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  #31  
Old 06-04-2015, 04:16 PM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
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Originally Posted by Diamondhitch View Post
The thing to remember about Wilmore is that the sheep are there in low density at the best of times but as you get deeper in towards the SW corner the sparser they get. The mountains get extremely rugged and it becomes more goat country than sheep. Plus add the fact that 60% of it is valleys and 30% is barren rock that are seldom used by sheep and the square km drops quite quickly.
how many ewes could we expect to see in 24,000 acres? sort of like an average of the whole place?
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  #32  
Old 06-04-2015, 04:22 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Non trophy sheep hunting should have been shut down along time ago.
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  #33  
Old 06-04-2015, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Diamondhitch View Post
Habitat in the Wilmore has remained constant since it is not subject to development. When I started hunting there only 7-15 non-trophy sheep tags were sold, leaving the majority unclaimed, of those who drew I talked to many who carried the tag as I did with the intent that if I saw a ewe on the last day or on the way out it would be shot but cutting a ram hunt short because of a dead ewe was not an option, thus few of the drawn tags were used back then so ewes effectively had no significant human predation. Now all tags are sold and the hunters I am seeing are targeting ewes specifically more and more.

I don't believe the numbers of ewes being harvested are realistic to what our goals should be - maximum sustainable numbers of sheep. The one and only change I have really seen there is the number of females being harvested.

I wont speak for the rest of the province since I have not hunted the majority of it.

The habitat in the Willmore certainly has Not remained constant as you have already contradicted yourself in a newer post. It is experiencing the same issue with forest encroachment as all the other SMAs.

This means the Willmore is Not able to sustain the same numbers of sheep than it previously could.


Willmore has always had very low ewe harvest rates and still does. Hunters are just not filling those tags no matter how many are issued..... Can you tell us how many ewes have been harvested here? If not, then how can you say it is too many to be sustainable?

Extensive research into ewe/lamb harvest has been done in several jurisdictions including Alberta. It is recognized that under average recruitment rates that 18% of the ewe/lamb population can be killed before effecting a population reduction. Alberta at its peak ewe harvest was managing for a 10% harvest rate. When we were harvesting 10% of the ewes we were also killing twice as many rams from a lower population than we have today, and the population still increased yearly.
Montana, which many claim to be superior for big ram production, is currently achieving a 10% ewe harvest rate. They know that this is important to produce healthy sheep and big rams.
FYI, We are currently at about a 3% harvest rate. This harvest rate is much too low to effect recruitment or population density.

Do you really think that harvesting 3% of the ewes each year in areas showing stable populations is causing a problem?
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  #34  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:21 PM
Diamondhitch Diamondhitch is offline
 
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All I know is I am seeing fewer sheep of either sex in recent years and more hunters. Those are the only facts that I can verify.
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  #35  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:39 PM
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Default Solution to carrying capacity concerns. PRESCRIBED FIRE



This is a map indicating the APPROVED prescribed fires in SMA 4.

Just imagine the potential if these relatively small areas were burnt for wildlife habitat and brought back to the previous land capabilities.

Complete these burns and carrying capacity/ewe harvest would be the last thing we would need to argue back and forth about.

My first question is why have these approved burns not been completed?

How many years does it take to light a prescribed fire?

Parks Canada doesn't fool around, my hats off to them for their forest management and prescribed fire success. Check out their website, they can't light those fires fast enough yet the AEP (Formerly ESRD) can't seem to light anything of significance. 50 ha there and 50 ha here, its peanuts....

If its a matter of costs and no funding, why couldn't we open these projects up to the private sector? Surely the private section could do it for a fraction of the costs that our government could.
What does it cost for a prescribed fire anyways?
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  #36  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Diamondhitch View Post
All I know is I am seeing fewer sheep of either sex in recent years and more hunters. Those are the only facts that I can verify.
Which could be attributed to habitat degradation, but not on current ewe harvest rates.
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  #37  
Old 06-04-2015, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Diamondhitch View Post
All I know is I am seeing fewer sheep of either sex in recent years and more hunters. Those are the only facts that I can verify.
It also can be attributed to weather, predation pressure moving animals, hunting pressure and numerous other factors.
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  #38  
Old 06-04-2015, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Keeleclimber View Post

My first question is why have these approved burns not been completed?
Maybe cause sheep and goats rely on those trees?


Here is the document I was going to email you.

http://wildfire.alberta.ca/prescribe...-March2008.pdf
Kananaskis Country Vegetation Management Strategy 2008


Notice the almost complete lack of wildlife habitat enhancement and management areas despite acknowledgement of forest encroachment and overly mature forest composition....



I would like further explanation for these recommendations.

pg 27.
"Areas not recommended for vegetation management included bighorn sheep and mountain goat ranges where cover loss would negatively impact habitat values."

pg. 28. No habitat management other than for Grizzly bear conflict management.
Sheep and goat habitat being managed FOR TREE COVER.

Evan Thomas Cr., Kent Ridge - Vegetation Mgt. Not Recommended
Reasoning, Mtn. goat/bighorn sheep cover loss.
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  #39  
Old 06-04-2015, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by smith88 View Post
It also can be attributed to weather, predation pressure moving animals, hunting pressure and numerous other factors.
Or we can't see the sheep for all the trees.

Hey Pottymouth?
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  #40  
Old 06-04-2015, 06:20 PM
Diamondhitch Diamondhitch is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
Maybe cause sheep and goats rely on those trees?


Here is the document I was going to email you.

http://wildfire.alberta.ca/prescribe...-March2008.pdf
Kananaskis Country Vegetation Management Strategy 2008


Notice the almost complete lack of wildlife habitat enhancement and management areas despite acknowledgement of forest encroachment and overly mature forest composition....



I would like further explanation for these recommendations.

pg 27.
"Areas not recommended for vegetation management included bighorn sheep and mountain goat ranges where cover loss would negatively impact habitat values."

pg. 28. No habitat management other than for Grizzly bear conflict management.
Sheep and goat habitat being managed FOR TREE COVER.

Evan Thomas Cr., Kent Ridge - Vegetation Mgt. Not Recommended
Reasoning, Mtn. goat/bighorn sheep cover loss.
Decoded: If any fires get out of control they will burn marketable timber and Logging $$$ trump wildlife every time. Fancy excuses to mask true intent.
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  #41  
Old 06-04-2015, 08:16 PM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
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I don't know if I'll see those burns happening in my lifetime.

Does anyone actually know typical population densities even of its like 20 sheep per mountain or something?
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  #42  
Old 06-05-2015, 08:15 AM
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Default Time for us to demand aggressive Prescribed Burns in the sheep range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o View Post
I don't know if I'll see those burns happening in my lifetime.
Thats a poor attitude^

Write your MLA.
Write your stakeholder groups (SCI, WSFA, RMEF,AFGA etc.), provided you're a member of course...

Talk to the local Indian band members, surely they have the right to manage their land and wildlife habitat properly.

Make something happen!

As hunters and conservationists if we continue to roll over and let this incompetent wildlife management continue our sheep will be gone with the mountain elk.
Think I'm exaggerating? Then review the posted (AEP Website) harvest data and tell me why 11/32 WMUs experienced ZERO harvests? 7/32 WMUs harvested 3 rams or less! That means 56% of our sheep hunting zones have pitiful sheep hunting success, is it because we as sheep hunters are clueless or is it because the rams just aren't there anymore...?
I challenge every sheep hunter on here to spend time in any one of these zones a see for your self. What you will see is "oceans" of old growth forest choking out the sheep habitat that needs to be burnt. So that's why every conservationist in Alberta needs to demand aggressive prescribed burns immediately for the sake of the sheep and for the future of our hunting privileges. Cause guess what, as soon as these Biologists share some accurate and realistic survey data, and they stop lying about how "our sheep populations have been stable for 30 years". There's going to be pain in the hunting opportunity department and sheep will be on draw faster than you can say "Compassionate Hunting Model"
Rant over.
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  #43  
Old 06-05-2015, 08:18 AM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeleclimber View Post
Thats a poor attitude^

Write your MLA.
Write your stakeholder groups (SCI, WSFA, RMEF,AFGA etc.), provided you're a member of course...

Talk to the local Indian band members, surely they have the right to manage their land and wildlife habitat properly.

Make something happen!

As hunters and conservationists if we continue to roll over and let this incompetent wildlife management continue our sheep will be gone with the mountain elk.
Think I'm exaggerating? Then review the posted (AEP Website) harvest data and tell me why 11/32 WMUs experienced ZERO harvests? 7/32 WMUs harvested 3 rams or less! That means 56% of our sheep hunting zones have pitiful sheep hunting success, is it because we as sheep hunters are clueless or is it because the rams just aren't there anymore...?
I challenge every sheep hunter on here to spend time in any one of these zones a see for your self. What you will see is "oceans" of old growth forest choking out the sheep habitat that needs to be burnt. So that's why every conservationist in Alberta needs to demand aggressive prescribed burns immediately for the sake of the sheep and for the future of our hunting privileges. Cause guess what, as soon as these Biologists share some accurate and realistic survey data, and they stop lying about how "our sheep populations have been stable for 30 years". There's going to be pain in the hunting opportunity department and sheep will be on draw faster than you can say "Compassionate Hunting Model"
Rant over.
lol it is a poor attitude and i guess it might happen in my lifetime but not by the governments hand.

it will probably be hunters or conservationists that have taken up smoking
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  #44  
Old 06-05-2015, 08:20 AM
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Anyone know if the current fires are hitting any of the sheep areas? This year would be our best chance at some natural burns with how dry it is.
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  #45  
Old 06-05-2015, 08:47 AM
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Default Your not going to believe this...

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Originally Posted by Roughneck Country View Post
Anyone know if the current fires are hitting any of the sheep areas? This year would be our best chance at some natural burns with how dry it is.
I just called and spoke with the "Wildfire Prevention Officer" in Rocky.

To date they have burnt 95ha on the Clearwater and 38ha on the Hummingbird.
The approved burn area were respectively 470ha on the Clearwater and 558ha on the Hummingbird.

It was mentioned this spring has been the "best in years" for ideal prescribed fire conditions being very dry in the west country.

All Prescribed Burns have been halted due to resources being used elsewhere to extinguish wildfires.

In the Clearwater Area (R11 Prescribed Fire Area), Recently in 2 days, 13 natural occurring wildfires were extinguished.

So let me get this straight, they are spending money to put out naturally occurring fires in R11 which is draining our budget to complete the approved prescribed fires.
Am I that only one that thinks this is ludicrous!??

I think we should get rid of our "Wildfire Prevention Officers" and employ some "Wildfire/Habitat Specialists"
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  #46  
Old 06-05-2015, 02:34 PM
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Default Correction

I support suppressing fires that threaten communities and industry.

I'm pressuring for Prescribed Burns in the already approved areas which are far away from communities and industry.

38ha out of 558ha in the Hummingbird under these perfect conditions seems grossly unacceptable. How would this performance be received in the private sector?

I apologize for hijacking the OP.
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  #47  
Old 06-06-2015, 06:50 PM
Diamondhitch Diamondhitch is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeleclimber View Post
...I apologize for hijacking the OP.
Lol we are so far off base we cant even see the field anymore.
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  #48  
Old 06-15-2015, 08:54 PM
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so general opinion is that conservation minded hunters should not be harvesting non-trophy sheep? how would you identify a >9 year old ewe that would be ready for harvest? I try to do what is best but I would also love to get my feet wet in sheep hunting by harvesting a non-trophy sheep.
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  #49  
Old 06-16-2015, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by The Flint&Fly Guy View Post
so general opinion is that conservation minded hunters should not be harvesting non-trophy sheep? how would you identify a >9 year old ewe that would be ready for harvest? I try to do what is best but I would also love to get my feet wet in sheep hunting by harvesting a non-trophy sheep.
thread has gone so far off track you might be better off starting a new one. sorry to be a negative nancy but I started this one hoping for the best and it went south fast.
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  #50  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:59 PM
Moults Moults is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeleclimber View Post
I just called and spoke with the "Wildfire Prevention Officer" in Rocky.

To date they have burnt 95ha on the Clearwater and 38ha on the Hummingbird.
The approved burn area were respectively 470ha on the Clearwater and 558ha on the Hummingbird.

It was mentioned this spring has been the "best in years" for ideal prescribed fire conditions being very dry in the west country.

All Prescribed Burns have been halted due to resources being used elsewhere to extinguish wildfires.

In the Clearwater Area (R11 Prescribed Fire Area), Recently in 2 days, 13 natural occurring wildfires were extinguished.

So let me get this straight, they are spending money to put out naturally occurring fires in R11 which is draining our budget to complete the approved prescribed fires.
Am I that only one that thinks this is ludicrous!??

I think we should get rid of our "Wildfire Prevention Officers" and employ some "Wildfire/Habitat Specialists"
I know this post I super old but I’m just reading it now. I used to be a wildland firefighter in the Clearwater area. I was involved in both fire suppression and prescribed burning. I assure you that getting these burns done safely is a lot harder than it sounds. There’s a very narrow window of conditions in which the match can be lit without either an incomplete/ineffective burn or having it get away on us and creating a major problem.

I can also assure you that the SRD folks are eager to get these burns done. It’s well known that they need to happen.
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  #51  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moults View Post
I know this post I super old but I’m just reading it now. I used to be a wildland firefighter in the Clearwater area. I was involved in both fire suppression and prescribed burning. I assure you that getting these burns done safely is a lot harder than it sounds. There’s a very narrow window of conditions in which the match can be lit without either an incomplete/ineffective burn or having it get away on us and creating a major problem.

I can also assure you that the SRD folks are eager to get these burns done/ It’s well known that they need to happen.

I can assure you that SRD's left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing when it comes to their wildfire policy. It causes problems when burns for wildlife/lands is at stake.

Check out this old thread.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...=willmore+fire

What happened here is Fire Suppression began an attack to put out this wildfire without knowing that this area of the Park is under a Wildfire management plan. Wildfires are to be allowed to burn.

When I raised the alarm in an attempt to have Fire suppression retreat, they howled like a beat hound. They just couldn't understand that they had to leave this fire to burn. Fortunately others in SRD carried a big stick.... Happy days in the end, we got Alberta Wildfire to back off and a Great burn.

If your not too busy, get in touch with WSFAB, they could use your experience.
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