The Future Of Hunting In Alberta

[marky_mark]

Only 2 posts
Again someone made up another profile

[59whiskers]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

How many descendants are living off of the land as their forefathers did? Their forefathers didn't have 4x4 trucks, atvs, scoped rifles, laser rangefinders etc. Their forefathers didn't drive hundreds of miles to spend a weekend trying to shoot a trophy bull or ram, so that they could brag to their friends, and post pictures on Facebook. Their forefathers didn't live in homes with running water, central heat and electricity, and they didn't watch television, surf the net, and order their hunting gear online. As to the deal, read the terms of the treaties, the deal might not be what you think it is.

As for outfitters, they are selling the opportunities that should be enjoyed by our tax paying residents, but they are actually closer to living off the land than the unregulated hunters, because they actually make part of their living because of hunting.

The fact is, that opportunity for resident hunters will continue to dwindle, as the outfitters and the unregulated hunters try to save more opportunity for themselves, at the expense of resident hunters.

Bingo

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Only 2 posts
Again someone made up another profile

Yea in June of 2017!

[7magtime]

NCC nailed it...

"Anyone who believes that completely unregulated hunting is sustainable with modern weapons and transportation is, in my opinion, a fool. This isn’t Native bashing, it’s a reality check."


I'd like to add, unknown numbers of unregulated hunters coming to Alberta to hunt from other provinces needs to be addressed as well IMO......

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

NCC nailed it...

"Anyone who believes that completely unregulated hunting is sustainable with modern weapons and transportation is, in my opinion, a fool. This isn’t Native bashing, it’s a reality check."


I'd like to add, unknown numbers of unregulated hunters coming to Alberta to hunt from other provinces needs to be addressed as well IMO......

exactly....why is it that people with degrees and diplomas etc with relevance to their field they are employed in cant see this?
if this is not stopped and regulated equally right across the board then all the studies, mandatory surveys are only justifying someone's cubicle and salary but not benefiting anything else...sad but true.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

exactly....why is it that people with degrees and diplomas etc with relevance to their field they are employed in cant see this?
if this is not stopped and regulated equally right across the board then all the studies, mandatory surveys are only justifying someone's cubicle and salary but not benefiting anything else...sad but true.

There’s no way they can’t see the problem
Their hands are just tied with solving the problem
Most think it’s political suicide to make these reforms
I’d vote for anyone that had the guts to make the changes needed

[Ram94]

https://www.outdoorcanada.ca/does-al...e-up-too-much/

TJ lays is out well.

[Big Lou]

Originally Posted by R3illy

It seems you've pin pointed the issue and have the only solution that makes sense. Treaty hunters are the problem.

With that in mind I'll ask you a question. Why are they blamed for everything here? Their the reason animal numbers are low. Their the reason people dont want to fill their harvest surveys. Their the problems at CFB wainwright or suffield.

Every thread treaty hunters are the problem. Maybe that's the case with this(I dunno) but I'll point out it sure seems like an easy cop out that people like to jump on.

Eventually as hunters keep blaming first nations for everything when there is an actual issue that needs to get addressed it will get lost in all the other whining.

Well I waited 24 hours after reading your post to respond as I was pretty hot initially and probably would have received a time out had I blasted you immediately.

I’ve stated this before but here’s a refresher. I’m Métis. I have my Harvesting Status. I buy my tags and enter the draws like anyone else does and should in my opinion. My dollars contribute to the same kitty as every other guy out there. I like hunting with my friends and family. A guy hears this equality talk day in and day out. Well if everyone wants to and expects to be treated as equals then we better darn well be equals.

SNS2 made a very good post. Granted, I guarantee there are fellows who are race based in commenting; that’s not what this is all about. Are we all hunters? Sure. But first and foremost as hunters we need to be conservationists. That’s what nearly everyone here is talking about and if you weren’t so dug in and obtuse with your thinking you just might see this.

We have game populations/species that are struggling in cases. Some localized, some wide spread. We have disease factors to combat. Harsh winters which nobody have the capacity to predict accurately. Natural predator issues. Increased population. The list goes on. All being managed or trying to be managed by our Bio’s. So look at that short list of variables that cannot be controlled and imagine what a daunting task it is to try and manage for sustainability. FOR EVERYONE. I personally don’t think that unregulated harvest is a Chicken Little scenario and that the sky is falling. But what I do believe is that unregulated harvest is just one more variable that the equation does not need in trying to manage sustainable game populations. Especially in regards to fisheries. For crying out loud, I’ve seen first hand how badly unregulated harvest decimates fisheries and I want nothing to do with it.

So whatever. Keep your stance if you like, but you’d be crazy not to at least try and be objective about what people are saying. Approved for unregulated harvest or not, this starts with personal choices on our part. The right choices if you’re seeing things big picture. It gets back to the whole “just because something is legal, doesn’t make it right” mindset. I’ve said my piece. As you were.

[Wolftrapper]

Originally Posted by Big Lou

Well I waited 24 hours after reading your post to respond as I was pretty hot initially and probably would have received a time out had I blasted you immediately.

I’ve stated this before but here’s a refresher. I’m Métis. I have my Harvesting Status. I buy my tags and enter the draws like anyone else does and should in my opinion. My dollars contribute to the same kitty as every other guy out there. I like hunting with my friends and family. A guy hears this equality talk day in and day out. Well if everyone wants to and expects to be treated as equals then we better darn well be equals.

SNS2 made a very good post. Granted, I guarantee there are fellows who are race based in commenting; that’s not what this is all about. Are we all hunters? Sure. But first and foremost as hunters we need to be conservationists. That’s what nearly everyone here is talking about and if you weren’t so dug in and obtuse with your thinking you just might see this.

We have game populations/species that are struggling in cases. Some localized, some wide spread. We have disease factors to combat. Harsh winters which nobody have the capacity to predict accurately. Natural predator issues. Increased population. The list goes on. All being managed or trying to be managed by our Bio’s. So look at that short list of variables that cannot be controlled and imagine what a daunting task it is to try and manage for sustainability. FOR EVERYONE. I personally don’t think that unregulated harvest is a Chicken Little scenario and that the sky is falling. But what I do believe is that unregulated harvest is just one more variable that the equation does not need in trying to manage sustainable game populations. Especially in regards to fisheries. For crying out loud, I’ve seen first hand how badly unregulated harvest decimates fisheries and I want nothing to do with it.

So whatever. Keep your stance if you like, but you’d be crazy not to at least try and be objective about what people are saying. Approved for unregulated harvest or not, this starts with personal choices on our part. The right choices if you’re seeing things big picture. It gets back to the whole “just because something is legal, doesn’t make it right” mindset. I’ve said my piece. As you were.

Excellent post. Thanks for your insight and choice to be a conservationist first.

[R3illy]

Log- you yourself just said there are lots of variables. The person I responded to has blamed everything on first nations hunters. All I've pointed out is that the poster has a pretty narrow view to put all the blame on first nations.

He spelled it out in one sentence. There are no rams due to first nations sustinence hunters. It's a pretty big statement. Of course we have nothing to back that type of claim.

I'll stick to my comment that theres an easy cop out for many users here. Heck it's the same 6 people posting the same first nations drama on 7 different threads right now. If we took that out of the equation we would have no activity around here.

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by Big Lou

Well I waited 24 hours after reading your post to respond as I was pretty hot initially and probably would have received a time out had I blasted you immediately.

I’ve stated this before but here’s a refresher. I’m Métis. I have my Harvesting Status. I buy my tags and enter the draws like anyone else does and should in my opinion. My dollars contribute to the same kitty as every other guy out there. I like hunting with my friends and family. A guy hears this equality talk day in and day out. Well if everyone wants to and expects to be treated as equals then we better darn well be equals.

SNS2 made a very good post. Granted, I guarantee there are fellows who are race based in commenting; that’s not what this is all about. Are we all hunters? Sure. But first and foremost as hunters we need to be conservationists. That’s what nearly everyone here is talking about and if you weren’t so dug in and obtuse with your thinking you just might see this.

We have game populations/species that are struggling in cases. Some localized, some wide spread. We have disease factors to combat. Harsh winters which nobody have the capacity to predict accurately. Natural predator issues. Increased population. The list goes on. All being managed or trying to be managed by our Bio’s. So look at that short list of variables that cannot be controlled and imagine what a daunting task it is to try and manage for sustainability. FOR EVERYONE. I personally don’t think that unregulated harvest is a Chicken Little scenario and that the sky is falling. But what I do believe is that unregulated harvest is just one more variable that the equation does not need in trying to manage sustainable game populations. Especially in regards to fisheries. For crying out loud, I’ve seen first hand how badly unregulated harvest decimates fisheries and I want nothing to do with it.

So whatever. Keep your stance if you like, but you’d be crazy not to at least try and be objective about what people are saying. Approved for unregulated harvest or not, this starts with personal choices on our part. The right choices if you’re seeing things big picture. It gets back to the whole “just because something is legal, doesn’t make it right” mindset. I’ve said my piece. As you were.

One of the more refreshing posts I’ve seen in awhile. Thanks Lou for your unbiased input and forward way of thinking, much appreciated!

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Big Lou

Well I waited 24 hours after reading your post to respond as I was pretty hot initially and probably would have received a time out had I blasted you immediately.

I’ve stated this before but here’s a refresher. I’m Métis. I have my Harvesting Status. I buy my tags and enter the draws like anyone else does and should in my opinion. My dollars contribute to the same kitty as every other guy out there. I like hunting with my friends and family. A guy hears this equality talk day in and day out. Well if everyone wants to and expects to be treated as equals then we better darn well be equals.

SNS2 made a very good post. Granted, I guarantee there are fellows who are race based in commenting; that’s not what this is all about. Are we all hunters? Sure. But first and foremost as hunters we need to be conservationists. That’s what nearly everyone here is talking about and if you weren’t so dug in and obtuse with your thinking you just might see this.

We have game populations/species that are struggling in cases. Some localized, some wide spread. We have disease factors to combat. Harsh winters which nobody have the capacity to predict accurately. Natural predator issues. Increased population. The list goes on. All being managed or trying to be managed by our Bio’s. So look at that short list of variables that cannot be controlled and imagine what a daunting task it is to try and manage for sustainability. FOR EVERYONE. I personally don’t think that unregulated harvest is a Chicken Little scenario and that the sky is falling. But what I do believe is that unregulated harvest is just one more variable that the equation does not need in trying to manage sustainable game populations. Especially in regards to fisheries. For crying out loud, I’ve seen first hand how badly unregulated harvest decimates fisheries and I want nothing to do with it.

So whatever. Keep your stance if you like, but you’d be crazy not to at least try and be objective about what people are saying. Approved for unregulated harvest or not, this starts with personal choices on our part. The right choices if you’re seeing things big picture. It gets back to the whole “just because something is legal, doesn’t make it right” mindset. I’ve said my piece. As you were.

You are only a few that follow this way of life even though allowed to hunt outside of the regs that some must follow....unfortunately not all are like you and that's a huge problem....bouncing from province to province filling reefer trucks full of animals etc....

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

exactly....why is it that people with degrees and diplomas etc with relevance to their field they are employed in cant see this?
if this is not stopped and regulated equally right across the board then all the studies, mandatory surveys are only justifying someone's cubicle and salary but not benefiting anything else...sad but true.

Knowing the issues and legally being able to do anything about it are 2 different things. It's pretty simple. If Kenny can turn the pipes off in days he could probably fix some of these issues if our new government cared about our natural resources. Time to point the fingers at the people that can actually make change. IMO unregulated hunting is quite low on the list of hunting concerns in private land WMUs anyways.

IMO I think the SM hunting craze is more of an issue and has slowly been killing our sport as well as hunters never being united with each other. Read a few threads here after a long break and it's still the same thing.,,attacking each other. We can't even have big buck nights without hunters fighting with other hunters.

Hunters use to be some of the best conservationists but I don't think that anymore after dealing with them for decades both thru work and recreationally.

Hunting has changed. I love hunting with my kids but after tree stands, trail cameras and blinds get stolen they lost interest in some of the fun of scouting. Awful behaviour of other hunters from diving in areas they don't have permission, finding shot but no effort to recover animals, shooting into areas we are walking from roads, loss of permission due to ass hats (shot livestock, gates open, shooting around cattle, etc) etc all have made my kids less interested in coming out. I already lost one girl, my wife is on the fence now but luckily one daughter still likes it. Their friends at school aren't interested in it like they use to and we live in a rural town. I see way less kids at the check station then I did 10yrs ago. The future isn't great and mostly has to do with other hunters behaviour out there or that it is just less enjoyable now.

We can all do a lot better to make sure there is a future.

S

[58thecat]

shedcrazy I just want you to know that those you speak of are not hunters rather criminals....fight the good fight and don't give up sparking interest in hunting, fishing and our shooting sports....like any sport there are going to be a few bad apples but don't let them spoil what we like to do....keep those around you interested by staying positive...hard to do sometimes but worth it in the long run.

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

shedcrazy I just want you to know that those you speak of are not hunters rather criminals....fight the good fight and don't give up sparking interest in hunting, fishing and our shooting sports....like any sport there are going to be a few bad apples but don't let them spoil what we like to do....keep those around you interested by staying positive...hard to do sometimes but worth it in the long run.

I know us hunters like to say that they are criminals/poachers but they are hunters. Most think they aren't doing anything wrong. It is almost standard practise. It's not just a few bad apples... trust me. Work a check station one day.

The future is getting new hunters out. We as a group are doing a poor job of recruitment as lots think that just means more competition.

Lots of hunters think that's good but that is why nothing is being done about unregulated harvest, self governing outfitting, less enforcement, increasing wildlife management, increasing habitat, having an actual budget to monitor, etc. Our voice is divided and weak.

I am a competitive and sponsored Ultra runner and Triathlete. Those sports are growing and it's easy to see why. That world is less cut throat than hunting and the people are more friendly haha

S

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I know us hunters like to say that they are criminals/poachers but they are hunters. Most think they aren't doing anything wrong. It is almost standard practise. It's not just a few bad apples... trust me. Work a check station one day.

The future is getting new hunters out. We as a group are doing a poor job of recruitment as lots think that just means more competition.

Lots of hunters think that's good but that is why nothing is being done about unregulated harvest, self governing outfitting, less enforcement, increasing wildlife management, increasing habitat, having an actual budget to monitor, etc. Our voice is divided and weak.

I am a competitive and sponsored Ultra runner and Triathlete. Those sports are growing and it's easy to see why. That world is less cut throat than hunting and the people are more friendly haha

S

I think you just got a bad taste in your mouth right now regarding hunting which hopefully will go away in time...I too was saturated with bad experiences but took a different approach and things turned around....did this in all my life experiences from competitive sports to work...key was to not give up....found great people along the way too....believe it or not pickle ball can get wonky too.

good luck competing....win a few...then you will start hearing whispering behind your back....I think it is some peoples nature to do this...sad thing is it is contagious and spreads like a wild fire...but your approach going forward will dictate the outcome.

[shedcrazy]

I think you just got a bad taste in your mouth right now regarding hunting which hopefully will go away in time...

Of course I do but because I actually deal with hunters

exactly....why is it that people with degrees and diplomas etc with relevance to their field they are employed in cant see this?
if this is not stopped and regulated equally right across the board then all the studies, mandatory surveys are only justifying someone's cubicle and salary but not benefiting anything else...sad but true.

You personally insulted my peers thinking they don't know what is going on and that they are or will be doing meaningless things to justify their salary. All the bios I know care about all wildlife (non-game and game animals) and their habitat.

You are using your hate for unregulated hunting to cloud your opinions of others

It's not just one variable out there affecting the future of hunting.

S

[R3illy]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

You are using your hate for unregulated hunting to cloud your opinions of others

It's not just one variable out there affecting the future of hunting.

S

Haha. That's a hard one for people here to wrap their heads around.

Statements like that arent accepted here. You should know that. /sarcasm.

[Ram94]

I don’t think anyone with a head on their shoulders is claiming that unregulated hunting is the only issue. With that said, it is one of the major gaps that needs to be filled before a lot of the other problems can be addressed with any sort of effectiveness.

[Ram94]

.....In my opinion.

[R3illy]

Originally Posted by Ram94

I don’t think anyone with a head on their shoulders is claiming that unregulated hunting is the only issue. With that said, it is one of the major gaps that needs to be filled before a lot of the other problems can be addressed with any sort of effectiveness.

I dont think your reading this thread. It's been said many times treaty sustinence hunters are killing every single big ram.

[Ram94]

Originally Posted by R3illy

I dont think your reading this thread. It's been said many times treaty sustinence hunters are killing every single big ram.

I said, “anyone with a head on their shoulders.”

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Of course I do but because I actually deal with hunters



You personally insulted my peers thinking they don't know what is going on and that they are or will be doing meaningless things to justify their salary. All the bios I know care about all wildlife (non-game and game animals) and their habitat.

You are using your hate for unregulated hunting to cloud your opinions of others

It's not just one variable out there affecting the future of hunting.

S

roger that, many variables in my clouded opinion on hunting that still seems clear to me..yet not to some...oh well this will run its course and there will be more issues that surface along the way.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Ram94

I don’t think anyone with a head on their shoulders is claiming that unregulated hunting is the only issue. With that said, it is one of the major gaps that needs to be filled before a lot of the other problems can be addressed with any sort of effectiveness.

yup....get everyone on the same page and then gather data...if not its kinda like winking at a hot girl in a dark room....you know what your doing but no one else does especially her.

[7magtime]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Knowing the issues and legally being able to do anything about it are 2 different things. It's pretty simple. If Kenny can turn the pipes off in days he could probably fix some of these issues if our new government cared about our natural resources. Time to point the fingers at the people that can actually make change. IMO unregulated hunting is quite low on the list of hunting concerns in private land WMUs anyways.

IMO I think the SM hunting craze is more of an issue and has slowly been killing our sport as well as hunters never being united with each other. Read a few threads here after a long break and it's still the same thing.,,attacking each other. We can't even have big buck nights without hunters fighting with other hunters.

Hunters use to be some of the best conservationists but I don't think that anymore after dealing with them for decades both thru work and recreationally.

Hunting has changed. I love hunting with my kids but after tree stands, trail cameras and blinds get stolen they lost interest in some of the fun of scouting. Awful behaviour of other hunters from diving in areas they don't have permission, finding shot but no effort to recover animals, shooting into areas we are walking from roads, loss of permission due to ass hats (shot livestock, gates open, shooting around cattle, etc) etc all have made my kids less interested in coming out. I already lost one girl, my wife is on the fence now but luckily one daughter still likes it. Their friends at school aren't interested in it like they use to and we live in a rural town. I see way less kids at the check station then I did 10yrs ago. The future isn't great and mostly has to do with other hunters behaviour out there or that it is just less enjoyable now.

We can all do a lot better to make sure there is a future.

S

I completely agree with you Shed that getting our kids and young people interested in hunting will determine it's future. Having stable game populations will determine that future too though.
My concern Is with the harvest increases from the Metis agreement on top of the FN agreements already in place. Why would any young regulated hunter stay interested in hunting if in the future a moose tag is a once in a lifetime tag? Or elk is a 20+ year wait? If harvests in this province can't be monitored for a certain group and we have a fairly large increase in year round harvesting(as of Sept. 1 this year), I believe this is where we will end up especially if predation keeps increasing and we have some tough winters in the future. Farmland not so much but I know of many people that are already saying this in many Crown land WMU's. Numbers are a fraction of what they used to be, and draw wait times have been steadily increasing. This new added unregulated pressure to an already low population in many areas will not be good IMO.....

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by Ram94

I don’t think anyone with a head on their shoulders is claiming that unregulated hunting is the only issue. With that said, it is one of the major gaps that needs to be filled before a lot of the other problems can be addressed with any sort of effectiveness.

IMO it's just one of many variables but not a major gap for the majority of WMU and species in AB. For an example the future of mule deer hunting in AB has nothing to do with unregulated hunting but disease. What about the loss of habitat? Future of spring bear hunting? Baiting bears? Upland birds? WTDE? Waterfowl? Apex predators? Loss of FW funding? Loss of enforcement?

There are so many variables that can affect the future of hunting and yet we seem to be united with funnel vision.

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by 7magtime

Numbers are a fraction of what they used to be, and draw wait times have been steadily increasing. This new added unregulated pressure to an already low population in many areas will not be good IMO.....

We just went thru hunter turnout on the base. RF#1 had 71% turnout (Pr8+ hunt) and RF#4 had 55% (Pr3+ hunt). We had 83 deer hunters on the 3rd day of RF1 show up with a low of 53 deer hunters on the last day of RF#4. 35/50 Elk hunters showed up on a 15 day hunt. Deer numbers are the highest since 2010 winter kill and high elk numbers on/off base.

I think hunters not using draws is a much more of a concern for draw wait times than unregulated hunting on a whole.

S

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

We just went thru hunter turnout on the base. RF#1 had 71% turnout (Pr8+ hunt) and RF#4 had 55% (Pr3+ hunt). We had 83 deer hunters on the 3rd day of RF1 show up with a low of 53 deer hunters on the last day of RF#4. 35/50 Elk hunters showed up on a 15 day hunt. Deer numbers are the highest since 2010 winter kill and high elk numbers on/off base.

I think hunters not using draws is a much more of a concern for draw wait times than unregulated hunting on a whole.

S

These numbers should be a bit of a wake up call. I realize with the base hunt being the very last draw hunt maybe guys are done by then, or have full freezers. The opportunities that are not taken by the draw winners... are opportunities left for no one to claim. It’s a shame they even entered the draw to take the opportunity away from another.

LC

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

IMO it's just one of many variables but not a major gap for the majority of WMU and species in AB. For an example the future of mule deer hunting in AB has nothing to do with unregulated hunting but disease. What about the loss of habitat? Future of spring bear hunting? Baiting bears? Upland birds? WTDE? Waterfowl? Apex predators? Loss of FW funding? Loss of enforcement?

There are so many variables that can affect the future of hunting and yet we seem to be united with funnel vision.

I think your underestimating us here shedcrazy….WMU zones still get targeted by unregulated hunting as those people go onto crown lease land and have a healthy go at the animals there and many do this in the months after the breeding season is over thus potentially taking more than just one animal per kill...this happens all over the province and it affects many WMU's.
I agree that there are many variables that affect hunting but this is one vary large one that if not nipped in the arse things will get worse.
No one is united with funnel vision here as we are all seeing the big picture very clearly.

[shedcrazy]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I think your underestimating us here shedcrazy….WMU zones still get targeted by unregulated hunting as those people go onto crown lease land and have a healthy go at the animals there and many do this in the months after the breeding season is over thus potentially taking more than just one animal per kill...this happens all over the province and it affects many WMU's.
I agree that there are many variables that affect hunting but this is one vary large one that if not nipped in the arse things will get worse.
No one is united with funnel vision here as we are all seeing the big picture very clearly.

I guess I am only basing my person experience with flying numerous aerial surveys for 2 decades in the 200s and 100s. Personally I have only seen decreases in deer populations after big winter kills like 1996, 2010 and 2012 plus cull years in limited cull zones. Moose populations increase with minor dips with tag bumps and more and more spread out elk every year.

I guess I don't have the data like some of the "big picture" here.

Personally as a guy that loves big mule deer I am much more concerned of CWD than unregulated harvest in regards to the future.

S