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Old 02-12-2012, 01:35 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:36 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:36 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:37 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:37 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:38 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:40 PM
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  #278  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:49 PM
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Perhaps this video will debunk your young earth theory, and why carbon dating's restrictions are known (excuse some of the language, it is not my video)..
Good insight. However, in no way does it debunk what I've posted. Did you read it and compare? In fact it supports in some areas what Dr. Walter has noted in that Carbon dating works best on organic lilke organisms such as vegetaion, trees, and plants. That is likely why Dr. Walther looks at decreased vegetation and other occurances that would affect Carbon-14. Carbon dating does work, the question is it's accuracy even with new technology. There are newer methods available today that have rendered previous dating conclusion obsolete.

Dr. Walter is not referring to snails or providing bones laced in shellac. He is presenting a fair argument for the inaccuracy of Carbon dating, whereas, if what has been said in this Video is true. There does seem to be some underhanded behaviour on the behalf of the Scientist presenting his argument.
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  #279  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:00 PM
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If there was always a cure for every ailment of mankind, then they would never taste death. This world would then become their heaven, would it not? So is it about flesh and blood or about ones soul or spirit? Does the soul age or is it in a constant state, encompassed by the flesh or tent that surrounds it ? The flesh ages with time as gravity pulls it back into the soil from whence it came? From birth the soul begins to retain knowledge, as an infant that begins to examine its finger and toes, what it does with that knowledge will determine its destiny. For it has free choice/will to make a decision from what is made, and is without excuse. However, there might be an escape clause "forgive them for they do not know what they do."

Were many of these sickness present when mankind first inhabited the earth? Prior to sin was there sickness? Is this really what the believers pray or should I consider this sarcasm from a spirit that opposes truth? But like pilot said "what is truth?" as the very answer to his question stood before him.

Stem cell research - lets kill life to have life? I think there are better ways to receive life than this. Why is man so afraid to die? True believers are not, because they acknowledge that their sufferings have come to an end, and embrace Life, not death.

Cartoons, and sarcastic posters...is this your best?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-12-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:42 PM
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Evolution versus Creationism.

The debate bible literalists just can't stand, as all the factual, verifiable evidence supports evolution.

But don't take my word for it.

Here is a great article from Nature magazine. They said it much better then I ever could, it is a credible source, and what they discussed is peer reviewed science.

Oh, and they give original references.

Current stuff, not stuff written more then 2000 years ago. They actually know that a bat is a mammal, and not as the bible says (Deuteronomy 14:18), a bird. They also know that a rabbit does not chew it's cud, unlike the bible in the same chapter.

You know, the scientific reality.
Good articles, did you happen to notice the qualifying statement on page 1 indicating this article is all firmly in the 'theoretical' realm? Here it is:
"This study demonstrates the existence of potential transition forms in the fossil record." - the existence of POTENTIAL transition forms ... As you go through the articles note how often terms like, "suggesting", "seems to have been", "could have been", "can be", "can cause" - all of which suggest the author(s) are not putting this forward as 'proof positive' but as theoretical evidence that is potentially possible. In that regard, the article can at best be used to support the position that evolution is theoretically potential / possible - based on interpretations of the evidence.

One problem I have with (edit here) macro-evolutionary theory, as interesting and perplexing and speculative as it is, is this: what's the 'end game', the goal, what's the purpose?

Does evolution always lead to a 'higher', better creature?
If so we humans may be in trouble! Although our mind capacity may be improving (although that's certainly debatable too ) our physical prowess, generally speaking is slipping. I don't remember where I read it, it was some time ago, an article about a study that showed how in general we cannot physically compare to many 'ancient' people who were stronger, faster, could jump further and higher,and were a lot more agile. I know I'd be in trouble

Note: re the "bat" in Deuteronomy 14:18, you are making a mistake applying modern English western taxonomy (the science of classification) to an ancient Hebrew word that in ancient eastern taxonomy identified bats with other 'winged creatures'. Even some flying insects were lumped in with bats and birds! The text is not suggesting anyone saw bats (or insects) as birds, it is saying they belong to the 'group' of creatures with wings that could fly. Bats, along with the other 'winged creatures' listed in that passage you refer to were considered to be "unclean" and not fit for human consumption. Again (I get tired of saying that with you ) try reading in the greater context - at minimum verses 11-20. See if you can figure it out (Hint: 'unclean' winged creatures)

About the word translated "hare", or as you say "rabbit" in verse 7, the Hebrew word is, transliterated into English, arnabun or, in ancient Assyrian, arnabo which is believed to describe an unknown animal that 'springs' - jumps like a rabbit. The problem is, nobody really knows exactly what that animal was! So, English translators gave it the word "hare", which, probably because they look like they are always chewing was considered to be a passable translation.

So you see, it's not so easy to dismiss Biblical texts without really, really getting into them!

Last edited by Mistagin; 02-12-2012 at 02:54 PM.
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  #281  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:45 PM
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If there was always a cure for every ailment of mankind, then they would never taste death. This world would then become their heaven, would it not? So is it about flesh and blood or about ones soul or spirit? Does the soul age or is it in a constant state, encompassed by the flesh or tent that surrounds it ? The flesh ages with time as gravity pulls it back into the soil from whence it came? From birth the soul begins to retain knowledge, as an infant that begins to examine its finger and toes, what it does with that knowledge will determine its destiny. For it has free choice/will to make a decision from what is made, and is without excuse. However, there might be an escape clause "forgive them for they do not know what they do."

Were many of these sickness present when mankind first inhabited the earth? Prior to sin was there sickness? Is this really what the believers pray or should I consider this sarcasm from a spirit that opposes truth? But like pilot said "what is truth?" as the very answer to his question stood before him.

Stem cell research - lets kill life to have life? I think there are better ways to receive life than this. Why is man so afraid to die? True believers are not, because they acknowledge that their sufferings have come to an end, and embrace Life, not death.

Cartoons, and sarcastic posters...is this your best?
who killed anything?

this is a rediculous debate just like the one that was had over terry schiavo, when religion gets it's own house in order then it can put it's ethics upon me.
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  #282  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:57 PM
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who killed anything?

this is a rediculous debate just like the one that was had over terry schiavo, when religion gets it's own house in order then it can put it's ethics upon me.
Again no one is putting any ethics upon you, there is a choices before you. Did you not already make it? And in your reference to religion, you might want to be more specific as to what religion you are referring to because there are many beliefs that form a religion.

The information that now surrounds you is inescapable and will be so until the end of time. Would you wish to exist in a vacume with only one-way of thinking, would that bring you peace?
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  #283  
Old 02-12-2012, 04:43 PM
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing ?
Then does evil come from ?
Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call him God ?" — Epicurus (341-270BC), Greek philosopher.
Q. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

A. To the first part of this question the answer is Yes; to the second part of this question the answer is No.

To prevent evil God cast the serpent, also known as the devil out of the realms of Heaven. Therefore, He is both willing and able.

"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" ( Isa 14:12)

"The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him." (Rev. 12:9)

In addition, He gave mankind a command, and free will or choice so that evil could be prevented. But what did man choose?

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (Gen 2:17).

Man ignored His command and chose to come to know evil. It is man that is not willing to prevent evil. What God was not willing to do is to take free will or choice from mankind. But there is coming a time when man will not have freewill or chose anymore.

Q. Then he is not omnipotent.

A. Yes He is - Did He not cast the devil out of heaven, and is He not taking out of His creation that which by free will or chose will come?

Q. Is he able, but not willing ?

A. He is both able, and willing - This is the very reason for creation.

"who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" (2 Tim. 1:8-9)

He already knew that man would sin. He created this world to put souls were they would hopefully best learn, then provided them with a way to get out.

"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." (Acts 17:26-27)

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

His intent is to destroy evil once and for all.

Q. Then he is malevolent.

A. No- because He is both able and willing to deliver man from his sins

Q. Is he both able and willing?

A. Yes - covered above

Q. Then where does evil come from ?

A. It comes from the Devil or Satan - he is the author

Q. Is he neither able nor willing?

A. If we are referring to the Devil - No he is not willing or able to prevent evil because that is what he is.

Q. Then why call him God ?"

A. If we are talking about God in the personage of Jesus Christ, He has already shown that He both willing and able to prevent evil, as can be seen from what is presently in progress in the world around us. It is mankind who is willing to do evil. Therefore, mankind suffers the consequence of his own actions.

Through the blood of Jesus Christ, God will cleanse all mankind, who come to Him, from evil. Therefore, He is both willing and able.

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-12-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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  #284  
Old 02-12-2012, 04:52 PM
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Again no one is putting any ethics upon you, there is a choices before you. Did you not already make it? And in your reference to religion, you might want to be more specific as to what religion you are referring to because there are many beliefs that form a religion.

The information that now surrounds you is inescapable and will be so until the end of time. Would you wish to exist in a vacume with only one-way of thinking, would that bring you peace?
linking stem cell research to something dying is rediculous, stem cell research comes from aborted fetuses between week 5 and 9, are you telling me that the women got pregnant on purpose just so they could have an abortion between week 5 and 9 so they could donate stem cells? that argument is akin to people that live to be 70 and donate their bodies to science to do research upon, sure there were abortions and that's unfortunate but that doesn't mean that we can't get information from it to help save others in the future? im sure your view would change if it effected your children, and im sure you would regret your position if your child/grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research but instead of trusting medical science you went with a rediculous argument because your priest or whatever told you to go with.

the bible was written by man, it holds no more proof of anything that harry potter does that was written by a woman,it's mind control for weak minded people, and if you truly believe in a talking snake, and a talking buring bush I question your intelegence.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:09 PM
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linking stem cell research to something dying is rediculous, stem cell research comes from aborted fetuses between week 5 and 9, are you telling me that the women got pregnant on purpose just so they could have an abortion between week 5 and 9 so they could donate stem cells? that argument is akin to people that live to be 70 and donate their bodies to science to do research upon, sure there were abortions and that's unfortunate but that doesn't mean that we can't get information from it to help save others in the future? im sure your view would change if it effected your children, and im sure you would regret your position if your child/grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research but instead of trusting medical science you went with a rediculous argument because your priest or whatever told you to go with.

the bible was written by man, it holds no more proof of anything that harry potter does that was written by a woman,it's mind control for weak minded people, and if you truly believe in a talking snake, and a talking buring bush I question your intelegence.
At what point does life begin? How many fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research? If the fetus was not aborted intentional, I do not see a problem. Nor do I see a problem with using cadavers from which to learn, as long as they treat the dead with respect.

And no I would not regret it if my child or grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research because I do not think in what ifs. I work with what is. If a time like that ever comes, I will trust in God to lead me in my decision. I don't limit Him in His knowledge or power and ability. And who said I have a priest, although I have a High Priest who is Christ. So many assumptions, and suppositions.

Believe as you will, afterall you have been given free choice, it is a gift...use it wisely.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:38 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE



No other Man has as many songs, literature, paintings, and disciples following Him. How can this be possible if it were a myth? Easy answer SPIRIT ... they that ask will receive.

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-12-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:50 PM
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At what point does life begin? How many fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research? If the fetus was not aborted intentional, I do not see a problem. Nor do I see a problem with using cadavers from which to learn, as long as they treat the dead with respect.

And no I would not regret it if my child or grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research because I do not think in what ifs. I work with what is. If a time like that ever comes, I will trust in God to lead me in my decision. I don't limit Him in His knowledge or power and ability. And who said I have a priest, although I have a High Priest who is Christ. So many assumptions, and suppositions.

Believe as you will, afterall you have been given free choice, it is a gift...use it wisely.
are you saying fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research?

thinking like yours is what has held us back as a species, religious superstition for not doing things that can help people, pigs were killed for a long time for insulin before scientists invented synthetic insulin, by your logic diabetics shouldn't have taken insulin and therfore died themselves because another form of life had to die for them to get it.same with organ donation should your children not accept a new kidney if they need it because something had to die for you to get it?
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:51 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE



No other Man has had so many songs, literature, paintings, and disciples following Him. How can this be possible if it were a myth? Easy answer SPIRIT ... they that ask will receive.
santa clause has alot of songs,followers,movies dedicated to him.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:08 PM
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are you saying fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research?

thinking like yours is what has held us back as a species, religious superstition for not doing things that can help people, pigs were killed for a long time for insulin before scientists invented synthetic insulin, by your logic diabetics shouldn't have taken insulin and therfore died themselves because another form of life had to die for them to get it.same with organ donation should your children not accept a new kidney if they need it because something had to die for you to get it?
No where have I implied what you are stating. Your accusations are unfounded. Read carefully what I have written please. I said using cadavers was acceptable, and did not say anything about organ transplants or insulin not being acceptable. In addition, did I not say fetuses aborted by natural cause were not acceptable. However, if they were being aborted for the sake that someone wanted to kill their child, then I would question if they were acceptable.

I happen to administer insulin on a regular basis in my present profession, and work with transplants with no difficulty. Again accusation, suppositions, and ramblings to try and prove what?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-12-2012 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:13 PM
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No where have I implied, what you are stating. Your accusations are unfounded. Read carefully what I have written please. I said using cadavers was acceptable, and did not say anything about organ transplants or insulin, not being acceptable. In addition, did I not say fetuses aborted by natural cause, not for the sake that someone wanted to kill their child was acceptable. I happen to administer insulin on a regular basis in my present professional position, and work with transplants with no difficult. Again accusation, suppositions, and ramblings to try a prove what?
im trying to prove how someone's religion is holding the rest of us back as a species, it's politicizing a small issue into a political point by the right wing extremists, what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives? and that's not even my problem if you feel like that fine do whatever you want, my problem is when you stop it for me because of your side of the story is my problem.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:15 PM
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im trying to prove how someone's religion is holding the rest of us back as a species, it's politicizing a small issue into a political point by the right wing extremists, what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives? and that's not even my problem if you feel like that fine do whatever you want, my problem is when you stop it for me because of your side of the story is my problem.
Am I holding you back? Are you not given free will and choice? Then use it, but be prepared to deal with the consequences if you do not use it wisely. And as said before does saving the flesh, save ones life? Maybe according to your definition, but not all of us want to buy what your trying to sell. Are you willing to try and steal from us our free choice or will? To appease your own desires? If so you would likely function in a country were there is a dictatorship.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:18 PM
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Am I holding you back? Are you not given free will and choice? Then use it, but be prepared to deal with the consequences if you do not use it wisely.
who are you to tell me what's right and wrong? I thought only god could judge me?
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  #293  
Old 02-12-2012, 06:22 PM
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who are you to tell me what's right and wrong? I thought only god could judge me?
Again you are not reading the sentence you are quoting. I encouraged you to use your free will did I not? And I hope you use it wisely. With all actions there is a consequense or reaction...I hope for your sake they are good, but that is not to say that they will be. Who knows but with time...Were has judgement been passed in this?
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:30 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:35 PM
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If there is one thing I hate it is someone pushing something down my neck be it a PowerUP salesman an atheist or a preacher.The more you push your idea the more I hate it
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:36 PM
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I do not believe it is healthy for me to engage in the type of arguing that you seek eastcoast. It is unfruitful and not prudent.

Therefore, I wish you the best in what ever it is that you seek. And my God Bless
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:38 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE



No other Man has as many songs, literature, paintings, and disciples following Him. How can this be possible if it were a myth? Easy answer SPIRIT ... they that ask will receive.
Yeah, pretty much. I can think of a number of millions of kids that believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. At some point they realize, "Hey, it's a story, a nice story, but just a story", and then perpetuate that myth to their kids.

No harm done in any case.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:43 PM
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Yeah, pretty much. I can think of a number of millions of kids that believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. At some point they realize, "Hey, it's a story, a nice story, but just a story", and then perpetuate that myth to their kids.

No harm done in any case.
I completely agree with you, I guess that's why it doesn't remain for eternity, or over the lifetime of a person.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:49 PM
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im trying to prove how someone's religion is holding the rest of us back as a species, it's politicizing a small issue into a political point by the right wing extremists, what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives? and that's not even my problem if you feel like that fine do whatever you want, my problem is when you stop it for me because of your side of the story is my problem.
Eastcoast, you and I have been on the same side on most points of this issue, but there are a few things in this post we are not.

Some have considered me right of Attila the Hun, and you already know I am not even remotely fundamentalist. It's not a great idea to equate conservative leanings with religious thought, and I am disgusted that especially in the U.S. that the fundamentalists have hijacked the conservative political agenda.

I am very, very mixed on the whole abortion issue. From my perspective, there are very few reasons to have one; rape and incest are certainly two, and the life of the mother being endangered. I do think life begins at conception, and having a daughter who saw the ultrasound and then miscarried, I can not see how anyone can't say that it is not a human being in the womb. Seeing the little thumbs and limbs at an early stage certainly supports that viewpoint

Others may have a different point of view.

Stem cell research, as far as I am aware, does not require an aborted fetus. My understanding is that umbilical cord stem cells can be used. If I am wrong in this, please someone correct me.

None of this is connected with thinking a 2000 year old book of stories is the meaning of all life. That still doesn't make sense to me. After all, it is in the believe in science that has allowed parents to view their fetuses in the womb, not the magical believe in something occult.
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  #300  
Old 02-12-2012, 07:05 PM
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Harvesting the Unborn

http://www.str.org/site/DocServer/harvest.pdf?docID=150

I would think the intent is there, would you agree?

I also recall that there was a Bill that they were trying to pass that many people felt would eventually lead in the direction of embryo harvesting. It's difficult to know what the governments are actually doing or have approved at this time. If you stumble across any other good reads let me know.
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