The Future of Sheep in Alberta - Page 10

#**271** 02-10-2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Thanks!Seems like a good thing.Hope most posters on this thread are members

Is there still raffle tickets available?

Yup, but I bought the winning one on the weekend...well I bought the winning one for Vanessa

Actually sounded like there were lots of tickets left. Some great prizes for sure.

sheepguide · #**272** 02-10-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

I have to disagree that there are not enough mature rams here in Alberta. Many people on this forum have stated numerous times, sheep population is not the problem, but the number of mature rams being harvested is a problem. I disagree because the rams being harvested each year is a fraction of the total ram/ breeding ram population and has little effect on which rams are breeding. It may actually relieve some of the stress caused throughout the breeding season (I have no proof of this, just a guess). In some zones the breeding rams never moving to areas with hunting seasons. There are many 5, 6, and 7 year old rams that do the majority of the breeding. The 5, 6 and 7 year old rams that are harvested now are a fraction of the population.
Cam

This is true that some areas some breeding rams are from protected areas! But the rams that this really pertains to are the resident rams that live out side our parks and mines year round. Most rams that do travel from protected areas are doing so in November and with out a draw they have little chance of being hunted anyways.

Lower numbers of older rams that live outside of the parks is what guys wanna improve. No one has stated that there arent enough breeding rams in protected areas.

And if these 5, 6 and 7 year old rams were allowed to age a little more we would have 8, 9 and 10 year old rams doing the breeding.

Our parks and protected areas do very well. Predators are still a problem but you do see a greater variety in ages in these areas. Rams are able to reach 8+ years without being hunted.

ganderblaster · #**273** 02-10-2010, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

just an honest question. Usually when someone is a trophy hunter that is interested in score you hunt for something better than you already harvested!
If you dont like my post its easy, when you see it says sheepguide above it skip over it and continue on.

If we follow that advice would you start focusing on the real problems facing hunters or would you still find pleasure in disagreeing with certain individuals no matter what they post?

bowhuntercam · #**274** 02-10-2010, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

No one has stated that there arent enough breeding rams in protected areas.

I never said anyone said there are not enough breeding rams.

I did however say: Many people on this forum have stated numerous times, sheep population is not the problem, but the number of mature rams being harvested is a problem.

ganderblaster · #**275** 02-10-2010, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Yup, but I bought the winning one on the weekend...well I bought the winning one for Vanessa

Actually sounded like there were lots of tickets left. Some great prizes for sure.

Thanks for the info. I have always appreciated your articles in the numerous hunting publications you write for. Keep up the good work!You have taught me more than you will ever know as I learned to hunt big game by reading whatever I could get my hands on since I had no mentor.Thanks again

sheepguide · #**276** 02-10-2010, 10:56 PM

Not a bad read about shooting rams before reaching breeding maturity.

http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/expre...le.cfm?id=5403

bowhuntercam · #**277** 02-10-2010, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

This is true that some areas some breeding rams are from protected areas! But the rams that this really pertains to are the resident rams that live out side our parks and mines year round. Most rams that do travel from protected areas are doing so in November and with out a draw they have little chance of being hunted anyways.

Lower numbers of older rams that live outside of the parks is what guys wanna improve. No one has stated that there arent enough breeding rams in protected areas.

And if these 5, 6 and 7 year old rams were allowed to age a little more we would have 8, 9 and 10 year old rams doing the breeding.

Our parks and protected areas do very well. Predators are still a problem but you do see a greater variety in ages in these areas. Rams are able to reach 8+ years without being hunted.

I am saying there are plenty of mature rams in Alberta. If one harvests a 6 year old ram or a 9 year old ram it has little, if no effect on the sheep population. I am saying, with plenty of breeding rams the amount of rams currently being harvest it is sustainable for healthy long term sheep populations.

sheepguide · #**278** 02-10-2010, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

If we follow that advice would you start focusing on the real problems facing hunters or would you still find pleasure in disagreeing with certain individuals no matter what they post?

Just curious on who is to decide if things are a real problem? You, TJ, Me? We have been discussing a topic that some feel "IS" an issue and that some feel "ISNT" an issue. And that is what makes up this forum. Discussing topics and involed in that is disagreements its just the way it goes.

And I will disagree or agree with whomever I please thanks.

sheepguide · #**279** 02-10-2010, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

I am saying there are plenty of mature rams in Alberta. If one harvests a 6 year old ram or a 9 year old ram it has little, if no effect on the sheep population. I am saying, with plenty of breeding rams the amount of rams currently being harvest it is sustainable for healthy long term sheep populations.

Read the link I just posted.

sheepguide · #**280** 02-10-2010, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Thanks for the info. I have always appreciated your articles in the numerous hunting publications you write for. Keep up the good work!You have taught me more than you will ever know as I learned to hunt big game by reading whatever I could get my hands on since I had no mentor.Thanks again

JustinC · #**281** 02-10-2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowhuntercam

I am saying there are plenty of mature rams in Alberta. If one harvests a 6 year old ram or a 9 year old ram it has little, if no effect on the sheep population. I am saying, with plenty of breeding rams the amount of rams currently being harvest it is sustainable for healthy long term sheep populations.

Yes you are correct. In most zones in this province but there are some zones that are hurting that do need help.

ganderblaster · #**282** 02-10-2010, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Not a bad read about shooting rams before reaching breeding maturity.

http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/expre...le.cfm?id=5403

I would tend to question the authors stance on hunting at all by reading that.Seems to be the anti's gameplan these days using a small scientific relation in the hopes of eradicating hunting completely!I am not familiar with that authors political views but I would question his support of hunting in general after reading that!It doesn't matter how old a ram is after he can maintain an erection and is capable of breeding (what a headbutter!the ewes all ooohh! and awww!!)his genetics don't change no matter how old he gets example: when a ram is three years old it is still the same ram with the same genetics even if it lives to be 1000 years old

Vindalbakken · #**283** 02-10-2010, 11:11 PM

Interesting slant by the author of the news piece. I will try to find out if it is true to the original.

Vindalbakken · #**284** 02-10-2010, 11:13 PM

SG, have you had a chance to read the synopsis I posted of the complete article from which you posted the image of the abstract?

sheepguide · #**285** 02-10-2010, 11:14 PM

bowhuntercam Just wondering what areas you have traveled in sheep country to conclude that the population of mature rams is good and that it can sustain the amount of rams being killed every year by hunters, predators and natura causes?

sheepguide · #**286** 02-10-2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

I would tend to question the authors stance on hunting at all by reading that.Seems to be the anti's gameplan these days using a small scientific relation in the hopes of eradicating hunting completely!I am not familiar with that authors political views but I would question his support of hunting in general after reading that!

And really that can be stated of most Bio's and writers out there. Many contadict each other and come up with diferent numbers and stats. So who does one really beleive?

JustinC · #**287** 02-10-2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Not a bad read about shooting rams before reaching breeding maturity.

http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/expre...le.cfm?id=5403

I think this is a good read but I dont think it is a fact but a theory.I could be wrong but take a look at other animals.There are monster deer and elk in this province. You just cant find them all over cause they get shot up before they hit there peak. I think it is the same with sheep.The big ones are so far back hiding and the smaller ones have never delt with hunters shooting at them so they are in easier spots and they get shot most times.

walking buffalo · #**288** 02-10-2010, 11:24 PM

Back on post #140, I provided links to several alberta sheep studies, including the actual paper by David Coltman that SG linked above.

This paper alluded that there may be an influence by hunter harvest reducing ram horn size. As a repost, here is the actual study. http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul...pdf/BE2004.pdf

SG, the 'good read' you suggest has been refuted in several studies supported by NWSGC and FNAWS. Again, a repost from #140. http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf

Your 'good read' is considered by many biologist to include an anti-hunting aganda. Are you suggesting that NWSGC and FNAWS are wrong in disagreeing with your suggestion of a good read?

Remember, biologists are human, with all associated habits. Let's not take all scientific research as absolute.

sheepguide · #**289** 02-10-2010, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

SG, have you had a chance to read the synopsis I posted of the complete article from which you posted the image of the abstract?

Ya just did. Missed it some how.

Hard to look at the studies and get a concise answer when every one leaves questions unanswered and each one contradicts what the other says. Be nice to have one muitualy agreed on set of stats to be able to determine how things actually are.
Thats the biggest thing on this topic is that alot of it is opinions and thoughts apposed to proven statistics. When the guys doing the studies cant agree how will we ever be able to?

Vindalbakken · #**290** 02-10-2010, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinC

I think this is a good read but I dont think it is a fact but a theory.

As I said, I will wait to see what the actual facts are from the actual study done before I decide what to think of it.

Just like the actual facts of the last study SG found. I found the abstract the day before, but rather than go live with it I waited to source the complete study and see what was the whole scoop.

walking buffalo · #**291** 02-10-2010, 11:27 PM

10+ posts while I was typing that out..... Damn I'm a slow at typing

ganderblaster · #**292** 02-10-2010, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinC

I think this is a good read but I dont think it is a fact but a theory.I could be wrong but take a look at other animals.There are monster deer and elk in this province. You just cant find them all over cause they get shot up before they hit there peak. I think it is the same with sheep.The big ones are so far back hiding and the smaller ones have never delt with hunters shooting at them so they are in easier spots and they get shot most times.

Your theory justinc would be influenced by age not genetics as the authour of the article you are referring to was pointing out you can read my editted post above if you need that explained further#282 I believe. If that is not clear enough pm me and I will try to explain further justinc

JustinC · #**293** 02-10-2010, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Back on post #140, I provided links to several alberta sheep studies, including the actual paper by David Coltman that SG linked above.

This paper alluded that there may be an influence by hunter harvest reducing ram horn size. As a repost, here is the actual study. http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul...pdf/BE2004.pdf

SG, the 'good read' you suggest has been refuted in several studies supported by NWSGC and FNAWS. Again, a repost from #140. http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf

Your 'good read' is considered by many biologist to include an anti-hunting aganda. Are you suggesting that NWSGC and FNAWS are wrong in disagreeing with your suggestion of a good read?

Remember, biologists are human, with all associated habits. Let's not take all scientific research as absolute.

I dont take this as a anti hunting post I think it is a persons theorys.I am really starting to not beleive any of these bio's or articals. I dont think any of them really know what is going on 100%( IMO)

Vindalbakken · #**294** 02-10-2010, 11:32 PM

Thanks Walking Buffalo, missed that the first time.

Science is always evolving SG, but you need to really look at the facts, and not be cherry picking for corroborating evidence.

JustinC · #**295** 02-10-2010, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Your theory justinc would be influenced by age not genetics as the authour of the article you are referring to was pointing out you can read my editted post above if you need that explained further

No it is not. Some sheep that are old are broomed of so much they are not legal so they dont get shot at.I saw one of these sheep standing just off the road in a huntable area.

bowhuntercam · #**296** 02-10-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Not a bad read about shooting rams before reaching breeding maturity.

http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/expre...le.cfm?id=5403

I have read that before, it is an interesting read.

ganderblaster · #**297** 02-10-2010, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Thanks Walking Buffalo, missed that the first time.

Science is always evolving SG, but you need to really look at the facts, and not be cherry picking for corroborating evidence.

SG I do not mean to put words in Vins mouth but I believe that would include "scientific data" that you might find on PETA'S website(don't go there SG) that might just happen too support one of your posts

bowhuntercam · #**298** 02-10-2010, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinC

Yes you are correct. In most zones in this province but there are some zones that are hurting that do need help.

Good point. That is why this is a complex issue. It almost needs to be addressed WMU by WMU. If it is a serious issue in some zones then measures need to taken to correct he problem.

walking buffalo · #**299** 02-10-2010, 11:41 PM

Hi Justin,

The paper by Coltman has been picked up by the anti-hunting community and is used widely for their agenda. Google it and see for yourself who is promoting this paper.

Other, much broader(in terms of years and sample size)studies have refuted the 'theory' that selective hunter harvest (legal rams)has a effect of reducing horn size in a population.

Dale

sheepguide · #**300** 02-10-2010, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Back on post #140, I provided links to several alberta sheep studies, including the actual paper by David Coltman that SG linked above.

This paper alluded that there may be an influence by hunter harvest reducing ram horn size. As a repost, here is the actual study. http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul...pdf/BE2004.pdf

SG, the 'good read' you suggest has been refuted in several studies supported by NWSGC and FNAWS. Again, a repost from #140. http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf

Your 'good read' is considered by many biologist to include an anti-hunting aganda. Are you suggesting that NWSGC and FNAWS are wrong in disagreeing with your suggestion of a good read?

Remember, biologists are human, with all associated habits. Let's not take all scientific research as absolute.

Your second link you have posted has been brought up many times and may be true about base mesurment on a few southern rams and says that this is due to the chinook belt which gives greater feed and nutrition. Well if this was the actual reason then why does the south produce on average lower scoring rams. If these rams have extra to put into bases why do they not put it into the rest of the horn?

As far as the article being pro hunting or anti hunting is a guess. If its anti then discount it, if its accurate then its a good read.