Srd uses cculled moose to make poison wolf baits

[nicaragua]

Originally Posted by 6.5swedeforelk

( In reply to KazDog's query re the right way to control the wolf population.)

Would you be refering to sterilizing the wolves, or more likely I believe, your ultimate goal... the total elimination of ALL hunting, outfitting and trapping activity!

This is what surprises me over and over about people- there are always other ways- like we spend millions on research and can only think about culling animals as the ultimate solution- I suggest that the hunting fraternity need think a little harder. Biologists play god- ecologists shudder. There are many ways to solve the problem - the first thing that needs to happen is the government gets serious and provides us with their data- unless you believe that secretive projects are in the interest of anyone- dig in boys and girls and demand the facts first then look to solutions. There are always solutions. As I said if industry created the problem give them the right motivation to mitigate and they will- why should O pay tax dollars for programs that I cannot access???

[Ianhntr]

Originally Posted by gatorhunter

There is absolutely no way in any universe that moose would be culled. To believe that poison would then be applied to these culled animals so that wolves can be killed is delusional. To suggest that this is all being done to enhance the survivability of another animal is laughable.

What happened in all likelihood is that some roadkilled moose were cut up and used as bait to catch wolves. Some bright light's tin foil hat came loose just long enough for him to come up with the culling moose and lacing them with poison to kill wolves trick.

Run away from this fairy tale as fast and far away as you can!

Sssaaaaaayyyyyyy what? I understood you to be a C/O from here in Manitoba. Are you really trying to say that 1080 isn't being used to cull wolves? Yes I agree with roadkilled moose, but there is nothing delusional about the poison. It's still used even with the knowledge it is killing everything /bald eagles and wolverines definitely included, that are drawn in by the flocks of ravens.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by Ianhntr

Sssaaaaaayyyyyyy what? I understood you to be a C/O from here in Manitoba. Are you really trying to say that 1080 isn't being used to cull wolves? Yes I agree with roadkilled moose, but there is nothing delusional about the poison. It's still used even with the knowledge it is killing everything /bald eagles and wolverines definitely included, that are drawn in by the flocks of ravens.

1080 is being used but what you are descibing is strychnine poisoning. 1080 is very specific in what it kills at what dose.

[gatorhunter]

Killing moose to use as bait for wolves is ludicrous. Any government doing that would be removed by force not votes.

I can only say that to my knowledge governments are no longer permitted to use strychnine and cyanides.

[nicaragua]

Originally Posted by st99

353 went from great to crap, thanks to our super smart university boys who don't spend enough time in the bush. The caribou issue always been related to habitat, but our greedy government will not back down on oil and gas and forestry, so they like to pretend doing something to make themselves feel good.

I stoped buying the alberta outdoorsmen magazine since Boyce start writing. I lost faith in biologists.

Interesting- I was at a meeting last weekend in Jasper of the biologists and students who want to be biologists- Boyce never even said Hello

but it was interesting- the government boys skated away from me- some old timer biologists said bravo but there was never a denial, or affirmation, that the wolf game was not in play

go figure- for me the real debate is openness and transparency- if you are whacking wolves then publish the darned data and let all of us that pay taxes here take a position on information- not too complex if you believe that government is here to be in dialogue with us

by the way I have not yet requested the info under freedom of information- will do so soon

[nicaragua]

Originally Posted by gatorhunter

Killing moose to use as bait for wolves is ludicrous. Any government doing that would be removed by force not votes.

I can only say that to my knowledge governments are no longer permitted to use strychnine and cyanides.

and if you have proof what are you going to do?

[nicaragua]

Originally Posted by Ianhntr

Sssaaaaaayyyyyyy what? I understood you to be a C/O from here in Manitoba. Are you really trying to say that 1080 isn't being used to cull wolves? Yes I agree with roadkilled moose, but there is nothing delusional about the poison. It's still used even with the knowledge it is killing everything /bald eagles and wolverines definitely included, that are drawn in by the flocks of ravens.

Sorry my friends- I am an old biologist- back in the early 80's I used strychnine to kill bears- worked like a damn- and we got results- trouble is I could never come to terms with killing animals in that way to create another few moose for hunters like me- sorry

[nicaragua]

Originally Posted by Ianhntr

Sssaaaaaayyyyyyy what? I understood you to be a C/O from here in Manitoba. Are you really trying to say that 1080 isn't being used to cull wolves? Yes I agree with roadkilled moose, but there is nothing delusional about the poison. It's still used even with the knowledge it is killing everything /bald eagles and wolverines definitely included, that are drawn in by the flocks of ravens.

and hey, just ask your MLA

[nicaragua]

Originally Posted by gatorhunter

Killing moose to use as bait for wolves is ludicrous. Any government doing that would be removed by force not votes.

I can only say that to my knowledge governments are no longer permitted to use strychnine and cyanides.

ok

I just sent a letter to my MLA

Kyle Fawcett

Mr. Fawcett

I understand that SRD are engaged in a wolf control program in the Little Smokey area south of Hinton on the basis of protecting Woodland Caribou, a threatened species under Federal Legislation (SARA) and similar provincial legislation. My very reliable information sources suggest that the Government of Alberta guns down moose in the Little Smokey and laces the carcasses with poison bait to kill wolves, in an attempt to reduce predation on woodland caribou. I also understand that wolf control was initiated in 2005 when there were approximately 80 caribou in this area, and today following years of predator control the population is like 78 animals. This data on population status has been published by a government biologist and the University of Alberta. Do you not think that years of killing wolves and moose without results is a little bizarre?

[nicaragua]

Originally Posted by Kaz Dog

Well now, at least, there are more sources of information, rather than an allegation. Did I ever believe that wolves weren't being killed by "the government" - no. Am I "happy" about the way it appears to be being done, or the reason for it - no. But what is the "right way"/the right thing to do,? It appears to be stemming from economic-human development into the hinterlands of "the earth"/Alberta. As they say, there used to be grizzly bears on the prairies - do we want them walking between Moose Jaw & Regina now-a-days, let alone Calgary & Okotoks? Do we end all development in central/northern Alberta? Is there political will to change the way things are done? I hope so, as I do not want to see the extinction of the caribou. And I also do not want to see development stopped. I am hoping for a middle ground solution. None to give, as I do not have enough information to render an informed opinion.

My friend there are always solutions- my advice to government is very simple. if you believe industry is the problem then charge them with the solution but provide incentives. Do not look into your own ranks for intelligent solutions- clearly they do not exist. Set up a competition for industry- let them propose solutions and provide a tax break to the winner- want creative ideas- dangle a dollar- DUH!

[ChrisHntr]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

1080 is being used but what you are descibing is strychnine poisoning. 1080 is very specific in what it kills at what dose.

Can you back this up with any fact? And how are they going to control what dose? Are you trying to say that 1080 will only kill wolves?

[ChrisHntr]

Originally Posted by gatorhunter

Killing moose to use as bait for wolves is ludicrous. Any government doing that would be removed by force not votes.

I can only say that to my knowledge governments are no longer permitted to use strychnine and cyanides.

How about a government that would kill elk out of a national park to prevent the possible spread of TB to cattle farms outside of the park... ie: Riding Mountain National Park. Also, is it not possible that the infection was introduced to the elk from the cattle?

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by ChrisHntr

Can you back this up with any fact? And how are they going to control what dose? Are you trying to say that 1080 will only kill wolves?

Link ? Or conjecture ?

[gatorhunter]

The court of public opinion not including the immediate area's ranching community disagreed with killing elk under that context. Unfortunately the affected lobby group was very powerful.

Hopefully the one-sided and horrible decision will be reflected politically.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by nicaragua

ok

I just sent a letter to my MLA

Kyle Fawcett

Mr. Fawcett

I understand that SRD are engaged in a wolf control program in the Little Smokey area south of Hinton on the basis of protecting Woodland Caribou, a threatened species under Federal Legislation (SARA) and similar provincial legislation. My very reliable information sources suggest that the Government of Alberta guns down moose in the Little Smokey and laces the carcasses with poison bait to kill wolves, in an attempt to reduce predation on woodland caribou. I also understand that wolf control was initiated in 2005 when there were approximately 80 caribou in this area, and today following years of predator control the population is like 78 animals. This data on population status has been published by a government biologist and the University of Alberta. Do you not think that years of killing wolves and moose without results is a little bizarre?

Good letter, a person learns something new everyday, today I learned Little Smoky is south of Hinton.....

[brownbomber]

Originally Posted by hal53

Good letter, a person learns something new everyday, today I learned Little Smoky is south of Hinton.....

Oh Hal.... How you make me lol from time to time.
That's one of your better efforts

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by ChrisHntr

Can you back this up with any fact? And how are they going to control what dose? Are you trying to say that 1080 will only kill wolves?

http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/u.../07/LC0300.pdf

Australia and New Zealand use most of the 1080 in the world. The fact sheet provides a ton of info on how 1080 works and why it is used against pests. The risk of secondary poisoning is supremely low unlike strychnine.

As for dosing you don't just sprinkle this stuff on a dead animal and hope that wolves or coyotes eat enough. Each tablet of 1080 contains enough toxicant to kill a coyote. A wolf would have to eat 2 or 3 tablets worth to kill it. So put 3 tabs in a single dose bait or in one incision of the carcass and let them feed.

Each animal has different tolerances to 1080.

[ChrisHntr]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

http://www.feral.org.au/wp-content/u.../07/LC0300.pdf

Australia and New Zealand use most of the 1080 in the world. The fact sheet provides a ton of info on how 1080 works and why it is used against pests. The risk of secondary poisoning is supremely low unlike strychnine.

As for dosing you don't just sprinkle this stuff on a dead animal and hope that wolves or coyotes eat enough. Each tablet of 1080 contains enough toxicant to kill a coyote. A wolf would have to eat 2 or 3 tablets worth to kill it. So put 3 tabs in a single dose bait or in one incision of the carcass and let them feed.

Each animal has different tolerances to 1080.

The main concern for using 1080 isn't the secondary poisoning (although it shouldn't be overlooked). It is the fact that any animal that finds these bait animals is at risk from this poison. SRD biologists have also stated that the poisoning and "helicopter hunts" of these wolves are not a fix to the problem. The issue is strictly habitat. Would you happen to know where they might document what animals have been found dead near these bait sites. Or is that something they prefer to keep quiet?

Sometimes animal control is required. These bait sites however are only putting other predators at risk, and are not going to accomplish the purpose that SRD states they are for.

http://albertawilderness.ca/issues/w...wolves/history

[wwbirds]

It is the fact that any animal that finds these bait animals is at risk from this poison.

Quite the opposite, birds or animals who ingest a dead wolf or coyote that has been killed with 1080 are not going to get enough poison to be lethal.
For coyotes it is my go to poison as the target coyote will take it to the pack and spit up before dying and another in the pack will swallow the spit up chicken head so many in the pack will die from one poison. As in the example Donkey Oatey provided eagles and pigs would have to consume between 6 and 12 baits (chicken heads generally contain 1 to 3 4.5 mg doses) to be lethal. Dogs and cats would not take as much but unlikely they would get enough poison from feeding on a carcass like strychnine.

[ChrisHntr]

I think a point was missed. What is to stop other predators from finding the poisoned carcass. This leaves other species (lynx, wolverine etc.) at risk of being poisoned.

[wwbirds]

I think you have missed the point. If a coyote or wolf is killed by 1080 another coyote or wolf would have to eat the whole coyote or wolf including the chicken head partially digested in the stomach to be lethal. It blocks oxygen utilization in the victim animal but has insufficient strength to render other predators fatal doses once diluted through ingestion. Fatal effect is not apparent in species that may be eating parts of the deceased animal. 1080 is also completely inert after exposure for 3-4 weeks into natural elements. Strychnine on the other hand enters the body and poisons any animal that eats the infected carcass and strychnine portions of poisoned animals are still deadly.

[ChrisHntr]

Not arguing the secondary poisoning issue with you. I am arguing the primary poisoning. Other predators will find the initial poisoned carcass, will they not?

[wwbirds]

1080 is a little 4.5 mg pill. for up to a 50 pound animal so there is no poisoned carcass "for other animals to find".

Only 1 4.5 mg pill is fatal to a coyote (perhaps 3 for a cougar or wolf)but as I tried to explain earlier it would take 30 mg to kill a bald eagle so they would have to go around and find 6 baits. Baits are inserted into the skull cavity of a chicken head through the mouth with a knife. Don't know of any birds that would swallow a whole chicken head but it is a fast gulp for a coyote especially if he is with a group not wanting the others to get it before he does. These chicken heads are often placed out in a dirt hole set like a coyote trap would be so overhead birds would not see it or know it is there. A dog or even cat might dig it up but only the dog would likely swallow the whole chicken head. Big cats like cougar and lynx could be susceptible so it is not perfect but it is the most reliable canine poison I know of. Only carnivores are drawn to the chicken head so most herbivores would not bother with it although I have heard it is fatal to rabbits.

[ChrisHntr]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

1080 is a little 4.5 mg pill. for up to a 50 pound animal so there is no poisoned carcass "for other animals to find".

Only 1 4.5 mg pill is fatal to a coyote (perhaps 3 for a cougar or wolf)but as I tried to explain earlier it would take 30 mg to kill a bald eagle so they would have to go around and find 6 baits. Baits are inserted into the skull cavity of a chicken head through the mouth with a knife. Don't know of any birds that would swallow a whole chicken head but it is a fast gulp for a coyote especially if he is with a group not wanting the others to get it before he does. These chicken heads are often placed out in a dirt hole set like a coyote trap would be so overhead birds would not see it or know it is there. A dog or even cat might dig it up but only the dog would likely swallow the whole chicken head. Big cats like cougar and lynx could be susceptible so it is not perfect but it is the most reliable canine poison I know of. Only carnivores are drawn to the chicken head so most herbivores would not bother with it although I have heard it is fatal to rabbits.

This thread was posted regarding using moose carcasses to bait wolves, not chicken heads for coyotes.

[wwbirds]

It will be in bite size chunks with a 1080 pill or pills inserted in the chunks laid out. they do not apply a bag of pills to a carcass like the old strychnine poisoning days to lessen the chance of non target species.