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Originally Posted by shedcrazy

LOL Ok...some of us will agree!

I agree with most of this (not concinved yet that it is nothing to do with the weapon). Just not sure if this is good or bad. With spotty harvest and population data it could really affect local populations on fringe sps. Due to budget reductions it could be several yrs before an area is surveyed and we all know how little hunter harvest data is colelcted.

Although if you read SRD's background info for this, it's basically a foregone conclusion that moose and mule deer would be placed on draw for archery season as well so it seems F&W is ahead of things on this one. As for other species, I can't see it being a big deal (strictly speaking from a management perspective), other than possibly a few isolated cases (primarily elk in the rut in draw rifle zones open to archery). Without mule deer and moose going on draw in conjunction with the inclusion of crossbows, I agree that there could be some real management issues.

[shedcrazy]

I agree that SRD's idea is to put some of these sps on draw with the addition of crossbow but like several porposals for 2011 it does not actually state that if this option happens this will occur. It is written in the grey area. I know for a fact many people that have read this proposal do not understand the full proposal and don't know what they are agreeing to or not agreeing to.

I wonder if hunter's opinions would change then if crossbows are added to archery seasons at the same time the general archery moose, mule deer and maybe parkland elk seasons are added to the draw?
If some of the "data" online is correct (which I have my doubts) and most crossbow hunters are from the archery world already then why would they push when they would lose the general archery season?

I would imagine that the big push in Alberta is from non-archery hunters that want to take part in the extra opportunities but that exact push would be an end to these opportunities.

I think we should think this one out. Who, what and where are the benefits?

The word greed and not sharing have been mentioned....Do all user groups understand what they will be sharing and or giving up? We need to think longterm and not just short term on this topic.

If some of the "data" online is correct (which I have my doubts) and most crossbow hunters are from the archery world already then why would they push when they would lose the general archery season?

I would imagine that the big push in Alberta is from non-archery hunters that want to take part in the extra opportunities but that exact push would be an end to these opportunities.

I would doubt any data that says most crossbow hunters would be from the archery world already, at least in Alberta where there are liberal gun seasons. That's ceretainly not what I've extrapolated from the research I've done. Certainly there would be a percentage but I doubt it would be a majority.

I agree that the major push is from the current non-archery hunters (and those with business interests) and that crossbow inclusion would be the end of those general opportunities. I'm pretty sure that's what F&W figures too from what I've seen from them.

[shedcrazy]

So what and where is the benefit for Albertan hunters?

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

So what and where is the benefit for Albertan hunters?

That is the million dollar question for sure. You get increased hunter participation and spread it out over a wider time span and possibly a slight increase in hunter numbers but that's doubtful.

You aid game managers where they are not meeting harvest goals...although those are few.

You do increase youth and physically disabled opportunities. Despite what people are saying here, getting a crossbow permit is not as simple as a Doctor's note.

I'm not sure. I look at it a bit more simplistically, do crossbows belong in archery season....period. If they do, then we need to figure out how to manage accordingly. If they don't, then none of the other stuff really matters. I think the fundamental question needs to be answered first. Are the mechanical differences enough to exclude them?

If they are equal, it seems greedy to prevent them from having equal opportunity. If they aren't, then problem solved.......

[wctbowtech]

I don't believe croosbows should be included in the archery season.

Reason #1 If a crossbow hunter shoots a very heavy bolt (graeter than 1000 grains) and uses a drop compensating scope the crossbow becomes way more efficient and therefore should be excluded from the archery only season.

Originally Posted by wctbowtech

I don't believe croosbows should be included in the archery season.

Reason #1 If a crossbow hunter shoots a very heavy bolt (graeter than 1000 grains) and uses a drop compensating scope the crossbow becomes way more efficient and therefore should be excluded from the archery only season.

I'm not sure you could find a 1,000 grain crossbow arrow but even if you could, you be lucky to launch it much over 200fps, if that. You lose about 17-20 fps per 50 grains of arrow weight and it gets worse the heavier it gets. I doubt there's a drop compensating scope that would be effective much past 50 yards with that set up, if that far. A compound bow with a 300-400 grain arrow going +300fps would be far more efficient. The short arrows of a crossbow make them horribly inefficient as does the short draw length of the crossbow.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by wctbowtech

I don't believe croosbows should be included in the archery season.

Reason #1 If a crossbow hunter shoots a very heavy bolt (graeter than 1000 grains) and uses a drop compensating scope the crossbow becomes way more efficient and therefore should be excluded from the archery only season.

Explain please.

[russ]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Although if you read SRD's background info for this, it's basically a foregone conclusion that moose and mule deer would be placed on draw for archery season as well so it seems F&W is ahead of things on this one.

and in my small town that puts at least 3 people back into the draw pool, so it's going to translate into LESS opportunity for everyone.

Originally Posted by russ

and in my small town that puts at least 3 people back into the draw pool, so it's going to translate into LESS opportunity for everyone.

No doubt that there is a small percentage of archers that don't participate in the draws that then would have to. I doubt it's many but you are correct that it will have an impact. I certainly wouldn't oppose crossbow inclusion for that reason only though. That would seem greedy to me.

[blackmamba]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Explain please.

I think he is basically trying to say it s no different than bullet drop compensation on your rifle scope !! Altho x bolts don t come in 1000gr arrows , in which most are in the 5-650 gr range !! So really if you have a scope with the proper compensation for speed and yardage and grains of arrows how is it any different than a than a B/C rifle scope !! I personally feel they should stay in the rifle season !! JMO

BM

Originally Posted by blackmamba

I think he is basically trying to say it s no different than bullet drop compensation on your rifle scope !! Altho x bolts don t come in 1000gr arrows , in which most are in the 5-650 gr range !! So really if you have a scope with the proper compensation for speed and yardage and grains of arrows how is it any different than a than a B/C rifle scope !! I personally feel they should stay in the rifle season !! JMO

BM

Don't most compound bows have drop compensating sights that would be good to 50 yards? You'd be hard pressed to find a drop compensating scope for a crossbow that would give you more range than that. That's the major difference between it and a BDC scope on a rifle that I can see. Magnification at sub 100 yards really isn't a huge advantage in a hunting situation.

[blackmamba]

Of course they do sheep ,but floating a pin at fity or sixty yards in alot different than looking through a 6X scope with crosshairs !!

Originally Posted by blackmamba

Of course they do sheep ,but floating a pin at fity or sixty yards in alot different than looking through a 6X scope with crosshairs !!

Not sub 100 and more likely sub 50 yards in a hunting situation it really isn't. Where magnification becomes critical is at longer ranges like those shot at with rifles or when trying to hit very small targets. Neither of which is the case with a crossbow in a hunting situation. The primary reason for scopes on crossbows is that they align well with the eye while offering multiple aim points. Most have at max 4x magnification and truthfully, 0x would make little difference.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by blackmamba

I think he is basically trying to say it s no different than bullet drop compensation on your rifle scope !! Altho x bolts don t come in 1000gr arrows , in which most are in the 5-650 gr range !! So really if you have a scope with the proper compensation for speed and yardage and grains of arrows how is it any different than a than a B/C rifle scope !! I personally feel they should stay in the rifle season !! JMO

BM

Optics are optional to both compound bows and crossbows. Just because you have a crossbow does not mean it comes equipped with a scope. In fact it comes equipped very similar to a compound bow with a site and pins. A scope is only optional, just as a scope is optional with a compound bow. Yes, for those of you unaware, you can mount a scope on a compound bow. I guess maybe we should outlaw that too!

[blackmamba]

so sheep if its not that much different are you telling me that you can consistantly hit an apple say at 50 or60 yards with your bow in an IBO condition ??

Originally Posted by blackmamba

so sheep if its not that much different are you telling me that you can consistantly hit an apple say at 50 or60 yards with your bow in an IBO condition ??

LOL...nope, not with my compound, recurve or crossbow.

I'm a 40 yard shooter at best with both crossbow and compound and pretty well equally proficient at both, although I do admit to shooting the compound much more.

[blackmamba]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Optics are optional to both compound bows and crossbows. Just because you have a crossbow does not mean it comes equipped with a scope. In fact it comes equipped very similar to a compound bow with a site and pins. A scope is only optional, just as a scope is optional with a compound bow. Yes, for those of you unaware, you can mount a scope on a compound bow. I guess maybe we should outlaw that too!

I am very aware of scope mounting capabilties on a compound and you can even put a clarifier in the peep if need be !! but let me ask you this , have you ever used a scope on ur bow for hunting ???? probably not !!! 90% of scope users are for target or indoor shooting !! oh thats right it because you have time to adjust for yardage in those cituation !! In a hunting cituation 8 out of 10 time you dont !!

[blackmamba]

[QUOTE=sheephunter;564807]LOL...nope, not with my compound, recurve or crossbow.

I'm a 40 yard shooter at best with both crossbow and compound and pretty well equally proficient at both, although I do admit to shooting the compound much more.[/QUOTE

Have you ever shot with a scope on you bow ??

Originally Posted by blackmamba

Have you ever shot a scope on you bow ??

Nope, not on my compound, from what I understand they are better suited to indoor competition use than to hunting use. I find the pins work just fine for me. I'm strictly a hunter with my bow... I have on my crossbow though.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by blackmamba

I am very aware of scope mounting capabilties on a compound and you can even put a clarifier in the peep if need be !! but let me ask you this , have you ever used a scope on ur bow for hunting ????

No I haven't BM, but the option is there, just as it is on a crossbow. It's called technology, and it is advancing.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Nope, not on my compound, from what I understand they are better suited to indoor competition use than to hunting use.

Again, technology is changing and scopes for compounds are catching up and in a hurry.

[shedcrazy]

Those benefits are pretty weak..

You get increased hunter participation and spread it out over a wider time span and possibly a slight increase in hunter numbers but that's doubtful.

With only WTDE on an archery general season and the rest on draw I doubt it. You might actually see a decrease but by the time the numbers are in the general archery seasons will be lost.

If they are equal, it seems greedy to prevent them from having equal opportunity

One of the interesting studies I read (please don't ask me where) basically concluded that there is a spike in crossbow users initially but as people typically only have a certain number of days to hunt in year, they found out that crossbow hunting, like vertical bow hunting requires a lot of time and dedication for little results so they went back to weapons with higher success rates and used their limited hunting days in those seasons. These were users that previously weren't archers

So one group is giving up a lot (losing their general seasons for mule deer, moose and maybe elk) to a weapon that can already hunt throughout the province in rifle and primitive weapon seasons and studies show new crossbow hunters will give it up? Not sure who the greedy group is...

The key is to not think short term but long term.

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Again, technology is changing and scopes for compounds are catching up and in a hurry.

You sure could be right. For my meagre 40 yard shooting, all I really need are pins. For guys shooting compounds at extended ranges, I can see how it might be a benefit.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Again, technology is changing and scopes for compounds are catching up and in a hurry.

I think the practicalitey of scopes on hunting bows is almost non existant. Most guys like BM said don't have the movement capabilities to dial in there scopes, draw back and shoot, throw in a half turn for body adjustment...whitie gone!
That's why most bow hunters still use pins.

If he's not gone he deserves to be removed from the gene pool.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Not sure who the greedy group is...

Well shed, I'll let my 14-year-old know you think he's greedy.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Those benefits are pretty weak..

But then again I wasn't making an arguement for crossbows.

Some of the proponents may have much more to offer up. I still say it comes down to equal access. If they are equal, they deserve access. If they aren't, they don't. Pretty cut and dried in my mind. Compound bows were never kept out of archery season despite the fact they take tons of opportunity away from traditional users. I guess that must be because they are equal The question still begs asking, are crossbows?

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I think the practicalitey of scopes on hunting bows is almost non existant. Most guys like BM said don't have the movement capabilities to dial in there scopes, draw back and shoot, throw in a half turn for body adjustment...whitie gone!
That's why most bow hunters still use pins.

If he's not gone he deserves to be removed from the gene pool.

Sorry Potty, you ain't going to stop technology. The traditional guys couldn't.

[blackmamba]

Seee thats the biggest issue 95 % percent of bowhunters use pins for hunting and having a scope on your bow is absolutely useless unless sittin in a tree stand at a set yardage !! which brings me to the point that these guys have no use for scope on a bow and I would be willing to bet that not ever bowhunter sits in a tree stand !!

So I guess if its an option all your guns are open sights right !! Probably not , and y is that cause the amount of human error is too significant !!

Originally Posted by blackmamba

Seee thats the biggest issue 95 % percent of bowhunters use pins for hunting and having a scope on your bow is absolutely useless unless sittin in a tree stand at a set yardage !! which brings me to the point that these guys have no use for scope on a bow and I would be willing to bet that not ever bowhunter sits in a tree stand !!

So I guess if its an option all your guns are open sights right !! Probably not , and y is that cause the amount of human error is too significant !!

You really aren't listening are you. Guns have scopes because they can shoot at extended ranges where magnification becomes important. I can shoot 1.5-2 inch groups all day long with open sights at 100 yards. Where magnification becomes critical in a hunting situation is beyond that. As we are talking sub 50 yards for the most part here, magnification offers up negligible advantage in a hunting situation.

And yes, I have numerous guns with open sights that I'm very comfortable shooting at an animal 100 yards or less away.