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  #31  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:19 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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Just a note,
There is a youth education coarse like this(FNAWS Youth Hunter SheepCamp) already that is a great success with youngsters. It isnt required but still alot of people figure its a good idea! If its working for the youth then why cant it work for everyone?
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  #32  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:22 PM
7mmremmag 7mmremmag is offline
 
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Default Legal Rams

I have started putting in 999 on sheep draw in the grande cache area. I have never hunted sheep and dont know much about them but would like to learn more about them and eventually hunt them when my draw comes up! I hear talk of this "Course"??? Is there such a course a guy can take and learn a few things about sheep....Specifically what is a legal and illegal sheep??? I know the regs show it, but its not exactly "detailed" I would love to take one of these so called "sheep courses"
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  #33  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:25 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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Seems funny that ram is legal when this ram was called short on the left horn (legal on the right)by a very seasoned CO (Lee Hankey) that is probably one of the most experienced CO's at squaring a sheep.

2.jpg
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  #34  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:27 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmremmag View Post
I have started putting in 999 on sheep draw in the grande cache area. I have never hunted sheep and dont know much about them but would like to learn more about them and eventually hunt them when my draw comes up! I hear talk of this "Course"??? Is there such a course a guy can take and learn a few things about sheep....Specifically what is a legal and illegal sheep??? I know the regs show it, but its not exactly "detailed" I would love to take one of these so called "sheep courses"
At this point there is only a youth course for kids up to 17 I beleive it is.
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  #35  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:32 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
Seems funny that ram is legal when this ram was called short on the left horn (legal on the right)by a very seasoned CO (Lee Hankey) that is probably one of the most experienced CO's at squaring a sheep.

Attachment 19450
For a seasoned sheep hunter you sure don't seem to understand what a difference a little angle can make on the judging. Comparing this picture which makes the ram look closer to legal than actual to the other which makes him look further from legal is my basis for that statement.
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  #36  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:32 PM
Tonto Tonto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmremmag View Post
I have started putting in 999 on sheep draw in the grande cache area. I have never hunted sheep and dont know much about them but would like to learn more about them and eventually hunt them when my draw comes up! I hear talk of this "Course"??? Is there such a course a guy can take and learn a few things about sheep....Specifically what is a legal and illegal sheep??? I know the regs show it, but its not exactly "detailed" I would love to take one of these so called "sheep courses"
If some have their way there will never be a course. It would be to much of a waste of time and resources. I guess it's who cares if some uneducated guy makes an honest mistake.

Last edited by Tonto; 02-12-2010 at 09:38 PM.
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  #37  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:39 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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Originally Posted by Tonto View Post
If some well known alberta outdoorsman have their way there will never be a course. It would be to much of a waste of time and resources. I guess it's who cares if some uneducated guy makes an honest mistake.
There is a big difference between offering a course for interested sheep hunters and making it mandatory for all sheep hunters. One is a public service, the other a public nuisance.

So go ahead and put a course together. Hang out your shingle and make some money on it or donate your time and feel good about it. Whichever way. Local AFGA clubs would be a good place to facilitate through don't you think?
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  #38  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Vindalbakken View Post
For a seasoned sheep hunter you sure don't seem to understand what a difference a little angle can make on the judging. Comparing this picture which makes the ram look closer to legal than actual to the other which makes him look further from legal is my basis for that statement.
The only way to make the original ram look longer is to move the viewer to the left towards the rear of the animal which will take you out of profile! That is the pupose of base alignment(which you should know) As long as your base alignment is correct being higher or lower does not effect you very much.
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  #39  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Setterman View Post
This sheep has been plugged and registered. Whether it is legal or not is up for interpretation.....
Not the first time, I've heard of this. I passed a ram up a number of years ago, only to have an aquaintance shoot it, a week later. He took it in, had it approved and dropped it off at the taxidermists. A week or two later, one of the local, know it all, outfitters, drops in, sees the ram and rushes off to report that the guy is mounting an illegal ram. Fish cops descend on the place to investigate. Too Bad, Too Sad for them. The ram had that little lead plug and there is nothing they could do. Obviously, the problem with this definition isn't just with hunters.

The real problem with Sheep hunting is it's popularity and the ease with which it can be done, nowadays. There are many times the number of sheep hunters, as legal rams and every one of them feels he is under pressure to get one, before the next guy shows up. Obviously not universal, but in some places, the life expectancy of a legal ram can be measured in minutes.
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  #40  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:45 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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That is just it. Picture #1 is shot forward and #2 is rearward. Although the effect is not as great, higher makes shorter and lower makes longer. #1 is higher and #2 is lower. And you want to compare lines on them. Either you don't really know what you are doing or you are being disingenuous.
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  #41  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:48 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
The real problem with Sheep hunting is it's popularity and the ease with which it can be done, nowadays. There are many times the number of sheep hunters, as legal rams and every one of them feels he is under pressure to get one, before the next guy shows up. Obviously not universal, but in some places, the life expectancy of a legal ram can be measured in minutes.
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So, you think we are overharvesting sheep?
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  #42  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:49 PM
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I agree that some Game Wardens could also use a little more training for sheep. Although ,with out seeing both sheep in person ,I don't think the camera angles are that far from square and think they portray both sheep rather well.

I agree that the hunters ed program is very limited as it is,and stuff still happens.When these kind of things happen with the current training it must give the anti's even more to use against us.

I for one think it's a real shame when a hunter makes what is sometimes even a honest mistake.
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  #43  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:52 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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Originally Posted by Hagar View Post
When these kind of things happen with the current training it must give the anti's even more to use against us.
Now the anti's are going to be on us because someone shot a borderline sheep and took it in and got it legally plugged?
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  #44  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:53 PM
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After reading all these sheep threads, I think I'm happy we don't have them in MB.
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  #45  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:55 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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Originally Posted by Vindalbakken View Post
That is just it. Picture #1 is shot forward and #2 is rearward. Although the effect is not as great, higher makes shorter and lower makes longer. #1 is higher and #2 is lower. And you want to compare lines on them. Either you don't really know what you are doing or you are being disingenuous.
Ok here is an easy one for you that can show everyone that you know little on this.

Hold your finger horizontal or at the angle the horn in the pic is.... now move your head up and down. That finger will not move left or right. Now move your head left or right. There your horn gets shorter or longer. The only way to make a horn look longer or closer to legal is to move to the rear of the sheep.
Dont tell me I dont know what im doing. Its 2 year old science.

If you wanna disagree with that then go ahead.

Last edited by lilsundance; 02-12-2010 at 10:29 PM.
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  #46  
Old 02-12-2010, 09:57 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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Originally Posted by Vindalbakken View Post
Now the anti's are going to be on us because someone shot a borderline sheep and took it in and got it legally plugged?
Maybe we should shut this forum down as the anti's if they really want could manipulate anything that is said on here to benifit them.
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  #47  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:03 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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If im so wrong proove it. There are lots of guys reading this and some are wanting to learn a few things so if I am wrong show them how things should really be done. If you cant then you best not say that people do not know what they are talking about!!!!!!

Last edited by lilsundance; 02-12-2010 at 10:30 PM.
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  #48  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:10 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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The line from the base of the horn past the eye moves out and away at a diagonal to the frame. The z axis seperation distance between the horn tip and the eye creates relative movement between the two as the view point is moved up and down. As the viewpoint lowers the tip moves towards the eye in a vertical plane bringing it closer to the diagonal line. As the viewpoint is moved up the seperation between eye and tip increases giving the visual effect of a greater seperation from the diagonal line. The problem comes from visualizing a 3D object on a 2D plane.

And no, you can't change the vertical viewing angle by tilting the picture.


PS - you could have chosen disingenuous.

Last edited by lilsundance; 02-12-2010 at 10:31 PM.
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  #49  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:15 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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Nope still at the same stage as i was b4 so keep going then and please tell me then how people can judge legal when looking up a steep angle or down a steep angle as that sometimes is the case in sheep hunting?

Last edited by sheepguide; 02-12-2010 at 10:20 PM.
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  #50  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:18 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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Because they understand geometry?
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  #51  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagar View Post
That is what I mean about the education course.I here of at least one of these shot each year.Some are brought in,others are kicked over a cliff.

I hear of nearly 200 of these shot every year...
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  #52  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:20 PM
Tonto Tonto is offline
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Did you report them?
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  #53  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:30 PM
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This ram was short too, according to Sheepguide's buddy, after an experienced sheep hunter and taxidermist assured me it was legal, before I pulled the trigger. When they define a legal ram, in the regulations, they don't tell you, that the test is a framing square put across to the opposite base, from the horn being checked. That can make or break a squeaker.



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  #54  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Vindalbakken View Post
Because they understand geometry?
That right there is funny I dont care who you are im sure that thats what people think about when the have their spotting scope on a ram that is legal.
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  #55  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:32 PM
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Did you report them?
Why would I report a legally registered ram?
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  #56  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:38 PM
sheepguide sheepguide is offline
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams View Post
This ram was short too, according to Sheepguide's buddy, after an experienced sheep hunter and taxidermist assured me it was legal, before I pulled the trigger. When they define a legal ram, in the regulations, they don't tell you, that the test is a framing square put across to the opposite base, from the horn being checked. That can make or break a squeaker.



Grizz
He isnt my buddy, Lee has just done the sheep deal for many years in one of the offices that checks in the most rams and is actually a very respected CO.

That is the deal if guys knew how they are squared and that you must have a ram in profile with the bases aligned then a close ram may make it. Biggest thing when rams are that close is that if your gunna call it you had better be sure. There will always be error on both sides as long as there is the human factor.

Do you happen to have any in profile type pics of this ram Griz?

Last edited by sheepguide; 02-12-2010 at 10:49 PM.
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  #57  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I hear of nearly 200 of these shot every year...
Are you serious I read the first post and apparently the fellow has a legal ram and I know how pictures can be deceiving but I highly doubt you hear of 200 of these being shot every year.

If we ignore this then one of the initial problems identified of shooting short rams will continue. The hunting community should be upset at this and criticism laid at both the hunter and the person that plugged this critter.
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  #58  
Old 02-12-2010, 10:56 PM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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i think tj was just answering a question sg. also, i dont think the line you drew on the picture is accurate either. there looks to be a good inch of horn under the hair at the base which makes him a whole bunch closer.....but still short methinks.
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  #59  
Old 02-12-2010, 11:00 PM
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We see the mistakes made with minimal education can you imagin what it would be like with no education? Every little bit of education will help. Sure its not gunna totally solve all issues but it will lower them. Like many have said it only has to keep a couple small sheep alive to have worked.[/QUOTE]

@Sheep Guide
Shouldn't it be the hunters responsibilty to know if the sheep is legal or not?
There is NO barely legal or just legal.

Shouldn't it be the hunters responsibility to learn as much as he/she can about this mountain monarchs? We are talking about the most gorgeus animals we have, right?

The attached is what I would recommend before someone seriously want to hunt a sheep. People spend so much money on a rifle, a powerful scope or the lightest backpack and so on why don't they spend some money that helps them to learn more about sheep?? By the way it also helps to judge a ram.
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File Type: jpg clip_image002.jpg (49.7 KB, 179 views)
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  #60  
Old 02-12-2010, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SLH View Post
Are you serious I read the first post and apparently the fellow has a legal ram and I know how pictures can be deceiving but I highly doubt you hear of 200 of these being shot every year.

If we ignore this then one of the initial problems identified of shooting short rams will continue. The hunting community should be upset at this and criticism laid at both the hunter and the person that plugged this critter.
I was referring to legally registered sheep SLH.

This fellow actually e-mailed me a picture of this ram when he shot it and to say he was over the top with excitement and pride would be a gross understatement. He hunted sheep hard for a number of years and his hard work finally paid off. I find it a little disconcerting that a bunch of armchair experts are belittling and bashing him when all they have seen is a picture of the ram. Some have gone so far as to question the knowledge of the officer that registered it. The guy worked hard for the ram.....it was legally registered...I say congratulations.
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