The Future of Sheep in Alberta - Page 7

kcountry · #**181** 02-09-2010, 04:46 PM

Can't Remember where I read this.....A majority of the Rams taken every year are by Repeat Sheep hunters. Meaning Hunters that have already taken a Ram in the past. My thoughts on increasing Ram size would be to increase the years between eligiblity, From 2 to 3,years or as AFGA has suggested 5 years. My thoughts not Yours.

#**182** 02-09-2010, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcountry

Can't Remember where I read this.....A majority of the Rams taken every year are by Repeat Sheep hunters. Meaning Hunters that have already taken a Ram in the past. My thoughts on increasing Ram size would be to increase the years between eligiblity, From 2 to 3,years or as AFGA has suggested 5 years. My thoughts not Yours.

I'd love to know where you read that. The goverment sure can't supply statistics to support that claim. It could be could be the case but I sure can't see it. AFGA hasn't suggested it either............

kcountry · #**183** 02-09-2010, 05:33 PM

[QUOTE=sheephunter;506189]I'd love to know where you read that. The goverment sure can't supply statistics to support that claim. It could be could be the case but I sure can't see it.

You are correct....AFGA did not suggest that. I miss read there suggestion in regards to the once in a lifetime draw for sheep......

Hagar · #**184** 02-09-2010, 06:48 PM

Sheephunter,I am not against a 6.5 year old ram and I am not say we have to age them before we shoot.But taking a 4/5 curl with lamb tips is pretty easy to tell it is young compared to one that is broomed.A broomed ram would be an older ram.I am just saying we should teach sheep hunters to be a little more selective.I have heard of some hunters and outfitters taking any legal ram just because they are legal even at 4.5 years because they are too fat and out of shape to truly do a sheep hunt.I have also seen rams taken by guides them self that that are very young and just make full curl with lamb tips from a full curl area.These are the sheep that should not be taken.

Again as for population,look at the population goals set forth in the 1990 sheep study.The population goal for the year 2000 was 6900 outside of the parks and a ram harvest goal of 248 rams.We are just now reaching the population goal and no wheres near the harvest goal and it is 2010.Now granted there are most likely some unforeseen factors regarding the population goals,the Yarrow/Castle herd for example.And the harvest goal could be due to lack of effort.But we are about 10 years behind.

As for supply and demand,if sheep were not so special the demand would not be there.

We don't need more restrictions just better educated sheep hunters.Just because it's legal doesn't make it mature.Leave the lamb tip ram a couple more years,I mean how hard is it to see lamb tips.We just need to be alittle more selective this way and there would be a great improvement,IMHO.

#**185** 02-09-2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

We don't need more restrictions just better educated sheep hunters.Just because it's legal doesn't make it mature.Leave the lamb tip ram a couple more years,I mean how hard is it to see lamb tips.We just need to be alittle more selective this way and there would be a great improvement,IMHO.

I don't disagree with you Hagar but I still can't see how education without regulation would make a difference. I'm guessing that lots of sheep hunters would be pleased as punch with a lamb-tipped 4/5 ram and despite telling them that shooting older rams is better, I'm sure there are enough that would shoot the young ram so as not to reduce harvest at all. I could be wrong but I don't think so. If increasing the age-structuire of rams is important, I honestly can't see a means of acheiving it without more restrictive regulations.

What you say makes sense but without regulation I don't see it working. I guess it all comes down to be careful what you wish for. If enough hunters ask for older rams on the mountains, we could just end up with a draw or full-curl regulations.

Hagar · #**186** 02-09-2010, 07:18 PM

Maybe I have alittle more faith in people or maybe I am alittle nieve but if we have a manditory "Sheep Hunters Education" we could teach hunters how valueble and special sheep are and ,although it won't change some, it may change enough hunters.

As for older ram on the mountains,they are there.Enough of the real sheep hunters get them on a regular bases to prove that.We just have to put in the effort and pass on the quick and easy rams just so we an say we got a sheep.

If the cost of the education course is say 200.00 would this also not help weed out those who are just out there to put any ram on the wall?We don't need to change the regulations ,we need to change the hunters.And maybe those who don't want to change don't really care about sheep and shouldn't be hunting them anyway.

sheepguide · #**187** 02-09-2010, 07:28 PM

Just curious TJ on what your 2 rifle rams( not muzzle loader) score?

Hagar · #**188** 02-09-2010, 07:29 PM

I would also like to add that yes everyone has the right to hunt any game animal they want as long as it is a legal animal.Just like subsistance hunters can take what ever they want when ever they want.

Just because someone has the right does not make what they do with that right doe not make it right!

Rockymtnx · #**189** 02-09-2010, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcountry

Can't Remember where I read this.....A majority of the Rams taken every year are by Repeat Sheep hunters. Meaning Hunters that have already taken a Ram in the past.

I have heard this from so many people and not one of them can prove its true. If you or anyone for that matter can provide me with a true statistic showing this I will buy you or them lunch.
Personally I think this figure is just more coffee shop talk.

sheepguide · #**190** 02-09-2010, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

I have heard this from so many people and not one of them can prove its true. If you or anyone for that matter can provide me with a true statistic showing this I will buy you or them lunch.
Personally I think this figure is just more coffee shop talk.

Not anything statistical but I do know a way more people that have multiple rams on the wall than ones that have 1. Many have shot bigger rams each time and a bunch have just shot the first legal rams they have seen each time.
Just a personal observation. And I do know the odd sheep hunter

SG

kcountry · #**191** 02-09-2010, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

I have heard this from so many people and not one of them can prove its true. If you or anyone for that matter can provide me with a true statistic showing this I will buy you or them lunch.
Personally I think this figure is just more coffee shop talk.

I honestly Don't Remember where I read this.....But just out of Curiousity, We could do a Survey right here. I for One have not shot a Ram....Helped pack out One.

depopulator · #**192** 02-09-2010, 07:56 PM

The successful sheep hunters I know all work to improve upon their last ram or are working to find a true aged monarch. Few would look, much settle for a barely legal ram. I have spoken to several outfitters that have shared similar sentiments of resident hunters.

IMO, it is the hunters that are looking at their first legal ram that would be tempted or do in fact kill the squeeker or young rams. Limiting the experienced sheep hunters by extended waiting periods won't improve the the number of rams or age class, as these are not, for the most part, the sheep hunting demographic that is targeting young rams.

#**193** 02-09-2010, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

I have heard this from so many people and not one of them can prove its true. If you or anyone for that matter can provide me with a true statistic showing this I will buy you or them lunch.
Personally I think this figure is just more coffee shop talk.

I guess it's not that hard to believe that guys that dedicate a lot of time to sheep hunting may have killed multiple rams but I'm sure there are a lot of first timers too. But I guess the question that begs asking, is so what. If a guy hunts for sheep for 20 or 30 days a year why shouldn't he be allowed to kill a ram every few years? I don't get the point of some guys promoting a longer waiting period. Certainly there are likely a few guys that kill a ram every two years but far more very serious sheep hunters that I know have two or three rams to their credit. Why on earth would hunters want to reduce opportunity for other hunters...it just seems plain greedy to me.

I'll chip in for lunch too if anyone can show me stats that guys killing multiple rams really is detrimental to sheep population or age structure. I just can't believe it. I can believe that some guys are jealous of successful sheep hunters though and would like to see their opportunities reduced.

sheepguide · #**194** 02-09-2010, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I guess it's not that hard to believe that guys that dedicate a lot of time to sheep hunting may have killed multiple rams but I'm sure there are a lot of first timers too. But I guess the question that begs asking, is so what. If a guy hunts for sheep for 20 or 30 days a year why shouldn't he be allowed to kill a ram every few years? I don't get the point of some guys promoting a longer waiting period. Certainly there are likely a few guys that kill a ram every two years but far more very serious sheep hunters that I know have two or three rams to their credit. Why on earth would hunters want to reduce opportunity for other hunters...it just seems plain greedy to me.

I'll chip in for lunch too if anyone can show me stats that guys killing multiple rams really is detrimental to sheep population or age structure. I just can't believe it. I can believe that some guys are jealous of successful sheep hunters though and would like to see their opportunities reduced.

No one is saying that the guys out there putting in his dues doesnt deserve to shoot a ram. I just cant beleive that there are so many guys that are so scared to have a wait period based on ram ages or even a couple year wait or what ever.
Ill chip in lunch if you can show me that killing rams isnt detrimental! You know it isnt there to be shown either way.
It seems the guys that are most opposed to any kind of regulations or changes are the guys that have multiple rams.
No one wants to take away from guys getting there first ram and that is why suggestions have been made to try and keep oppertunity there. Base wait times on age of the ram killed. If you want to just shoot a 5 1/2 year old ram you have a big wait. If you dont wanna wait and wanna hunt then hold out for an older more mature ram. Its not gunna decline the population and I know some guys will wait because they wanna be out there hunting. If a few guys turn down a few young sheep every year eventually it will help. Even if a couple rams in each zone make it a couple more years it is a step in the right direction And if it doesnt it isnt gunna make things worse!
Sheep are a special animal that a guy shouldnt mind waiting a few years after being successful. Most places its a once in a lifetime hunt. But here guys want one every couple years or they arent happy. To me them guys dont know the real trophy in a bighorn ram!
SG

dinosaur hunter · #**195** 02-09-2010, 08:44 PM

I hear some talk about full curl I don't buy into that I was just at sheep show in Reno saw lots of pic of full curl rams 5- 6 years old but my guess is that if you did not harvest these rams at that age most all would broom back and die before ever reaching full curl again as the the older the ram the shorter the distance in length they achieve. Look at the growth rings lamb tips 2 inches in diameter and 4-6 inches in length last ring on a 15 diameter + 10 year is usually less than a inch

I think Hagar is on the right track education not legislation is the key. Lots of first time hunters want lamb tips and don't appreciate the significance of bases and brooming and the character it portrays so let them take that 5 year old full curl I will gladly lower myself to kill some old 4/5 curl with 16 inch base's and broomed thicker than my wrist. even if he don't make some one elses book
"I'll take the ones that make my book" I am not out to impress someone else
TJ knows what I mean

Rockymtnx · #**196** 02-09-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Not anything statistical but I do know a way more people that have multiple rams on the wall than ones that have 1. Many have shot bigger rams each time and a bunch have just shot the first legal rams they have seen each time.
Just a personal observation. And I do know the odd sheep hunter

SG

Oh yeah I am not arguing that. Its just all the crap everyone has been feeding us lately, that successful ram hunters are killing rams every other year for many years. Personally I don't think its happening and would like to see some actual numbers. Sure there are a few guys that get their fair share but I think its probably a small percentage of what some people are trying to lead us to believe.

Hagar · #**197** 02-09-2010, 09:17 PM

I have nothing against the real"sheep hunters" that spend the time and effort to get a ram having more then 1,2,3 or even 4 rams,a little jealous yeah,but I congradulate them and they are rewarded for their work.Sheep hunting is not easy and there is more to a sheep trophy then just a head on the wall.I have not been hunting sheep long,nor can I get out as much as I like.Although I have yet to find a sheep I want ,and have passed on a couple of squeekers,I know I will find the ram I want one day.I will keep looking and hunting until I do as long as the regulations stay the way they are.I think a mature ram is more of a trophy then a just legal one.

As I have said before,with a manditory education course we may be able to change enough hunters to make a difference,how ever there will always be those others who are just out there for the head no matter what it is.Anything that helps even a few rams make it a few more years sure ain't going to hurt,as sheepguide said.

209x50 · #**198** 02-09-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

As I have said before,with a manditory education course we may be able to change enough hunters to make a difference,how ever there will always be those others who are just out there for the head no matter what it is.

I truly doubt it. I wish I could say I believed the idea had a chance but when I look at the abject failure that education programs like drinking and driving, stop smoking, diet, teen pregnancy, and so on are I can't see sheep U having a shot.
One statistic I found interesting was a study I read that showed that natural causes killed off 40 to 50% of the ram year class every year. So 60% go from 3.5 to 4.5 and 50% of those make it the next year and so on.

sheepguide · #**199** 02-09-2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

I truly doubt it. I wish I could say I believed the idea had a chance but when I look at the abject failure that education programs like drinking and driving, stop smoking, diet, teen pregnancy, and so on are I can't see sheep U having a shot.
One statistic I found interesting was a study I read that showed that natural causes killed off 40 to 50% of the ram year class every year. So 60% go from 3.5 to 4.5 and 50% of those make it the next year and so on.

Gee let me see you read that on a post that already stated that by T.J.?

Or where where exactly did you read this so everyone here can read it also!
Seems funny how when anything is said on here you and TJ want documented proof but yet you post none!

And you are now comparing our hard working sheep hunters to lets see... DRUNKS,PREGNANT TEENS and SMOKERS. Id give our sheep hunting community a little more credit than that 209.
SG

Hagar · #**200** 02-09-2010, 10:20 PM

I guess by 209's logic then we better get out and kill a ram before they all die cause we are no better then drunks,pregnant teens,and smokers!

sheepguide · #**201** 02-09-2010, 10:31 PM

Yep seems to be the idea. Shoot em as soon as they are legal as they are gunna die in the next couple years anyways. You can see the results of this by the park sheep and mine rams. To bad some wouldnt live in them areas past 5 1/2 or 6 1/2.

ganderblaster · #**202** 02-09-2010, 10:52 PM

Being born in the prairies I am truly envious of anyone who has had the oppurtunity to even be on a sheep hunt.I grew up reading Jack O'Connor and Andy Russel so it's definitely something I hope to do some day.What scares me the most after reading this thread is how these changes always seem to happen at the expense of the only group truly passionate about Alberta's wildlife which would be us the HUNTERS.I'm no expert but it has been stated here that 50% of all sheep are killed by natural or non hunter circumstances.This and the closing of former hunting grounds seems to be the real problem.For instance let's take a look at the last two hunting oppurtunities we have lost(hunting cougar with hounds and grizzly bear hunting) I would be interested if anyone has actual data but from what I have picked up from numerous articles is that cougar,wolves and grizzlies(apart from loss of habitat) are the biggest cause of sheep,elk or mule deer mortalities.Together we are the champions of all wildlife without a voice we are their only hope. The anti's are getting smart and to me it seems like they are making an inroad by dividing hunters and using deceiving data to prove their point.It has been stated here that sheephunting or sheep numbers haven't been this good since the 80's why would we be willing to give up even one oppurtunity because once we give it up it seems to be GONE FOREVER and HUNTERS and BIGHORN SHEEP END UP THE LOSER'S

LET R RIP · #**203** 02-09-2010, 10:55 PM

How many illegal sheep are taken annually? whether short or not registered?

I personally know of a few, in one case the hunter was allowed to purchase a trophy sheep licience the following season. Is it possible that more enforcement would curb the harvesting of barely legal or short sheep?

I know it's a touchy subject because they don't want these short sheep just left. But, if there are more negative consequences would that not keep more marginal sheep from being harvested?

sheepguide · #**204** 02-09-2010, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LET R RIP

How many illegal sheep are taken annually? whether short or not registered?

I personally know of a few, in one case the hunter was allowed to purchase a trophy sheep licience the following season. Is it possible that more enforcement would curb the harvesting of barely legal or short sheep?

I know it's a touchy subject because they don't want these short sheep just left. But, if there are more negative consequences would that not keep more marginal sheep from being harvested?

Stiffer fines and penalties can work both ways. Sure some guys may turn that ram down that he wouldnt have because he knows there are stiffer consiquences but also that guy that does shoot a ram that is short that would normaly turn him self in may be more inclined to rock pile his sheep due to a stiff penalty.

LET R RIP · #**205** 02-09-2010, 11:09 PM

I agree that this may be what happens, however short and illegally shot sheep ARE making an impact on future harvest availiblity, age and B&C scores!

JustinC · #**206** 02-09-2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Stiffer fines and penalties can work both ways. Sure some guys may turn that ram down that he wouldnt have because he knows there are stiffer consiquences but also that guy that does shoot a ram that is short that would normaly turn him self in may be more inclined to rock pile his sheep due to a stiff penalty.

I agree.I found lots of fork horn bucks back in the 3 pointer days for muledeer in the foothills.It is easyier to walk away.I do agree that over 50% of sheep die from other things than hunters. I dont bleive they die like 209 an sheephunter say. There is alot of mountains that are hardley ever walked on by a hunter.I bet there is a fair bit of monsters or old rams that have no genetics to be a monsterhiding in all of the timbeer below the tree line.

#**207** 02-09-2010, 11:15 PM

Quote:

I dont bleive they die like 209 an sheephunter say.

What did I say?

sheepguide · #**208** 02-09-2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 209x50

One statistic I found interesting was a study I read that showed that natural causes killed off 40 to 50% of the ram year class every year. So 60% go from 3.5 to 4.5 and 50% of those make it the next year and so on.

Something along these lines TJ

#**209** 02-10-2010, 12:55 AM

Just curious what you think kills those rams then Justin....the bio told me natural causes was a big factor. Considering the number of dead rams I've found over the years near winter range, I'd have to say that falling, avalanches and predators take their toll. I guess it's possible that a few are caused by the hands of man but in the places I've found most dead rams, hunting season is long over by the time the rams move in and I suspect they are too remote for poaching. Natural ram mortality is quite high according to the bio I spoke with, from what I've observed and from what I've read.

I'm sure in more accessible areas, you'd have to factor in the First Nations harvest as well but it seems mother nature is particularly hard on rams all by herself. I'm sure the same can be said for most ungulate species though.

When Geist studied rams in Banff, he found that 50% of rams had died by the time they reached 10. Throw hunting into the equation and it's not hard to imagine a 50% decline every year after age 7. The rams that make it to more than 8 years old are really bucking the odds....but a certain percentage do.

sheepguide · #**210** 02-10-2010, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I had a biologist tell me one time that you can basically cut the numer of rams in half for every year they live past 7. So if there are 100 seven year old rams, only 50 make it to 8, 25 to 9, 12 to 10 and so on.

Very nice quick edit TJ. This would be what you said! And im sure exactly where 209 got his statistics a few posts back. nSeems to go exactly together