Shot placement question

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I
I realize that the OP was really looking to get people to say that a shoulder shot with a super magnum would be the choice they would make.

.

And you came to that conclusion how?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by big-river

Keg River,
You nailed this one. Absolutely.
I am like you, very little hunting experience, only about 45 years. You have the jump on me.
I have killed grizzlies, brown bears, and far far too many black bears to count. Guided many many more.
I hunt with a 30-06 most days.
I have followed far too many blood trails from sports who knew about the magical kill zone in the shoulders, or fellows who figured they could slide one in quartering away up into the off shoulder.
Never followed a lung/heart shot bear very far, and always had good blood to do so.
Did see a couple bears drop instantly from a high shoulder shot, but I saw far more bears leave town on the quick from guys who missed this magic spot with their magnums. By the way, why do we know that a broken shoulder is a wound, and these other fellows figure they will anchor their bear? Don;t they know a bear doesn't hang around long wounded, they can cover ground pronto. So hard to get in a good follow up shot on a running bear. I did see some wounded bears shot thru both shoulders a couple times, pathetic sight, them pushing their front ends with their back ends, trying their best to get away. Seems foolish to shoot them anywhere else except the chest. Plus for those saving meat, the lung shot animals bleed out so much better.
I never did figure out the fuss of all these guys trying to re-invent the wheel and finding new and improved places to shoot animals. Dad tells me that back in his day, there was always some dude trying to tell everyone to shoot their moose in the hump, it would knock it down quick. True enough, but he failed to mention that they would usually leave right after.
Oh well.
Anyways, Keg River, I figure we are right on this issue, but with only about 100 years of hunting experience between us, what the hell would we know anyways?

I really disagree with anyone who figures they have the right to determine right or wrong for everyone.
You are entitled to say what right for yourself and Keg is as well but don't get all carried away saying that makes everyone else wrong. It just don't work that way in the real world and other peoples mileage may vary.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I really disagree with anyone who figures they have the right to determine right or wrong for everyone.
You are entitled to say what right for yourself and Keg is as well but don't get all carried away saying that makes everyone else wrong. It just don't work that way in the real world and other peoples mileage may vary.

x2

Lets also remember that bullet construction has changed alot since 1965....

[209x50]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I realize that the OP was really looking to get people to say that a shoulder shot with a super magnum would be the choice they would make.

I killed the biggest bull elk of my life this fall with a single high shoulder shot at 210 yards. The super uber magnum I used? A 130 grain Berger VLD out of a 260 AI.

Originally Posted by 209x50

I really disagree with anyone who figures they have the right to determine right or wrong for everyone.
You are entitled to say what right for yourself and Keg is as well but don't get all carried away saying that makes everyone else wrong. It just don't work that way in the real world and other peoples mileage may vary.

I do find it interesting that when a person states their prefered shot that some others automatically assume you are too stupid to take any other shot. I'll wait for both shoulders on dangerous game if I can but if I can't, I'm not so inept that I can't place a bullet in the heart or lung or one shoulder or chest or head if conditions dictate. Great to see so many super hunters on the board lately though..... I can't wait till I'm 100 years old.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

And you came to that conclusion how?

Well it certainly lead you to give that answer didn't it?
Rather then saying that you would choose the shot to match the situation as you just did in your last post.


All I'm saying is that the question, and the answers given could lead a novice to the wrong conclusion. That being that a shoulder shot is always the ONLY option. Or that it is always the best option.

I have no doubt about your ability to make the right decision for you.
There are others here who don't have the benefit of years of hunting experience that you and I have.

I think we need to consider them as well.

[Segundo]

As I sit here and read as I eat lunch , I have come to this conclusion ...

First of all I am reading this message board because as I wait for spring and the chance to take my son out to the bush and begin teaching him what ever I can, it passes time and maybe I'll pick up an idea or two . I always enjoy listening to others stories .... And one can always learn something...

But the thing I have really picked up after a couple of these threads is not about the size of the gun, or where the bullet will land, rather its the attitude I will have to really teach / show my son. It is a given with me, but the threads reaffirms it.

Some of the ways in which we speak to fellow outdoors people still shocks me sometimes.

Professional, or not, some of the hunters I have the most respect for are the ones who seem the humblest. Willing to share experience, but not like a jack@#$ .

Thanks for the reminder.

I

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Well it certainly lead you to give that answer didn't it?

He asked if heart or shoulders was prefered...I said I personally prefered shoulders and explained why. I never once mentioned cartridge nor did the OP. I saw a poster asking where people prefered to place a bullet; shoulders or heart/lung...nothing more. I assumed that he was inteligent enough to know that sometimes conditions dictate other shots...apparently you didn't give him that much credit.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Well it certainly lead you to give that answer didn't it?
Rather then saying that you would choose the shot to match the situation as you just did in your last post.


All I'm saying is that the question, and the answers given could lead a novice to the wrong conclusion. That being that a shoulder shot is always the ONLY option. Or that it is always the best option.

I have no doubt about your ability to make the right decision for you.
There are others here who don't have the benefit of years of hunting experience that you and I have.

I think we need to consider them as well.

I'm not sure how you come to your conclusion when the OP states very clearly:

Which one do you prefer, if at all?

I don't speak for anyone other than myself and would never feel I had the right to tell others what is right or wrong.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Well it certainly lead you to give that answer didn't it?

Weird...a question was posed and it lead someone to answer what their preference was? Man...thats unheard of!!!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

He asked if heart or shoulders was prefered...I said I personally prefered shoulders and explained why. I never once mentioned cartridge. So I ask again how you came to that conclusion? I saw a poster asking where people prefered to place a bullet; shoulders or heart/lung...nothing more. I assumed that he was inteligent enough to know that sometimes conditions dictate other shots...apparently you didn't give him that much credit.

It did start out that way, I read the answers and moved on.
With all due credit to GrayLynx, it was unfair of me to say that the result he got was the result he wanted.
But it was turning into a shoot them in the shoulder thread.
That is when I felt a different prospective needed to be presented.

Look at the following statements. "Everything in the shoulder" "Last light shoulders,first light and day time heart/lungs"
Now maybe you and I understand that such statements were not meant to say that shoulder shots are the only option or that they are a guaranteed shot. But I'm sure you can see why a novice might see them as saying that.

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It did start out that way, I read the answers and moved on.
With all due credit to GrayLynx, it was unfair of me to say that the result he got was the result he wanted.
But it was turning into a shoot them in the shoulder thread.
That is when I felt a different prospective needed to be presented.

Look at the following statements. "Everything in the shoulder" "Last light shoulders,first light and day time heart/lungs"
Now maybe you and I understand that such statements were not meant to say that shoulder shots are the only option or that they are a guaranteed shot. But I'm sure you can see why a novice might see them as saying that.

I guess I give people more credit than you do Keg. I'm guessing they were all inteligent enough to know shoulders are their prefered option but conditions dictate. Two options were given and people picked one or the other......man, what a concept

[Rackmastr]

If everyone had stated their opinion was the opposite, KegRiver would have no issues at all. Jeez dude....its a question posed about PREFERENCE. You're bound to not have everyone agree with you 100% of the time....

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Now maybe you and I understand that such statements were not meant to say that shoulder shots are the only option or that they are a guaranteed shot. But I'm sure you can see why a novice might see them as saying that.

what ive seen is a lot of very good reasoning for why shooting shoulders makes sense. noone said its the only option, but several said its a good option and gave reasons why.....reasons that make good sense whether the shooter is very experienced or brand new. some good reasons for shooting behind the shoulders were also presented...again experience level is irrelevant.

for those that sit at their computer wondering why others like to shoot shoulders, think about this.......if someone put a bullet through you broadside entering just below the point of your shoulder, think about all the goo it would obliterate on the way. also think if the angle wasnt perfectly broadside but from a somewhat quartering angle a bullet went through you to break the off shoulder in the same way. again consider what that bullet would be thrashing along the way. the added bonus is that the animal will drop quite nicely. to aim a little behind the shoulder kills too, but they can go a long way before dying.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Weird...a question was posed and it lead someone to answer what their preference was? Man...thats unheard of!!!

What is with you people. I had no issue with Sheephunters answer.
He took issue with my answer.

It was the general direction the thread was headed that I was concerned about. But you all take it as a personal attack on you.

Well here's a news bulletin for you, I didn't even notice who posted what.
Frankly I could care less where 209, sheep or any of you choose to aim.

I was concerned that once again we were presenting a unbalanced view to the novices on this site. Unintentional maybe, but I think unbalanced.

So shoot me for not agreeing with you.

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It was the general direction the thread was headed that I was concerned about. But you all take it as a personal attack on you.

So shoot me for not agreeing with you.

I took nothing personal and I had no issue with your answer. I was just pointing out that all the posters on here that talked about shoulder shots aren't as stupid as you seem to think.

I totally respect that you may prefer another shot angle or angles.....possibly the same courtesy should be extended and we wouldn't be here

[KegRiver]

This debate can go on forever. Each side is equally convinced that they are right.

Problem is, there is a bit of truth to both sides, but trying to point that out, as I just found out, is a no no on this site.

Best of luck guys. The thread is yours.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

What is with you people. I had no issue with Sheephunters answer.
He took issue with my answer.

It was the general direction the thread was headed that I was concerned about. But you all take it as a personal attack on you.

Well here's a news bulletin for you, I didn't even notice who posted what.
Frankly I could care less where 209, sheep or any of you choose to aim.

I was concerned that once again we were presenting a unbalanced view to the novices on this site. Unintentional maybe, but I think unbalanced.

So shoot me for not agreeing with you.

Haha! Just because it seems unbalanced to you doesn't mean it seems so to others. And the OP didn't ask for balance he asked for personal preference. You seem to have trouble people stating THEIR opinion Keg.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It did start out that way, I read the answers and moved on.
With all due credit to GrayLynx, it was unfair of me to say that the result he got was the result he wanted.
But it was turning into a shoot them in the shoulder thread.
That is when I felt a different prospective needed to be presented.

Look at the following statements. "Everything in the shoulder" "Last light shoulders,first light and day time heart/lungs"
Now maybe you and I understand that such statements were not meant to say that shoulder shots are the only option or that they are a guaranteed shot. But I'm sure you can see why a novice might see them as saying that.

If you go back to the OP's asking of "preferred placement" on "dangerous game" you can ignore a lot of chatter. Never mind the deer beating up the idiot or the moose trashing your buddies truck. Preferred means "planned" in an ideal situation. We all know that once you get out of the house things are going to change and you may have to take a shot other than the preferred.

I would think that any novice who happened to come across this thread (and could read English) would be able to understand the OP's questioning of personal preferences. Same novice would probably agree as to what classified as "dangerous game" and why someone may prefer a shoulder shot.

Just my "PERSPECTIVE".

LOL!

[Okotokian]

Seems different folks learned different ways. It strikes me that a big part of making a good shot is familiarity and confidence. If you take the shot you always have and think best, you will probably get the best result.

Wondering this though... would the effectiveness of the shoulder shot decline with range and/or lower caliber? It seems to me it's effectiveness is dependent upon a good strong bullet and a lot of velocity/energy. Given equally accurate shots, might a 350 yard shot to an elks lungs/heart be more effective/reliable than a 350 yard shot to the shoulders, especially with somethng less than a .30 caliber magnum? Wouldn't the boiler also be a little bigger than the shoulder bone as a target?

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Wondering this though... would the effectiveness of the shoulder shot decline with range and/or lower caliber? It seems to me it's effectiveness is dependent upon a good strong bullet and a lot of velocity/energy. Given equally accurate shots, might a 350 yard shot to an elks lungs/heart be more effective/reliable than a 350 yard shot to the shoulders, especially with somethng less than a .30 caliber magnum? Wouldn't the boiler also be a little bigger than the shoulder bone as a target?

I shot my big bull elk at 328 yards through both shoulders with a 140gr TSX out of a 7-08. No big .30 cal magnums here!

I see what you're saying though Oko, and I think it depends on circumstance (like a lot of whats being said here)....

Originally Posted by KegRiver

This debate can go on forever. Each side is equally convinced that they are right.

Problem is, there is a bit of truth to both sides, but trying to point that out, as I just found out, is a no no on this site.

Best of luck guys. The thread is yours.

Keg, don't play the poor bullied role now. You sure were having a good time laughing at a bunch of posters and spouting your superiority and now that you get called on it you are pouting. My comments to you were never about your choice of shot being right or wrong. I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right about anything. I offered my personal preference in response to the OP and never criticized anyone else's choice. I had no interest in a debate as there are lots of good options for shots. I was simply pointing out that most shooters were not as stupid as you were elluding to. End of story!

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I took nothing personal and I had no issue with your answer. I was just pointing out that all the posters on here that talked about shoulder shots aren't as stupid as you seem to think.

I totally respect that you may prefer another shot angle or angles.....possibly the same courtesy should be extended and we wouldn't be here

LOL! Situational choices! Too bad reality has to cut in and not give us the perfect standing broadside shot every single time.

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Seems different folks learned different ways. It strikes me that a big part of making a good shot is familiarity and confidence. If you take the shot you always have and think best, you will probably get the best result.

Wondering this though... would the effectiveness of the shoulder shot decline with range and/or lower caliber? It seems to me it's effectiveness is dependent upon a good strong bullet and a lot of velocity/energy. Given equally accurate shots, might a 350 yard shot to an elks lungs/heart be more effective/reliable than a 350 yard shot to the shoulders, especially with somethng less than a .30 caliber magnum? Wouldn't the boiler also be a little bigger than the shoulder bone as a target?

Absolutely bullet selection is critical Oko and absolutely range and other factors come into the equation. I personaly think the high shoulder offers the most room for error but the heart lungs is a big target too. As this thread was about dangerous game, my personal preference is to bust some bone and drop it on the spot. I'd never tell anyone the heart lungs was wrong though.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Seems different folks learned different ways. It strikes me that a big part of making a good shot is familiarity and confidence. If you take the shot you always have and think best, you will probably get the best result.

Wondering this though... would the effectiveness of the shoulder shot decline with range and/or lower caliber? It seems to me it's effectiveness is dependent upon a good strong bullet and a lot of velocity/energy. Given equally accurate shots, might a 350 yard shot to an elks lungs/heart be more effective/reliable than a 350 yard shot to the shoulders, especially with somethng less than a .30 caliber magnum? Wouldn't the boiler also be a little bigger than the shoulder bone as a target?

Calibre definately would affect my choice of shot placement on an elk sized animal. Range less so as I don't consider 350yds to be an excessively long distance even for a 7mm-08 or such. Just so long as I have shot the rifle at the range and know where the bullet should be hitting.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

I shot my big bull elk at 328 yards through both shoulders with a 140gr TSX out of a 7-08. No big .30 cal magnums here!

As a guy who's primary hunting rifle is a .270Win, that's good to hear. I don't use a TSX but I do use a Winchester Supreme 150g that I think is pretty stout and fast. Should do the trick for me then.

[big-river]

What a storm of controversy already!
Sounds like some of the younger guys figure that experience from someone who has been there and done it before doesn't count for anything because they have some grey in the beard.
I killed big game in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, althrough the 2000's till 2011. Guided four elk hunters (successfully), guided 7 deer hunters, (successfully), harvested a moose, a whitetail buck, and two blackbears plus numerous coyotes this past year alone.
I have guided in BC, (owned an area), guided five years in the NWT for Dall's and Caribou, (before the helicoptors became popular for hunting) outfitted Coues Deer Hunts in Sonora Mexico, plus guided in Sask. and Alberta for many species including the Bighorns. Had my own hunting licenses in those places also plus hunted Alaska for Brown Bear twice. Also have hunted New Mexico, Wyoming, and Montana. Worked as a Problem Wildlife guy for the government, lived as a trapper back when fur was king in the 80's, killing around 130 coyotes by trap and gun in a season. I have three book animals and guided to many others. Other than this, I haven't seen too much. But what I have seen is that not one of the animals I hunt have changed one bit, they all look the same and they all have exactly the same anatomy they had over the years since I started. And when someone comes hunting with me, or when someone asks my opinion about killing shots I think I know a thing or two about what I am talking about. Sure, there are new spit-fire calibres out there, but it is still hard to beat a 30-06, a .338 or .375 H+H. (These have been around a mighty long time too) tho. And the faster lightening spitting calibres sure blow alot of energy out the other side where they leave a lot of that energy on the wrong side of an animal, (meaning the outside.) But calibre is a matter of choice, and isn't as nearly as important as you think. Best thing about the new cartridges is trajectory. Sometimes I hunt with a .300 RUM for Big Game, or a .204 for coyotes. Or sometimes a 30-06. Best bait gun for checking baits ever for me was a BLR .358. Now thats an antiquated calibre. Sure kills grouchy bears at yards that are measured in single digits tho. Whatever your calibre, placement doesn't change much.

You can shoot your game wherever you care to. Makes no nevermind to me. But whenever I have someone ask me where to aim, I tell them straight up where to try and hit em based on what has worked best for me and whoever I hunted with over the years. When I guided someone who was new to me, we'd have a discussion about where to aim. Lots of guys read about the shoulder breakdown shot, that always gave me the vapours. I always wanted them to double lung the animal and I knew it was dead, and I knew the hunter had the most room for error. I still remember one fellow who would not listen, shot for the shoulders on a great black bear, broke one shoulder, the bear rolled around bawling and then left faster than anyone could imagine a three legged bear could run. We looked for that bear for days in the rainforest south of Prince George, of course never to see him again. A great trophy lost, where if was to double lung him, he'd have that bear in his trophy room today.
Why try and re-invent the wheel? Double lungers are lethal, effective and ethical. Why try for riskier shots? Why not take the sure thing? And please don't think the newest greased lightening calibre out this year is going to be a game changer. Usually just means the bullet got there faster and more energy went into the bush behind the critter.

Been there, done that. That's all I'm saying.

[209x50]

As politely as possible I ask you to consider that age is no factor in how much experience a hunter has. I've hunted in all the same decades as you but know hunters half my age with more experience around the world.

[leo]

Shot placement, distance shot is taken from and cartridge used are all relevant to the "DANGEROUS GAME" being shot at. The OP specified dangerous game which could be grizzly bears to elephant or lion. Each animal poses its own subtle anatomical differences as does each react to the shot differently. Having said that my preference is as follows

Elephant= brain shot
Cape buffalo=take out 1 or 2 shoulders with bone fragments shredding lungs
Lion=same as cape Buff
Leopard=Double shoulder
Bear= Same as cape Buff

Now I have not hunted Africa(I would like the opinion of those who have), but I have hunted 30+ years in Alberta, shot my fair share of animals including more than a few bears. I am no expert, but I too know what has worked for me. If I can take out at least 1 shoulder and the lungs , that's what I'm going to do. Most importantly, at what ranges would you be shooting at truly dangerous game ? Not likely much more than 150 yards, more like 50-75 yards IMO.

[equanuck]

Originally Posted by big-river

What a storm of controversy already!
Sounds like some of the younger guys figure that experience from someone who has been there and done it before doesn't count for anything because they have some grey in the beard.

Why try and re-invent the wheel? Double lungers are lethal, effective and ethical. Why try for riskier shots? Why not take the sure thing? And please don't think the newest greased lightening calibre out this year is going to be a game changer. Usually just means the bullet got there faster and more energy went into the bush behind the critter.

Been there, done that. That's all I'm saying.

Most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the OP's question regarding "large and dangerous". Black bears on guided hunts? I agree that the bear should have been shot thru heart/lung region as I don't put black bears in the same category as grizzlies. That and the fact that if it's a guided hunt there shouldn't be a question of danger "IF" the guide is any good.
Dangerous depends on distance.