Baiting In Alberta

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by pikeslayer22

Agreed with everything you said, but dont think for a minute that their is not a bunch of guys on this forum that don't have the skills nor the passion to hunt just as hard as these guys do...but without the attractant it adds a whole new perspective to the hunt and i seriously doubt without it half the deer they killed would have been killed! In fact i would challenge them to drop the bait pile for a year and try it! That being said i do have a tremendous amout of respect for these guys and i love the show...

If you follow the show there are team members who have taken some very mature animals in Alberta with no bait and just plain hard work and skill

I agree there are a ton of sportsmen and women with equal or greater tallents than all these shows put together, they just don't film and share with the general public which is their choice

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Fair enough but again...what's the upside?

I am pretty sure a few have had the chance to read what Cody wrote in regards to your question in Gary's publication.. There certainly are upsides to a controled situation, but I really can't see many downsides myself....

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I am pretty sure a few have had the chance to read what Cody wrote in regards to your question in Gary's publication.. There certainly are upsides to a controled situation, but I really can't see many downsides myself....

I'd still like to hear an example of an upside...easy to say there are lots of them but it seems harder to give an example of one. I see the downsides but am willing to be educated on the upsides.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So if baiting is that ineffective...why would anyone want to see it legalized here? I'm still looking for the upside.

Hey sheep
I'm not picking on you, just debating is all...... I am slightly ticked off with the srd and what went on around home.... Can poke holes in their efforts all day long and for me it became a game of politics/assumptions...Have they ruined 236 , lets just say I hunted real hard to try and fill my mule buck tag this year, what used to be a land of plenty of 170-180 mule bucks isn't such the case anymore....Never seen too many mature mule bucks in 2 weeks of hunting..... Just to clear the air, I'm hoping the deer poulation will return around home , I'm not getting any younger ,

One upside of baiting is one is usually hunting from a tree stand or hunting blind..Should have a standing shot and a clean kill..Unlike road hunting.. Also One will sometimes have pictures of a deer they may particularily like or decide to harvest..... So when it actually does make a mistake you will harvest the deer your after with out ground shrinkage , well possibly....lol... But the same can be achieved in Alberta putting a camera over a scrape
It may also help a few deer particularily bucks survive a hard winter or atleast help, after the rut..... I have a bait still going in Sask and have left my cameras out to see if the particular deer i was after will hit the bait again, and hope my efforts will help him recharge a bit after the rut
Of course this is just my humble opinion, For some people it's a ethics thing and I respect that..... then don't do it plain and simple.....I personally enjoy seeing deer up close and personal, and can't wait for my Sask hunt every year.... I love Sask and their deer numbers.... Might come down to management efforts.... Don't know
Nikon

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Fair enough but again...what's the upside?

If someone is looking to tag just any deer, baiting would help. It gives a controlled environment for shooting and gives the hunter mostly the same advantages that it gives bear baiters. ( I'm not comparing bears to deer so save the rant)

On the other hand, it has been proven that cwd is spread faster in large herds. Bait stations mimic this and imo, any non-essential activity that has a remote chance of spreading the disease should be avoided.

[double gun]

Upsides to baiting? How about new or young hunters getting a chance to look over their doe, get used to seeing them up close, have time to calm down and make a clean kill shot. Or the guy with limited land or permission, he can hopefully attract a deer to the area he can hunt. Or at least move his spot off the field away from road hunters.

At the very least get pics of what hanging around, allowing the hunter to target a specific animal, or help decide what animal should be killed for management.

Originally Posted by NIKON

Hey sheep
I'm not picking on you, just debating is all...... I am slightly ticked off with the srd and what went on around home.... Can poke holes in their efforts all day long and for me it became a game of politics/assumptions...Have they ruined 236 , lets just say I hunted real hard to try and fill my mule buck tag this year, what used to be a land of plenty of 170-180 mule bucks isn't such the case anymore....Never seen too many mature mule bucks in 2 weeks of hunting..... Just to clear the air, I'm hoping the deer poulation will return around home , I'm not getting any younger ,

One upside of baiting is one is usually hunting from a tree stand or hunting blind..Should have a standing shot and a clean kill..Unlike road hunting.. Also One will sometimes have pictures of a deer they may particularily like or decide to harvest..... So when it actually does make a mistake you will harvest the deer your after with out ground shrinkage , well possibly....lol... But the same can be achieved in Alberta putting a camera over a scrape
It may also help a few deer particularily bucks survive a hard winter or atleast help, after the rut..... I have a bait still going in Sask and have left my cameras out to see if the particular deer i was after will hit the bait again, and hope my efforts will help him recharge a bit after the rut
Of course this is just my humble opinion, For some people it's a ethics thing and I respect that..... then don't do it plain and simple.....I personally enjoy seeing deer up close and personal, and can't wait for my Sask hunt every year.... I love Sask and their deer numbers.... Might come down to management efforts.... Don't know
Nikon

I have no doubt deer numbers are way down where you live...that was kind of the whole point of the cull. You seem determined to debate the merits of the cull with me and I haven't stated an opinion. I understand why they did it but I haven't stated whether I agree or not......since we are talking about assumptions. Let's not hijack this thread anymore and stick to discussing baiting...not whether the CWD cull was merited or not because you have no idea where I stand and haven't done me the courtesy of asking

There in no assumption in the fact that crowding deer in an area where they urinate and deficate on food spreads disease more readily. It's just a simple fact. That's why I don't want to see baiting in Alberta...nothing to do with ethics. Pretty much the same way I look at game/hunt farms.

[Ultimate Predator]

Lazy mans way baiting deer challenge a buck try patterning them move when they change there pattern drives u insane sometimes im feeding deer after the season got about twenty eating int the yard 3- 4 good bucks could walk out the door and arrow one at 20yrds simple baiting deer is not hunting deer 100%AGAINST IT

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by mmiddlemiss

I am fairly new to reading all these threads, so I am sure that this topic has been discussed before.

I am wondering what everyone's thoughts/comments are if Alberta legalized baiting deer?

I am not saying that I want this to happen or that I would agree with it, just wanted to know where everyone else stands on this topic.

For starters, the ETHICS of hunting ungulates over bait is not a concern to me.

I feel that baiting ungulates should be illegal for recreational hunting and Non-hunting purposes.

Why?

Most importantly, Baiting DOES increase the risk of disease transmission between animals. Those claiming that there is no proof are blowing smoke. There are now many research projects that have concluded that baiting ungulates significantly increases transmission rates of diseases like CWD, Bluetongue and Tuberulosis.

The disease issue is not just about wildlife. The potential for massive financial damages to the Agricultural sector due to potential cross infection from wildlife to livestock is worrysome.

Allowing baiting of ungulates simply because some "want to" is not justifiable versus the potential ramification due to disease issues.



It is interesting that once again Canadians are playing catch up with American (usa) social trends. We are so far behind that most are not paying attention the present trend regarding ungulate baiting in the US.

Most jurisdictions in the USA are now trying to reverse present laws and make baiting of ungulates Illegal! They have been through all the problems associated with this practice, and are paying for the negative impacts that come along with baiting.



I hope there is a chance that Albertan hunters will be wise enough to learn from others mistakes and Never allow baiting for hunting ungulates, and to make baiting ungulates for other recreational purposes illegal as well.

[pottymouth]

Why is getting away from road hunters the only argument for baiting. Guys shoot big deer here and compete with the same road hunters and poachers. You can't change people , you can only change how you react to them. So change your area or your style.

Baiting also becomes a rich man's sport. If you can afford a 5 gallon bucket of Coates per week. Maybe the guy beside you can afford 5 tonnes every 3rd day. Now the guy with the deeper pocket will have more opportunities. Then guys will complain how that's not fair.
Kinda like the ministers tag threads... or what happens when someone else shoots a deer of your bait ??? Will it be flying fists or judicial compensation ? What about the deer that become habituated to the free food, and depend on it. What happens when the food stops and the winter turns ugly on the young deer that don't know better.

Baiting is just more headaches and problems for hunters , co's and wildlife.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Why is getting away from road hunters the only argument for baiting. Guys shoot big deer here and compete with the same road hunters and poachers. You can't change people , you can only change how you react to them. So change your area or your style.

Baiting also becomes a rich man's sport. If you can afford a 5 gallon bucket of Coates per week. Maybe the guy beside you can afford 5 tonnes every 3rd day. Now the guy with the deeper pocket will have more opportunities. Then guys will complain how that's not fair.
Kinda like the ministers tag threads... or what happens when someone else shoots a deer of your bait ??? Will it be flying fists or judicial compensation ? What about the deer that become habituated to the free food, and depend on it. What happens when the food stops and the winter turns ugly on the young deer that don't know better.

Baiting is just more headaches and problems for hunters , co's and wildlife.

Agreed...and guys are complaining about conflicts with outfitters now? Guess who would be doing the bulk of baiting.....on both private and public land if it were legalized.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'd still like to hear an example of an upside...easy to say there are lots of them but it seems harder to give an example of one. I see the downsides but am willing to be educated on the upsides.

CB and Double brought forth a couple, this controlled enviroment could, but does not prevent, rushed decisions and or actions in the field. This may decrease the chance of wounded game not recovered.

Introducing new sportsmen and women in controlled enviroments brings the experience home and become more personal than watching your game from a far or flee as they sense danger..

So if more new sportsmen and women were attracked to our passion, and if there was less of a chance of wounded game, would this not be of benifit to our future ?

What about youth and senior's ? May keep some old timers in the game longer as their health may not allow miles of tracks like they use too... Or the youth, may be the ticket to having junior keep his attention span long enough to throw away his electronic devices and enjoy morther nature

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I have no doubt deer numbers are way down where you live...that was kind of the whole point of the cull. You seem determined to debate the merits of the cull with me and I haven't stated an opinion. I understand why they did it but I haven't stated whether I agree or not......since we are talking about assumptions. Let's not hijack this thread anymore and stick to discussing baiting...not whether the CWD cull was merited or not because you have no idea where I stand and haven't done me the courtesy of asking

There in no assumption in the fact that crowding deer in an area where they urinate and deficate on food spreads disease more readily. It's just a simple fact. That's why I don't want to see baiting in Alberta...nothing to do with ethics. Pretty much the same way I look at game/hunt farms.

OK sheep
Since you are determined to skate the question, Here it is....Give us all your thoughts on what went down in Alberta along the border , based on alot of assumptions
"There in no assumption in the fact that crowding deer in an area where they urinate and deficate on food spreads disease more readily. It's just a simple fact. "
Now I believe you made an assumption baiting for a short period of time wasn't going to spread the disease ...... And from your comment I think your assuming they were able to achieve 100% and kill every deer that came in contact with the deer baits they had put out ,
"I supect so they could cull a whole lot of deer in a very short period of time."

So give us your thoughts please on the deer cull by the srd using baiting techniques
Thanks in advance

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

For starters, the ETHICS of hunting ungulates over bait is not a concern to me.

I feel that baiting ungulates should be illegal for recreational hunting and Non-hunting purposes.

Why?

Most importantly, Baiting DOES increase the risk of disease transmission between animals. Those claiming that there is no proof are blowing smoke. There are now many research projects that have concluded that baiting ungulates significantly increases transmission rates of diseases like CWD, Bluetongue and Tuberulosis.

The disease issue is not just about wildlife. The potential for massive financial damages to the Agricultural sector due to potential cross infection from wildlife to livestock is worrysome.

Allowing baiting of ungulates simply because some "want to" is not justifiable versus the potential ramification due to disease issues.



It is interesting that once again Canadians are playing catch up with American (usa) social trends. We are so far behind that most are not paying attention the present trend regarding ungulate baiting in the US.

Most jurisdictions in the USA are now trying to reverse present laws and make baiting of ungulates Illegal! They have been through all the problems associated with this practice, and are paying for the negative impacts that come along with baiting.



I hope there is a chance that Albertan hunters will be wise enough to learn from others mistakes and Never allow baiting for hunting ungulates, and to make baiting ungulates for other recreational purposes illegal as well.

WB, I do respect your position, but have to disagree How can there be as you say "Proof" that baiting spreads these diseases we are all concerbed about ? What they did a lab experiment I have not read about ? Like really, silly as it sounds, ungulates will always come in contact with each other no matter what, period. We can't prevent the natural instincts of these ungulates, it is what it is really.

In a nut shell, ungulates will continue to gather at ranchers salt licks, hay stacks, winter cattle feeding areas, and farmers grain piles and leaky bins no matter what. We can not prevent this, contact will happen and disease will spread... In nature the ungulates are very social as well, contact is made and areas shared at all time of the year..

[saskwhitey]

In this months issue of north American Whitetail there is a story of a guy who shot a 208 inch whitetail in maryland. His strategy that finally got him the buck was to ride in on the quad, got in the treestand while his friend put the bait out, and then the buck came in after the quad left and he shot his big buck. I was actually surprised that the magazine made him out to be this great hunter. I thought it was a little anti-climactic. I wouldn't want to take my big buck that way. That being said, I have hunted over baits when I was in school out in Saskatchewan, but we never had a big buck come in during the 4 years I was out there. Just pictures at night. I think it brings the bucks into the area, but not necassarily to the bait. I shot one decent buck on a game trail leading to the bait. We have actually not baited the last few years, because we haven't seen any success from it. They do however put some food out for the deer to help them survive the hard winters. Baiting seems to work when it is in the forest and the snow is heavy, and the deer have to chose between eating or death. I saw four guys take 4 pretty nice buck in two days out of the same stand in the forest. They even said they shot two of the bucks an hour apart. The areas I hunt, have lots of farming and bush, which gives the big bucks lots of other options for food sources.

[pre64]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

CB and Double brought forth a couple, this controlled enviroment could, but does not prevent, rushed decisions and or actions in the field. This may decrease the chance of wounded game not recovered.

Introducing new sportsmen and women in controlled enviroments brings the experience home and become more personal than watching your game from a far or flee as they sense danger..

So if more new sportsmen and women were attracked to our passion, and if there was less of a chance of wounded game, would this not be of benifit to our future ?

What about youth and senior's ? May keep some old timers in the game longer as their health may not allow miles of tracks like they use too... Or the youth, may be the ticket to having junior keep his attention span long enough to throw away his electronic devices and enjoy morther nature

If that's hunting then maybe those "sportsmen/women, senoirs and junior" (and Cody Robbins) should head to the "controlled" envirnoment of a game farm to kill a deer.

Originally Posted by NIKON

OK sheep
Since you are determined to skate the question, Here it is....Give us all your thoughts on what went down in Alberta along the border , based on alot of assumptions
"There in no assumption in the fact that crowding deer in an area where they urinate and deficate on food spreads disease more readily. It's just a simple fact. "
Now I believe you made an assumption baiting for a short period of time wasn't going to spread the disease ...... And from your comment I think your assuming they were able to achieve 100% and kill every deer that came in contact with the deer baits they had put out ,
"I supect so they could cull a whole lot of deer in a very short period of time."

So give us your thoughts please on the deer cull by the srd using baiting techniques
Thanks in advance

You and your assumptions seem to have it al figured out...LOL

Apparently you have no interest in listening to my thoughts but would rather just tell me what I'm assuming......I find that very rude....and this is not the thread for it as I stated above. I tried to be polite with you...now I'm just done before I sink to your level. Good day!

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

In a nut shell, ungulates will continue to gather at ranchers salt licks, hay stacks, winter cattle feeding areas, and farmers grain piles and leaky bins no matter what. We can not prevent this, contact will happen and disease will spread... In nature the ungulates are very social as well, contact is made and areas shared at all time of the year..

So we should further exacerbate those problems you pointed out by compounding them with additional concetrated feeding locations?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You and your assumptions seem to have it al figured out...LOL

Apparently you have no interest in listening to my thoughts but would rather just tell me what I'm assuming......I find that very rude....and this is not the thread for it as I stated above. I tried to be polite with you...now I'm just done before I sink to your level. Good day!

Your the better man sheep

You have lots of comments based on alot of assumptions

Sink to my level?......

I guess one shouldn't put out comments you can't back
I feel alot of sportman here were ok with the cull as long as it didn't effect their hunting area, and believe me if it were done in your back yard you would have alot more to say about it ..... There would be alot of hunters up in arms seeing their hunting zone completely flattened by the srd and cwd tags...... The srd were baiting , no secret spreading cwd by baiting as you say doing exactly what they were apparently trying to avoid........ That was my point , but i guess it was ok by you and your assumptions baiting for a short period of time

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

CB and Double brought forth a couple, this controlled enviroment could, but does not prevent, rushed decisions and or actions in the field. This may decrease the chance of wounded game not recovered.

Introducing new sportsmen and women in controlled enviroments brings the experience home and become more personal than watching your game from a far or flee as they sense danger..

So if more new sportsmen and women were attracked to our passion, and if there was less of a chance of wounded game, would this not be of benifit to our future ?

What about youth and senior's ? May keep some old timers in the game longer as their health may not allow miles of tracks like they use too... Or the youth, may be the ticket to having junior keep his attention span long enough to throw away his electronic devices and enjoy morther nature

If a hunter wants to hunt or just watch deer i would be willing to take them out, old or young and watch or harvest a doe if that's what makes their hair blow back...As far as taking them out the first time to a bait pile i am not to sure what their thoughts would be of the actual kill? The few people i know that don't hunt and watch some of the shows where deer are harvested this way have always had the same statement "Why not just shoot a beef it tastes alot better and are about as wild"

[double gun]

Hunters against fighting for more opportunities is sad to me. Seems like every year there are more and more rules, and less and less opportunity for hunters. If it was legal and you don't agree with it, don't use it. That would be your choice, nobody would be forced to bait. I don't think shooting a treed cougar is sporting - but I am certainly not against the guy who does. If you want to, go for it. I really hope the guys against deer baiting, have never baited bears, wolves, or coyotes.

Originally Posted by double gun

I really hope the guys against deer baiting, have never baited bears, wolves, or coyotes.

Why, is CWD an issue with them?

[double gun]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Why, is CWD an issue with them?

Disease is disease. Was cwd always around? If there wasn't cwd you wouldn't be against baiting?

[thunderjet]

It has been mentioned by many in this discussion tht baiting would help to eliminate a lot of the road hunting......how so?

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by double gun

Disease is disease. Was cwd always around?

More assumptions i guess.....LOL.... Alot of people have bought what they are selling that's for sure.... Hey but it created jobs , and they did try and stop it at the border....GEEZZ

Nikon

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Why, is CWD an issue with them?

Damn, beat me to it.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by NIKON

More assumptions i guess.....LOL.... Alot of people have bought what they are selling that's for sure.... Hey but it created jobs , and they did try and stop it at the border....GEEZZ

Nikon

Most would agree that the cull could have been handled better, but lets look at today.
Why would someone be in favour of an activity that would, to any degree, increase the spread of disease.

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by NIKON

Your the better man sheep

You have lots of comments based on alot of assumptions

Sink to my level?......

I guess one shouldn't put out comments you can't back
I feel alot of sportman here were ok with the cull as long as it didn't effect their hunting area, and believe me if it were done in your back yard you would have alot more to say about it ..... There would be alot of hunters up in arms seeing their hunting zone completely flattened by the srd and cwd tags...... The srd were baiting , no secret spreading cwd by baiting as you say doing exactly what they were apparently trying to avoid........ That was my point , but i guess it was ok by you and your assumptions baiting for a short period of time

I know i was not in favour of the cull and wrote countless letters to my MLA! Still can't believe it was done in the name of science! Pretty sure it had more to do with politcs!!

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So we should further exacerbate those problems you pointed out by compounding them with additional concetrated feeding locations?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Or correct existing ones such as mandatory requirements for all ranchers to ensure proper game fence enclosures for storage of hay to prevent the concentration of ungulates ? Or famers must have grains removed from fields in a timely mannor and stored as where ungulates can not access as current situations allow..

I know it is a pipe dream to think we care about the actual ruit causes of concentrated feeding locations in Alberta

[NIKON]

Ok sheep were the srd baiting?.....

Chauvin-area rancher and avid hunter Don Chapman feels the lack of attention on the mule population was evidence of a ?rush-job? and that the cull?s mentality was directed more towards a herd reduction than collecting samples for CWD testing. He said if hunters were responsible for the herd reduction, it would have covered more ground and represented a wider testing base than the wildlife officers? version, which was primarily set up with bait stations in Dillberry Lake Provincial Park.

http://www.meridianbooster.com/2005/...s-and-feedback

Just wanted to point this out,