMG][/IMG]

An enterprising fellow came up with a version very similar to my EXTREME design that is performing very well. See 6mm AR link which includes a good comparison to the 6.5 x 47: http://6mmar.com/65_SuperLR.php
[IMG][/IMG]

This shows how the 6.5 CM is set up to handle the heavier bullets in a modern design that Remington could have came up with instead of the 260 Rem. All they would have had to do is design an Intermediate length action that would have been perfect for the 7mm 08 as well and had Saami spec the COALat 2.955". However Hornady made the same COAL mistake that hopefully they rectify by applying to Saami to have the COAL changed. Life would be perfect for the 6.5 CM fans as some manufacturers are making rifles with long enough magazines.
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