Military Resources to Ukraine exceeds aid to Canada's own Military

[raab]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

That war is long lost buddy.
Our children will never know the freedoms Canadians once had.
I'm pretty sure most Canadians don't remember the freedom Canadians once had.
And it's not communism you should be blaming.
It's edge stage capitalism, and the death of the middle class.
Enjoy the show.

End stage capitalism is just communist propaganda. Capitalism is a system that evolved so we did not have to fight each other for resources. It is simply I’ll give you an orange for an apple on a bigger scale. Capitalism is not a form of government, whereas communism is.

Communism is slavery and a reversion of social norms. I see very little difference between communist North Korea and Feudal Europe. Everyone is made slave to the king, and the head of states passes from one family member to another.

[ak77]

Originally Posted by raab

I am amazed how many people do not realize we are in this war whether we like it or not. And if we lose this war, your children may not know the freedom all Canadians once had.

Oooo, cold war time style propaganda starts to rear it's head... How long before russians living in usa/Canada start getting locked in internment camps?
We all know that "fight for freedom" (aka "we need your oil") was behind every war in the middle East since ever...
You know what's going to be oil of 21 century? Food. Ukraine accounts for about 1/2 of arable land of the EU. Since late 90s - early 2000s up until 2016 about 10% of Ukraine land belonged to multinational agro corporations, with some reports suggesting that now almost 70% off Ukrainian land doesn't belong to Ukraine... that the push goes by those corporations to increase productivity by using GMO... to change the type of crops to "high yield high protein soyabean crops"... that in order to increase/maximize profits the land currently owned by private small scale owners (farmers) is getting consolidated...(i.e. small guys getting squeezed out of the ownership)...

I'm not saying Russia has rights to do what they do, whether the reason is to save ethnic Russians from Ukrainian fascists, or to expand/solidify it's sphere of influence over probably the most valued resource there's is.
But don't tell me that West is fighting the war for anyone's freedom. There are dollar signs everywhere you turn. Nobody who has any say in decision to support Ukraine in any way gives zero fuсks about anyone's freedom.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by hogie

They really don't like each other. In one way or another they sided with Germany as needed or the USSR in ww2. What ever was in best interests at the time.

Why get involved with blood conflicts from centuries?

If you feel it's worthy then get over there. I don't want kids from here having to fight your battles.

Not sure I’m following

History is clear. Ukraine welcomed Germany when they invaded because they were kicking out Russians who were persecuting Ukrainians. Once Ukraine realized Germany was worse they wanted them out also.

One can’t take a short moment in time to paint all of history. That doesn’t make sense.

As for fighting. There are some international battalions in Ukraine. It’s an individual choice and Canada still recommends not traveling to Ukraine.

If one feels Russia will stop in Ukraine… I have some rocks for sale that will be worth millions in 1000 years. Buy now and lock in.

Someone mentioned Zelensky. This is a guy who got nominated as President because he played on on TV. People wanted change because of long term corruption that was and is part of the Russian system. He then was voted in and likely felt it was over his head. Still he has tried to do some good but in a system with systemic corruption… it is a daunting task.

EU has specific needs as far as corruption is concerned. NATO even more strict.

Fast forward to the war. Russia is coming… trying to encircle Kiev. Assassins probing around looking for him and others. When it was looking bleak… western countries offered to evacuate him. Instead he said … “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride,”

He has left the country lately to ask for help and always went home. He has been on the street wen bombs were flying. He’s been to the front lines.

Putin? He has been hiding like Trudeau during a protest. No respect for him… tons for Zelensky.

OP was about military aid. They need help. I grew up in Edmonton… huge Ukrainian population. Used to go for community celebrations a lot. Wonderful and friendly community. They are friends.

I have fishing friends who are Russian. I don’t hate Russians… just what Russian government is doing. They were stupid. Had tons of money coming in from oil and gas. Lots of opportunity to build their economy and position of respect in the world. Instead they are pouring money into war, killing people, and capturing territory from other countries. Just tragic for so many families.

Putin… go home. Stop the war. All your excuses are so full of holes… it might as well be just hot air.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Cross Eyed Cowboy

Actually I'm not suggesting anything...though the author of story may certainly be doing so!!

You wrote the title of this thread and added your comments yourself - and submitted it - which is a grossly inaccurate fabrication and utter nonsense.

Even the article you attached said absolutely nothing near to what you posted.

so, when I read your thread, my BS meter alarm went off, so I fact checked you and I corrected you and provided FACTS.

If we want to debate stuff, let's use facts as a basis. If you are still unhappy about what we sent them, then fine, that's cool ..... let's discuss it. But let's not make a grain of sand into a mountain.

[raab]

Originally Posted by ak77

Oooo, cold war time style propaganda starts to rear it's head... How long before russians living in usa/Canada start getting locked in internment camps?
We all know that "fight for freedom" (aka "we need your oil") was behind every war in the middle East since ever...
You know what's going to be oil of 21 century? Food. Ukraine accounts for about 1/2 of arable land of the EU. Since late 90s - early 2000s up until 2016 about 10% of Ukraine land belonged to multinational agro corporations, with some reports suggesting that arrive 70% off Ukrainian land didn't belong to Ukraine... that the push goes by those corporations to increase productivity by using GMO... to change the type of crops to "high yield high protein soyabean crops"... that in order to increase/maximize profits the land currently owned by private small scale owners (farmers) is getting consolidated...(i.e. small guys getting squeezed out of the ownership)...

I'm not saying Russia has rights to do what they do, w whether the reason is to save ethnic Russians from fascists, or to expand/solidify it's sphere of influence over probably the most valued resource there's is.
But don't tell me that West is fighting the war fire anyone's freedom. There are dollar signs everywhere you turn. Nobody who has any say in decision to support Ukraine in any way gives zero fuсks about anyone's freedom.

Russians aren’t the problem. From the Orthodox Church to Alexander Ovechkin Canadians love the Russian people. We must never lose sight of the fact we are at war with an evil ideology, not a people. The people of Russia and China know the horrors of communism better than most Canadians and are often the most vocal against it. The English majors and intellectuals who have never lived it…not so much.

[hogie]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Not sure I’m following

History is clear. Ukraine welcomed Germany when they invaded because they were kicking out Russians who were persecuting Ukrainians. Once Ukraine realized Germany was worse they wanted them out also.

One can’t take a short moment in time to paint all of history. That doesn’t make sense.

As for fighting. There are some international battalions in Ukraine. It’s an individual choice and Canada still recommends not traveling to Ukraine.

If one feels Russia will stop in Ukraine… I have some rocks for sale that will be worth millions in 1000 years. Buy now and lock in.

Someone mentioned Zelensky. This is a guy who got nominated as President because he played on on TV. People wanted change because of long term corruption that was and is part of the Russian system. He then was voted in and likely felt it was over his head. Still he has tried to do some good but in a system with systemic corruption… it is a daunting task.

EU has specific needs as far as corruption is concerned. NATO even more strict.

Fast forward to the war. Russia is coming… trying to encircle Kiev. Assassins probing around looking for him and others. When it was looking bleak… western countries offered to evacuate him. Instead he said … “The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride,”

He has left the country lately to ask for help and always went home. He has been on the street wen bombs were flying. He’s been to the front lines.

Putin? He has been hiding like Trudeau during a protest. No respect for him… tons for Zelensky.

OP was about military aid. They need help. I grew up in Edmonton… huge Ukrainian population. Used to go for community celebrations a lot. Wonderful and friendly community. They are friends.

I have fishing friends who are Russian. I don’t hate Russians… just what Russian government is doing. They were stupid. Had tons of money coming in from oil and gas. Lots of opportunity to build their economy and position of respect in the world. Instead they are pouring money into war, killing people, and capturing territory from other countries. Just tragic for so many families.

Putin… go home. Stop the war. All your excuses are so full of holes… it might as well be just hot air.

Actions not words . Get over there and do something if you feel that strongly about it.

History shows they have sided where it worked best. Won't change.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by hogie

Actions not words . Get over there and do something if you feel that strongly about it.

History shows they have sided where it worked best. Won't change.

Your history interpretation is incorrect and doesn’t follow facts.

I support Canada supporting Ukraine. Doing nothing is the same as supporting Russia. Ukraine can’t survive as a country without help of the other free world countries.

Stating people should go over and fight as mentioned it is personal choice and it’s rare for someone to risk death in such a fight.

Material support and humanitarian support is highly valued.

If you disagree… feel free to protest and write letters. It’s not Russia so your won’t go to jail or disappear or fall hard and die in random accidents here.

We can just agree to disagree on your interpretation.

[ruffy71]

And for the record, Ukraine has never officially asked any foreign soldiers to fight. They have said over and over again they are not asking for our kids, just guns.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak77

Oooo, cold war time style propaganda starts to rear it's head... How long before russians living in usa/Canada start getting locked in internment camps?
We all know that "fight for freedom" (aka "we need your oil") was behind every war in the middle East since ever...
You know what's going to be oil of 21 century? Food. Ukraine accounts for about 1/2 of arable land of the EU. Since late 90s - early 2000s up until 2016 about 10% of Ukraine land belonged to multinational agro corporations, with some reports suggesting that now almost 70% off Ukrainian land doesn't belong to Ukraine... that the push goes by those corporations to increase productivity by using GMO... to change the type of crops to "high yield high protein soyabean crops"... that in order to increase/maximize profits the land currently owned by private small scale owners (farmers) is getting consolidated...(i.e. small guys getting squeezed out of the ownership)...

I'm not saying Russia has rights to do what they do, whether the reason is to save ethnic Russians from Ukrainian fascists, or to expand/solidify it's sphere of influence over probably the most valued resource there's is.
But don't tell me that West is fighting the war for anyone's freedom. There are dollar signs everywhere you turn. Nobody who has any say in decision to support Ukraine in any way gives zero fuсks about anyone's freedom.

It’s a world issue of farm ownership. Prices have been low in many crops and costs high so it makes family farms hard to live off of. Corporate farms have grown because of economies of scale.

No one is killing people in Ukraine over wheat. Putin wants land, wants power… Ukraines industrial base and farming and natural resources is just a fringe benefit.

The free world is opposing Russia attacking another country because they know it won’t stop there.

Ukraine is run by a Jewish person whose primary language is Russian. The Russian state media narrative you put forward is not believed. One could easily see the Wagner group as a fascist organization supported by Putin. There are fascist media personalities in Russia spreading hatred of Ukrainians. Putin’s own governments comment about removing Ukraine from the map shows a very distinct racist view of Ukraine by Putin irregardless of so many familial ties between many Russians and Ukrainians.

I firmly believe many people with a power of decisions in the free world want to help Ukraine win so they don’t fall under the repressive Putin regime.

The most valuable resource in the world is freedom. We should never forget that.

Russian government lies almost all the time. People laughed when Lavrov stated Ukraine attacked Russia. They lie so much, control the media and internet so well, there is no population more impacted by propaganda than the Russian population.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Your history interpretation is incorrect and doesn’t follow facts.

I support Canada supporting Ukraine. Doing nothing is the same as supporting Russia. Ukraine can’t survive as a country without help of the other free world countries.

Stating people should go over and fight as mentioned it is personal choice and it’s rare for someone to risk death in such a fight.

Material support and humanitarian support is highly valued.

If you disagree… feel free to protest and write letters. It’s not Russia so your won’t go to jail or disappear or fall hard and die in random accidents here.

We can just agree to disagree on your interpretation.

You do not have to go to Ukraine to fight. This battle is on our soil, pitting us against each other to undermine our democracy. When the NDP make people like Anne McGrath the National Director and Rachel Notley’s Chief of Staff that should tell you something.

This is Anne back in 1984 running for the communist party.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...+alberta&hl=en

And here is her background

https://carleton.ca/politicalmanagem.../anne-mcgrath/

But don’t worry the NDP just want to save the poor and oppressed.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by raab

You do not have to go to Ukraine to fight. This battle is on our soil, pitting us against each other to undermine our democracy. When the NDP make people like Anne McGrath the National Director and Rachel Notley’s Chief of Staff that should tell you something.

This is Anne back in 1984 running for the communist party.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...+alberta&hl=en

And here is her background

https://carleton.ca/politicalmanagem.../anne-mcgrath/

But don’t worry the NDP just want to save the poor and oppressed.

Trudeau uses Putin’s playbook. When justifying something that’s wrong he just throws out excuse after excuse hoping enough stick to enough people that he gets off the hook.

Putin has come up with so many fanciful excuses. Many have been part of a long game propaganda plan inside Russia. The lead up lies fall in line… one after another.

[esher]

As a first generation Ukrainian my take is this, when the slavs have no one to fight they fight with themselves, history proves it. It has been said it is bred into us, so far seems true. In ww2 hitler didnt expect the backlash, putin either. Hence putin not doing well with a bunch of cranky relatives.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

And for the record, Ukraine has never officially asked any foreign soldiers to fight. They have said over and over again they are not asking for our kids, just guns.

I am going to avoid other comments for now, but really? These are just the top results with the search words as indicated:



And the next one was an article from CBC that didn't fit into the previous screenshot:



They have asked, numerous times. They have straight up asked NATO to participate as well with NATO troops entering the war.

Also, Sundance, the “I need ammunition, not a ride” is a fairytale like “Russian ship, F off” or whatever it was. Along with many other things that didn’t happen.

This is not a communist ideology war, raab; you are very confused on the subject.

It is really sad. Really sad. If people were more informed on the actual issues and “happenings”, this could have been over long time ago. Better yet, averted to begin with. Alas. I said many months ago that thousands had already died on both sides and more will. The count now is in tens of thousands at least and it is still going with no end in sight.

Maybe, I’ll post more later or not. It is tiring and… upsetting, really.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

If one feels Russia will stop in Ukraine… I have some rocks for sale that will be worth millions in 1000 years. Buy now and lock in.

I have to ask this. Who do you think would be next?

[ak77]

Someone mentioned Zelensky. This is a guy who got nominated as President because he played on on TV. People wanted change because of long term corruption that was and is part of the Russian system. He then was voted in and likely felt it was over his head. Still he has tried to do some good but in a system with systemic corruption… it is a daunting task.

You know what that say - "Can't beat them - join then". Right before the war Zelensky's approval rating was 27%... down from 73 when he won the election in 2019. Her positioned himself as anti-corruption hero during the election. 2018-2021 position of Ukraine as second most corrupt country in Europe hasn't changed. Most i heard about anti-corruption measures was a couple of weeks ago when few high/mid level ranking officials were publicly sacked. And when he gets thrown under the bus by West, I'm sure he'll be ok... I'm sure Zelensky dynasty will be ok for generations...

And lastly, a little correction... You say "corruption is the past of Russian system". It's part of Eastern Slavic system. I almost want to say that it's inside Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian DNA. If there is a book on corruption, those three nations co-authored it.

[chasingtail]

Well if it gets worse and they start drafting my kids into WW3 it’s time to go live in a wall tent in the forest. Not fighting for the Globalists. People don’t know in 2014 the Russian friendly Ukraine president was overthrown by the West and Zelenskyy is the puppet just like they did in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Putin isn’t attacking my way of life but the Canadian government sure is.
Eastern Europe and Russia might be the only safe places to live in 20 years hopefully they don’t destroy it.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by raab

Communism is slavery and a reversion of social norms. I see very little difference between communist North Korea and Feudal Europe. Everyone is made slave to the king, and the head of states passes from one family member to another.

If you can't see that human greed is the enemy of any 'noble' (which depending on your world view socialism might be) idea of controlling the means of production, I don't blame you.
But consumerism got us to here and now, not the idea of 'sharing'. And consumerism is about to consume our rights, liberties, and freedoms in the name of safety.

[1899b]

Originally Posted by cody j

Canada and the US will do whatever it takes to help Ukraine even nuclear apocalypse

except actually get involved. LOL

This whole campaign has been long and drawn out to say the least. My Great Grandmother is from Kiev and i just imagine how this all would have played out if Ukraine had oil or something worthwhile to exploit and profit from....

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

I have to ask this. Who do you think would be next?

Moldova right now...
https://apnews.com/article/us-intell...574fc247395026

Georgia as well.....
https://www.ft.com/content/a9f1e05f-...e-990f71891f6e

Russia has a very, very long shady track record, and those that have dealt with them know to be wary. They are going with the same play book by inserting Russians into areas, and then claiming to need to protect their rights. Remember Moldova? How about Crimea in 2014? Georgia in 2008? Poland (invaded by Russia and their Nazi partner 1939) and Finland (invaded by Russia as well in 1939) know first hand how far you can trust Russians and are currently building up their military to deal with them.

[barsik]

Originally Posted by 1899b

except actually get involved. LOL

This whole campaign has been long and drawn out to say the least. My Great Grandmother is from Kiev and i just imagine how this all would have played out if Ukraine had oil or something worthwhile to exploit and profit from....

you hit the nail on the head, it is totally about oil and gas. when the kremlin stooge yanukovych was forced out of office by an uprising of the citizens the kremlin had to move fast to occupy crimea. shell oil made a discovery of oil and gas just offshore in the black sea around 2006 and ukraine would have had the rights to these fields which would then be sold to the eu, undercutting russia. the situation as it is unfolding now is that the eu, and most of the world is going to completely shut out russian oil and gas.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Make due amounts to parking equipment, until there is money to buy parts, meanwhile there is money to send to the Ukraine, and for diversity programs.

Agree, far from perfect but man what an adventure.
Reminds me of ice fishing now....the highs are high and the lows are low.

We all would be singing a different story if say the yanks wanted to take us, you go to bed one day planning for the next and yup villages, towns, cities simply destroyed. Where you once worked, kids played no longer there....simply brutal.

[1899b]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Agree, far from perfect but man what an adventure.
Reminds me of ice fishing now....the highs are high and the lows are low.

We all would be singing a different story if say the yanks wanted to take us, you go to bed one day planning for the next and yup villages, towns, cities simply destroyed. Where you once worked, kids played no longer there....simply brutal.

Devastating, bleak and sad....


Wondering how long this will continue to go on without any real boots to the ground interventions from other countries...

I have this feeling that if it was 60 years ago, it would be full on war with outside involvement.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

I am going to avoid other comments for now, but really? These are just the top results with the search words as indicated:



And the next one was an article from CBC that didn't fit into the previous screenshot:



They have asked, numerous times. They have straight up asked NATO to participate as well with NATO troops entering the war.

Also, Sundance, the “I need ammunition, not a ride” is a fairytale like “Russian ship, F off” or whatever it was. Along with many other things that didn’t happen.

This is not a communist ideology war, raab; you are very confused on the subject.

It is really sad. Really sad. If people were more informed on the actual issues and “happenings”, this could have been over long time ago. Better yet, averted to begin with. Alas. I said many months ago that thousands had already died on both sides and more will. The count now is in tens of thousands at least and it is still going with no end in sight.

Maybe, I’ll post more later or not. It is tiring and… upsetting, really.

Ukraine started the website to control volunteers coming from different countries, with different levels of experience. Volunteers that started arriving BEFORE the website was put up.

And that is not what I referred to. Ukraine has said many times that they would love NATO to intervene. And in the next breath states that they know that will never happen, that they accept that, and will fight on their own. THAT has been stated many many times.

This is similar to the Americans that edited a Zelensky speech to make it sound like he was asking for American sons and daughters to die in Ukraine.

Very upsetting indeed.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

I have to ask this. Who do you think would be next?

Moldova by military force.

Long term plan already in place for Russia to annex Belarus. It maybe done without military as the groundwork has already been started.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by raab

End stage capitalism is just communist propaganda. Capitalism is a system that evolved so we did not have to fight each other for resources. It is simply I’ll give you an orange for an apple on a bigger scale. Capitalism is not a form of government, whereas communism is.

Communism is slavery and a reversion of social norms. I see very little difference between communist North Korea and Feudal Europe. Everyone is made slave to the king, and the head of states passes from one family member to another.

End stage Capitalism has enslaved as much as End stage Communism, no way around that. Price of oil being a good example.

Grizz

[Cross Eyed Cowboy]

[/B]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

The only reason to complain about sending stuff to Ukraine once you know facts and not spin, is if you sympathize with Putin.

Rarely has CBC been credited or known for factual reporting.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ak77

You know what that say - "Can't beat them - join then". Right before the war Zelensky's approval rating was 27%... down from 73 when he won the election in 2019. Her positioned himself as anti-corruption hero during the election. 2018-2021 position of Ukraine as second most corrupt country in Europe hasn't changed. Most i heard about anti-corruption measures was a couple of weeks ago when few high/mid level ranking officials were publicly sacked. And when he gets thrown under the bus by West, I'm sure he'll be ok... I'm sure Zelensky dynasty will be ok for generations...

And lastly, a little correction... You say "corruption is the past of Russian system". It's part of Eastern Slavic system. I almost want to say that it's inside Russian, Ukrainian, Belorussian DNA. If there is a book on corruption, those three nations co-authored it.

The USSR was controlled out of Russia. The systems in place of Russia design. Corruption was taught by Russians as they controlled all the countries you named.

Anyone can surely imagine and realize that no one can walk into a system like like and wave a magic wand. It takes generations to beat the corruption out of the system. It’s not done over night and anyone saying Zelensky is complicit in promoting that system is surely pushing one of Putin’s narratives that Ukraine is corrupt so Russia needs to liberate them.

Russia is corruption at the apex.

Ukraine was moving to deal with corruption as it was a requirement for full EU membership and the main reason they couldn’t join NATO. Russian born corruption disease needs time to cure. If it was easy to do… then Putin’s fans on here need to ask… with all Putin’s control, why hasn’t he dented Russian corruption?

The war is solely to control others. Rebuild the USSR. Set up a legacy for Putin. He also used it to consolidate his power. Arresting opposition. Shutting down independent news.

Canada needs to support Ukraine. Russia needs to stop their war.

[Glion]

How many people here have been to Russia in the last 15 years? What was your opinion after visiting there on society?

It is a shame that a few on here look so narrowly at such complex issues. You can say that you don't want to send military aid and at the same time very much oppose what Putin is doing. Those are not mutually exclusive.
Putin is wrong for invading
The west did provoke unrest in Ukraine and push an uprising while at the same time Russia was trying to influence them as well.
Zelensky is corrupt, you don't ban opposition from legally existing if you say you want democracy.
The west has been provoking Russia, this does NOT mean their response was warranted. However we cannot deny we have been playing around with their spheres of influence.
Whether spheres of influence should be a thing is another subject but the west has the same thing.
That region has been at war for years, this has been percolating for a bit.
There is ample corruption in Ukraine
There is ample corruption in Russia
There is ample corruption in Canada/USA
While I believe we still maintain the moral high ground over Russia I do not believe it is by leaps and bounds as it used to be.
Finally I pity those caught in the middle, my wife and I have been helping out some groups out there and their stories are different from what CBC says.
They are less fussed over whether they are in Ukraine or Russia and just want it to end.

[ruffy71]

It's not for me, or anyone else to decide what Ukraine does.

How would we feel if the world told us Canadians that we're the USA's puppet, and we need to start listening to China more, respect China's sphere of influence. Stop provoking China?

Ukrainians decided of their own free will that they wanted to specifically separate from Russia's sphere of influence, no different than every other former Soviet country. If it's okay for Estonia to not want anything to do with Russia, it sure as heck is just fine for Ukrainians to decide the same thing.

If Russia is such an honest broker of justice and peace, how come absolutely none of the former Soviet countries like Poland, Latvia, Ukraine want anything to do with them.

Too bad so sad for Russia. If it wasn't such a hot mess of corruption, and autocracy, this, all of it, would never have happened.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

It's not for me, or anyone else to decide what Ukraine does.

How would we feel if the world told us Canadians that we're the USA's puppet, and we need to start listening to China more, respect China's sphere of influence. Stop provoking China?

Ukrainians decided of their own free will that they wanted to specifically separate from Russia's sphere of influence, no different than every other former Soviet country. If it's okay for Estonia to not want anything to do with Russia, it sure as heck is just fine for Ukrainians to decide the same thing.

If Russia is such an honest broker of justice and peace, how come absolutely none of the former Soviet countries like Poland, Latvia, Ukraine want anything to do with them.

Too bad so sad for Russia. If it wasn't such a hot mess of corruption, and autocracy, this, all of it, would never have happened.

The Taiwanese saw the benefits of Western society and declared themselves independent of China. Same ethnic group and language. In Real Politik they belong to China. Much as we want to deny it.
Ukraine is as corrupt as the rest of the former Soviet Republic, but a Western oriented Ukraine is in our best interest. So much the better if this war leaves a very weakened Russia.

Grizz