Ukaraine/Zelensky maybe not as innocent as the Media makes them out

[Grizzly Adams1]

In the end, Ukraine is as corrupt as Russia, that hasn't changed. Zhelenski recently fired a bunch of top ranking oligarchs for profiteering off the war effort. Stalin would have had them shot. It's a war by proxy, the West is hoping to weaken Russia, so they can avoid a direct confrontation they are not militarly or morally willing to do.

Grizz

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ~altiplano~

"General Anders of the Polish 2 corps told me that if his corps got between a German Army and a Russian Army he would have trouble deciding which direction to fight."

The fact is that when the German Army moved into Ukraine they were viewed as liberators, that's how swimmingly Russian rule of Ukraine goes. That's where the Nazi accusations originate from, they'd rather fascist Germans then totalitarian Russians, can't say I blame them.

"The Russians are mongols. They are Slavs and a lot of them used to be ruled by ancient Byzantium. From Genghis Kahn to Stalin (Putin) they have not changed. They never will and we will never learn, at least , not until it is too late."

I believe I get your point but some may read it differently.
More details are warranted on the German occupancy of Ukraine.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukr...Soviet-Ukraine

I’d suggest people read this whole link to better understand. This is but a short bit of the info.

The Nazi occupation of Soviet Ukraine


Table of Contents
The surprise German invasion of the U.S.S.R. began on June 22, 1941. The Soviets, during their hasty retreat, shot their political prisoners and, whenever possible, evacuated personnel, dismantled and removed industrial plants, and conducted a scorched-earth policy—blowing up buildings and installations, destroying crops and food reserves, and flooding mines. Almost four million people were evacuated east of the Urals for the duration of the war. The Germans moved swiftly, however, and by the end of November virtually all of Ukraine was under their control.

Initially, the Germans were greeted as liberators by some of the Ukrainian populace. In Galicia especially, there had long been a widespread belief that Germany, as the avowed enemy of Poland and the U.S.S.R., was the Ukrainians’ natural ally for the attainment of their independence. The illusion was quickly shattered. The Germans were accompanied on their entry into Lviv on June 30 by members of OUN-B, who that same day proclaimed the restoration of Ukrainian statehood and the formation of a provisional state administration; within days the organizers of this action were arrested and interned in concentration camps (as were both Bandera and, later, Melnyk). Far from supporting Ukrainian political aspirations, the Nazis in August attached Galicia administratively to Poland, returned Bukovina to Romania, and gave Romania control over the area between the Dniester and Southern Buh rivers as the province of Transnistria, with its capital at Odessa. The remainder was organized as the Reichskommissariat Ukraine.


In the occupied territories, the Nazis sought to implement their “racial” policies. In the fall of 1941 began the mass killings of Jews that continued through 1944. An estimated 1.5 million Ukrainian Jews perished, and over 800,000 were displaced to the east; at Baby Yar (Ukrainian: Babyn Yar) in Kyiv, nearly 34,000 were killed in just the first two days of massacre in the city. The Nazis were aided at times by auxiliary forces recruited from the local population. (See also Holocaust: The Einsatzgruppen.)

[CaberTosser]

It’s sad that folks buy into so much of the propaganda around this, particularly the Russian propaganda. We have two leaders, one used to be a comedian & the other was a career KGB officer, if people can’t make a determination who is lying more to them from that alone, they’re not particularly smart people.

I read some commentary by a former Canadian Ambassador to Ukraine who spent years living there. He acknowledged lots of the corruption that was there but also noted in detail how it’s been changing for the better in the past decade or so, significant change they had been undertaking before the RU army rolled in. Are they perfect? Nobody is.

The only question to ask yourself is whether Ukrainian civilians (men, women, children & seniors alike) deserve to be murdered by expansionist foreign invaders, that’s the only question that matters.

[Swede]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

His hero is also the same guy who championed the conspiracy that Biden stole the election. Not one shred of proof has every been found. Trumps war chest collected from his minions to root out the conspiracy failed and he pocketed the money. Every court case lost due to lack of evidence.

Yet… some hold dear to this theory that likely Putin’s minions keep pushing to undermine western democracy.

This guy is the messiah of the hard core Republican Trumpers. Bizarre world some live in.

сумасшедшие рабочие места

You should change your handle to The Master baiter.

[Smoky buck]

The only things we know about what is taking place in Ukraine or what caused the conflict is what the media/government tells us. Neither have a track record of being 100% reliable and information is commonly selectively reported or not reported. There has been misinformation spread during every war throughout history by all sides involved

All we really know is the citizens of both countries have be dragged into a war of political BS and they were not given a choice in the matter. The leaders are playing games with the citizens well hiding from any direct conflict that could put their safety at risk

[jstubbs]

Originally Posted by sns2

AO has joined the ranks of Putin disinformation.

Bizarre.

Take note.

Is it really that bizarre? There are plenty of guys here who clearly spend most of their free time consuming conspiracy fear porn from internet grifters.

[DLab]

So much propaganda/disinformation on both sides of this, I'm not going to wade into the discussion.
I have a hard enough time deciphering the same going on in Canada with our own Politics.

I can't help but wonder though, with the US sending M1 Abrams and F-16's?, getting involved directly rather than through a proxy NATO member just how far can Putin/Russia be pushed before Tactical Nukes are actually brought to the table? Biden has been very clear in his position concerning a response to that situation should it arise.
When I read this morning papers about a high altitude spy balloon NORAD is tracking, suspected of being Chinese, having a look at Montana Missile sites, just South of us I might add, well......

Likely nothing, business as usual in the Spy vs. Spy business I'm sure and I have actual real Tin foil for my hats not fake aluminum foil.

[jef612]

Originally Posted by Rvsask

It’s weird Jef, when you’re middle ground politically you actually question things from both sides and seek further explanation, truth or clarity. The easy way out is accepting only your “facts”. I get it, here that makes you a commie libtard.

Honestly just had this discussion with my kids on Sunday. You are not a political party - and you don't have to fit any mold that society thinks you should. You are free to believe anything - but you have an obligation to support that belief with the evidence you have examined thoroughly. People tend to skip that second part - and go straight to the "free speech" and "I can believe anything I want" rhetoric. You can I suppose - just like I can believe they are an idiot and not worth my time...

We should feel the urge to mold political parties to fit your views of the world - not vice versa. That is how the system was intended. Unfortunately - it is not how it works now.

Politicians work for the people - not vice versa. Its about time our society remembers this...

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Glion

No offence Sun and I do respect you. However I have found over the past few years a decent amount of "facts" that you have propogated have also proven to be untrue so I take alot of what you say with a large grain of salt.

Ie Trump colluding with Russia when now we see some who were accusing him are actually guilty of that.actually the fact is he asked Putin for help… was that in jest? He is well quoted as fawning terribly over the man like Trudeau has fawned over chinas leader

Saying Putin was hiding from Covid when you were probably one of the biggest and strongest advocates on here to do the same, not to mentionhow terribly wrong you have been in that entire debate, however hindsight is 20/20 au contraire. I never advocated what you infer. Please stop making things up to start an argument. Mods have asked to have that issue closed

2 things can be true at the same time, Putin can be a terrible dictator who rules in tyranny and at the same time Zelensky can be incredibly corrupt and manipulative. Funny how scared Putin is of Zelensky to push these narratives so hard and with such fervent drive that he does sucker some in. The reality of Zelensky is that he was a Russian speaking entertainer who was an actor. Corruption in Ukraine ticked off many. He played the president and on a lark people said his pretend president skills are better that our real presidents skills. So people pushed for him to run. He never thought he’d win but rather would be good fun. Then he won. Now he has no clue… no deep state political backing… fish out of water. So he starts trying to do his best in an old Soviet system. Then the war comes and rather that flee he faces potential death head on. In the trenches. On the streets in cities being bombed. He shows true courage some of you can’t recognize and courage that Putin can never understand as Putin assassinates with poison or simply disappears his rivals. Putin’s doesn’t go to the front lines. But he does run scared from Covid.

I don't always see this as good vs evil, however I feel sorrow for the individuals caught in this game that is being played by others that are using them as the meat to feed it. Putin started all this death for his own ambitions of grandeur and it’s just so sad so many die as a result. In Russia you just have to hope your parents have money and influence so that you don’t get drafted. There were a ton of rich 20+ year old males partying it up in Varadero after landing from Moscow the other week. All I can say…if Canada was at war and my countrymen were dying… I wouldn’t be able to go on vacation.
Cheers

In Canada we can agree to disagree and still go fishing and congratulate each other on a great fish.

But my comments in red for giggles.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by sns2

AO has joined the ranks of Putin disinformation.

Bizarre.

Take note.

See how easy it is? The Russians may not be much on the battle field, but they have a long sordid history of planting little seeds throughout the world. Their tentacles are everywhere.