Grazing Lease access

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

The crown "you regular Albertans" are also paid for the energy access on crown land leased to ranchers. The leaseholder gets a small portion and the crown gets the big portion of the yearly access.

And if the crown sells lease land to the leaseholder the leaseholder must also pay the crown for future energy lease revenues, that the crown will forego. I think it's 5yrs worth of energy lease payments.

Seems to be a lot of yapping not a lot of facts in these threads.

Epic, eh JP.

Yapper here, thanks for the info, I did not know that the landowner only got a portion, but I guess we all do now.

[thumper]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

The crown "you regular Albertans" are also paid for the energy access on crown land leased to ranchers. The leaseholder gets a small portion and the crown gets the big portion of the yearly access.

And if the crown sells lease land to the leaseholder the leaseholder must also pay the crown for future energy lease revenues, that the crown will forego. I think it's 5yrs worth of energy lease payments.

Seems to be a lot of yapping not a lot of facts in these threads.

Epic, eh JP.

I follow this issue very closely, and this is the very first I've ever heard of it. The crown gets royalties for the oil/gas, but NOT for access fees on grazing leases.

[thumper]

This is an excerpt from an Alberta Wilderness Association publication on a speech that Bob Scammell recently gave to their organization. As many of you know, Bob Scammell is a Red Deer lawyer that has devoted his life to angling and hunting issues in Alberta.
The full article can be found by Googling the PDF
Alberta’s Public Land Crisis:The Fourth Annual Martha Kostuch Lecture
- or through the link
http://albertawilderness.ca/issues/w...ostuch-lecture




The final object of this financial critique
was the Government of Alberta. Bob used
the phrase “gross negligence” at one point
in his talk. That characterization must have
been aimed at the provincial government.
The government apparently has no solid
estimate of how much money is exchanged
between the petroleum industry and grazing
leaseholders. At a time when the provincial
government is running multi-billion dollar
deficits and is threatening to cut public
services such ignorance may strike some
readers as especially scandalous.
Potatogate testified to the government’s
blindness on this matter. Dave Ealey,
spokesperson for Sustainable Resource
Development, told Bob he could not tell
him how much money grazing leaseholders
received from resource companies on
the 16,000 acres of land the government
proposed to sell. He simply didn’t know.
The information Bob sought is private; it’s
between the leaseholder and the companies.
This exchange buttressed the charge that
our government has no idea how much
money is lost annually to provincial coffers
by allowing grazing leaseholders to keep
surface disturbance payments…” Based
on data compiled some years ago by the
Association of Professional Landmen the
province was likely losing tens of millions
of dollars…then…years ago.
Bob then tried to estimate what the
government’s refusal to collect these
compensation payments might mean today
to the provincial treasury. The estimate
came from data published by the 5,500
acre Antelope Creek Ranch located 18
kilometres west of Brooks and the Eastern
Irrigation District that sprawls roughly
through southeastern Alberta from Bassano
in the west to the Saskatchewan border and
between the Red Deer River to the north
and the Bow River to the south. Using the
per acre petroleum compensation payments
received by these institutions Bob estimated
that this practice alone could be costing the
people of Alberta $130 million per year. This
estimate is nearly 30 percent greater than the
$107 million in education funding Premier
Redford restored after becoming lead

[Redfrog]

What's that smell? Is that fish? Something smells rotten here.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

The crown "you regular Albertans" are also paid for the energy access on crown land leased to ranchers. The leaseholder gets a small portion and the crown gets the big portion of the yearly access.

And if the crown sells lease land to the leaseholder the leaseholder must also pay the crown for future energy lease revenues, that the crown will forego. I think it's 5yrs worth of energy lease payments.

Seems to be a lot of yapping not a lot of facts in these threads.
.

Keep digging...

Originally Posted by thumper

Using the
per acre petroleum compensation payments
received by these institutions Bob estimated
that this practice alone could be costing the
people of Alberta $130 million per year. This
estimate is nearly 30 percent greater than the
$107 million in education funding Premier
Redford restored after becoming lead

I think Bob Scammell and the Association of Petroleum Landman know the story a lot better than the guys who are defending it on here, likely the recipients of the surface payments on crown land. It's a great job if you can get it. What's a $130MM/yr? At least they welcome recreational users with open arms...

[hillbillyreefer]

You are right Thumper the leaseowning government does get extraction royalties, but they also receive payments for the land the energy co. uses both for pipeline and leases. They also tax the living crap out of every lease site and production facility. Don't worry the Governments of Alberta have never met a tax they don't like and are continually dreaming up new things to tax, especially on the oil business.

Whatever fees a leaseowning government charges for oil and gas to use their land is hardly the ranchers fault.

These are the rates that Special Areas currently charges energy companies for leases. This goes into the government coffers, whatever the leaseholder negotiates is between the leaseholder and the energy co.

The rates are currently under review by the Special Areas Board. I assume other lease owning governments charge similar or higher access fees, based on land productivity.

http://specialareas.ab.ca.216-70-99-...QUIREMENTS.pdf

Special Areas Board
Box 820
Hanna, AB T0J 1P0
SCHEDULE OF FEES
RATES F0R MINERAL SURFACE LEASES
1. When a mineral surface lease is granted on public land in a grazing lease or permit: First Year
$25.00 Application Fee
$125.00 Digital Filing Fee
$90.00 per acre for general disturbance, severance, inconvenience, etc. $50.00 per acre for annual rental
$100.00 to cover administration and inspections
Annual rental rate - $50.00 per acre
2. When a mineral surface lease is granted on public land that is unoccupied, in a community pasture,reserved for hay, etc.
First Year
$25.00 Application Fee
$125.00 Digital Filing Fee
$150.00 per acre for general disturbance, severance, inconvenience, etc. $300.00 per acre for annual rental
$150.00 to cover administration and inspections
Annual rental rate - $300.00 per acre
3. When a mineral surface lease is granted on public land contained in a cultivation lease, permit or an irrigation lease.
First Year
$25.00 Application Fee
$125.00 Digital Filing Fee
$90.00 per acre for general disturbance, severance, inconvenience, etc. $100.00 per acre for annual rental
$100.00 to cover administration and inspections
Annual rental rate - $100.00 per acre

RATES F0R PIPELINE AGREEMENTS
Application Fee - $ 25.00
Digital Filing Fee - $125.00
Grazing Lease - $ 50.00 per acre Community Pasture - $ 75.00 per acre Cultivation Lease - $ 80.00 per acre Irrigation Lease - $ 80.00 per acre

[thumper]

Special Areas are just that - 'special'. Under the Alberta Special Areas Act, this specific, east central area is designated as a rural municipality, thus they can (and do) lease their lands differently than the public lands in rest of the province, outside of municipalities.

You are correct, Mr Scammell (and I) did not mention that the Special Areas (or other municipalities such as towns/cities) may charge oil/gas companies 'trespass fees' on public lands. However, the 'public lands' of the Special Areas do not seem to belong to all Albertans, just as City of Calgary public lands do not - they belong to the City of Calgary.

Interestingly, it seems that the Special Areas also have approval to sell their public grazing lease lands (aquired during the depression for unpaid taxes, I believe) to existing Special Areas leaseholders - for their 'enhanced security'. Only Special Area residents can buy this 'public land' and the proceeds from this sale will benefit only residents of the Special Areas - not all Albertans. Therefore, I think it's prudent to exclude the Special Areas unique situation, from this discussion on Alberta public land grazing lease access - and financial gain from trespass fees on those lands.
Excepting that perhaps the Special Areas trespass fee-sharing between the leaseholder and the municipality, might be a model for the rest of the province to adapt!

From the Special Areas websites:
The Minister of Municipal Affairs has authorized the Special Areas Board to offer a limited land sale policy for qualifying leaseholders in the Special Areas. The 10-year sale will provide opportunities for stabilization of the agricultural operating units in the Special Areas. This will be achieved by offering a regulated sale for up to 2-quarter sections of tax recovery land to those operating units that currently hold the disposition of land, and did so as at March 1st, 2004. This sale policy will contribute to the economic well being of Special Areas residents through the enhanced security that deeded land brings to a farming or ranching operation.
The current Tax Recovery Land sale is set to expire on February 28,
2014. If you have not purchased any Tax Recovery Land under this sale
and are interested in purchasing some, please contact your local District
Office to determine if you are eligible.

The Special Areas Board and Advisory Council are continuing to explore
the opportunity for a having a fourth Tax Recovery Land sale. They are
reviewing the ramifications of having another Tax Recovery Land sale,
including:
 the size of the sale (how much land would be available)
 the eligibility criteria (who is eligible)
 the general purpose of the sale and proposed use of resulting funds
The current Tax Recovery Land sale is set to expire on February 28,
2014. If you have not purchased any Tax Recovery Land under this sale
and are interested in purchasing some, please contact your local District
Office to determine if you are eligible.
The Special Areas Board and Advisory Council are continuing to explore
the opportunity for a having a fourth Tax Recovery Land sale. They are
reviewing the ramifications of having another Tax Recovery Land sale,
including:
 the size of the sale (how much land would be available)
 the eligibility criteria (who is eligible)
 the general purpose of the sale and proposed use of resulting funds
The current Tax Recovery Land sale is set to expire on February 28,
2014. If you have not purchased any Tax Recovery Land under this sale
and are interested in purchasing some, please contact your local District
Office to determine if you are eligible.
The Special Areas Board and Advisory Council are continuing to explore
the opportunity for a having a fourth Tax Recovery Land sale. They are
reviewing the ramifications of having another Tax Recovery Land sale,
including:
 the size of the sale (how much land would be available)
 the eligibility criteria (who is eligible)
 the general purpose of the sale and proposed use of resulting funds

[hillbillyreefer]

And that land sale is over as of Feb28/2014. The limit was 2 quarter sections per leaseholder, land that was previously cultivated had to be bought first. Remember this land was confiscated by government during the 1930s because the original owners couldn't afford the taxes.

And as I stated before the crown was paid for 5 years worth of oil and gas leases if present on the land sold.

The money from these land sales goes into the government coffers just like all previous income to the government went into government coffers. How is it possible that income to all Albertans doesn't benefit all Albertans?

[thumper]

The very last line of my post
"  the general purpose of the sale and proposed use of resulting funds "

indicates to me, that the proceeds from these sales goes to Special Areas' coffers, not back to the Province of Alberta.
Just as I would expect that the City of Calgary sales of its public land Or any other municipality) would go into city coffers to benefit city residents, but not all Albertans.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by thumper

The very last line of my post
"  the general purpose of the sale and proposed use of resulting funds "

indicates to me, that the proceeds from these sales goes to Special Areas' coffers, not back to the Province of Alberta.
Just as I would expect that the City of Calgary sales of its public land Or any other municipality) would go into city coffers to benefit city residents, but not all Albertans.

The proceeds go into the Special Areas Trust held by the minister responsible. This money is then used to offset cost associated with running Special Areas, reducing dependency on the AB governments general revenue account. Benefitting all Albertans by lowering the tax burden on residents that don't live in Special Areas. The entire country is founded on the principal of the haves helping out the have nots. Nothing new or special about this setup.

Oh, and it's ten years worth of lease rental payments that Special Areas charges when tax recovery land is sold.

Just an aside the City of Calgary budget is about $8billion/yr, Special Areas is $37 million. Not exactly comparing apples to apples are we?

Wow, total derail, but hopefully educational.