Minimum Wage Revelations

[raab]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

Most minimum wage folks do not get free transportation to work or subsidized housing as a perk they have to pay for those necessities. A real perk would be to pay you your full worth and let you decide how you spent it without interference.

No most minimum wage workers dont get free transportation or subsidized housing. Where I worked in the mountains, I was far better off taking that deal then making 20 dollars an hour. My rent would have quadrupled and travel expenses would have been substantially higher if I had to move into town. In saying that there's no reason a minimum wage employee living in town can't find housing close to their work and walk or bike. This would make their transportation costs effectively nothing. If they got creative with their housing and rented a room or shared a 2 bedroom apartment with someone. There's no reason they couldnt get their housing cost down around the 500 dollar per month mark. Which is a not much more then what I was paying for my subsidized housing. There's also nothing stopping a minimum wage worker from negotiating a transit pass as part of their compensation passage.

No one said anything about buying a house but the rental costs are passed onto the renter so they feel the wrath too. Sure you could live it up in a slum with no windows or what have you but do we want to be that kind of society? Lower income families should feel safe in their own homes and be able to eat too. Modest living of course.


I dont think you understand how the rental market works. The only reason rental prices are tied to house prices is demand. Usually when you see high house prices it's because there's an influx of people coming into that area wanting to buy homes. This usually means there's an influx of people needing to rent homes as well. So rental prices increase with housing prices. What are we seeing now in Alberta? People who bought houses with strong demand trying to rent them out at a loss. Rental rates across most of the province have come down. With many place offering incentives to move.

Now with the 15 dollar minimum wage, people who used to rent a bedroom will now be looking for bachelor, or 1 bedroom apartment or basement suite. Thereby increasing the demand for these units. As a result I expect we'll see rent go up across the province for these types of units, and if they go up for those units. All the other units will go up as well. Meaning this will hit those lower income families the hardest, as they are at the mercy of the market.

Government leant me money to go to school so yes I guess they did assist me but I had to pay it back. I only had to deal with my own issues and my parents gave me free room and board over the summers. Some folks don’t have that even. You bet I worked hard to get where I am but in no way do I think I did it on my own. I had moral, financial and just plain giving from many people that helped me as I went.

As I said I wont get into the education debate. It's not pertinent to the minimum wage debate IMO. The only possible exception to that is the argument that a higher minimum wage decreases an individual's motivation to improve to secure a better income.

I think we fail to forget that just cause minimum wage increases that doesn’t mean everyone who’s a slacker just gets that money. A person still has to show up, work hard and do a decent job. If the boss decides to keep a bum that’s on them and no one else.

The no government interference conversation always is great. I talk to many people from places that had little interference from government and none of them are trying to get back there. They enjoy the safety and security they have here and other developed nations with stable governments but also the opportunities that they have for work that isn’t slave labour essentially.

Slave labour, now thats funny. No one is forcing anyone in this country to work for minimum wage. All Im am saying is let business and the worker decide what they should be paid. Do you think Walmart would cut their wages to a dollar an hour if minimum wage was abolished? Do you think anyone would work for them? As for your conversations with people from other countries. Id be interested to know what countries they're from. As many of the immigrants we have received come from socialist countries or countries with totalitarian leadership.

See comments above

[raab]

Originally Posted by Badgerbadger

I gotta give you credit for the misrepresentation of the day! Wow, that was some stunning mental gymnastics! Oppressive feudalism, and self serving monarchies aren't really that intrusive forms of government, just so long as you pay your taxes, don't diss the rulers, and show up to be cannon fodder when the king desires. Everyone has the freedom to die in the streets!

This is exactly my point though. The systems these people ran from were almost always totalitarian and had a manipulated market as a result.

That's exactly backwards. Increased minimum wage gives more power to the wage earner, as they have more options available as they have more money. They don't have to choose between food or heat. They can have BOTH!

This is wrong. An increased minimum wage hurts the lower class as it reduces the jobs created. There by limiting the lower class earners opportunities to improve and move up to better paying jobs. For example with a 15 dollar minimum wage a construction company can hire two apprentices to help on a project. But if there was no minimum wage and no minimum needing to be paid for apprentices. A construction company could hire 3 apprentices making 10 dollars an hour, or they could hire 6 making 5 dollars an hour. This gives far more opportunity to unskilled workers to learn skills and earn a better wage. As a bonus we consumers could get things built faster and cheaper. It's a win-win for everyone.

I'm surprised you'd advocate for a guaranteed basic income or negative income tax, as you phrase it (and progressive income taxation in general), as that's a government handout for doing nothing. I, too, think a minimum basic income is a good idea, as it allows people to develop areas that may not be very financially rewarding at the outset.

A negative income tax means that your never losing money for being productive. I have no problem providing the basic living allowance to those in society who truly need it.(Like the disabled) My problem is with the system that gives more to those who dont work, then those who do. I was talking with my wife today for example. She told me I should quit my 70k a year job and stay home with the kids. We would get more for our child benefits, we would qualify for rent subsidy, and our lives would be much simpler and less stressful. A country can't last long in a situation like I just described. It's getting to the point where its not even worth it to be productive, even with a good paying job. Right now Im not sure why Im busting my ass, when a teenage burger flipper will be taking home roughly 12k less then me in after tax income. Im sure, Im not the only person in Alberta wondering the same thing.

See comments above

[Coho911]

That 'Tip-Out' video clip is a bit of bull. I used to work in Kitchens for years and there would be 6-7 of us in there making MINIMUM wage the same as the servers. There were 4 servers and 1 bartender.

The Floor staff (servers and bartender) would give 10% of their tips to the 'kitchen'. People forget that the servers averaged 15% of the bill sales in tips. so 1.0% of the TOTAL sales came to 6-7 people in the kitchen making the same wage.

I remember the servers laughing when they would hear we worked for 8 hours and made $72 and they would work 4-6 on dinner and walk out with $200-500 in tips. They used to even joke that the hourly wage was nothing and they worked for tips because they got so much. My share of WEEKLY tips was about $75-100. While a waitress at the same time would walk with $900-1500 in TIPS alone.

I have no sympathy for servers because I have been there for years while working for school and career.

Australia's system is coming here quick. 'Living wage' = no more tips as they are paid for the job. Tips are frowned upon down there.

[expedition]

This talk of eliminating min wage is to participate in a race to the bottom! We need to keep our eye on the problem . The problem is the slow elimination of middle class . We need to tax the super wealthy into the middle class . And work on lowering the number of people in poverty! No one should have more than 100 million and no one should live in poverty!

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by expedition

We need to tax the super wealthy into the middle class . And work on lowering the number of people in poverty! No one should have more than 100 million and no one should live in poverty!

This might be one of the most misguided comments I have ever read.

[coreya3212]

Originally Posted by Trochu

This might be one of the most misguided comments I have ever read.

Yes sir

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Trochu

This might be one of the most misguided comments I have ever read.

+1 When you take away the incentive to invest, and to take financial risks through taxation, the investments will cease, and the economy will suffer.

[260 Rem]

I find it interesting that there is never a shortage of folks dicussing the wages of others while never mentioning their own. Seems to me there are always some ready to maintain their (perceived) “status” ...not by bettering their own lot...but trying to stay ahead by keeping others down.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I find it interesting that there is never a shortage of folks dicussing the wages of others while never mentioning their own. Seems to me there are always some ready to maintain their (perceived) “status” ...not by bettering their own lot...but trying to stay ahead by keeping others down.

And there are just as many people that are jealous that someone else makes more than they do, and feel that the people that make more than they do, should be taxed to the point that they don't get to keep any more than they are allowed to keep.

[Albertacoyotecaller]

No problem. First the minimum wage worker is gone and next the manager. I will not be looking at a kiosk trying to place an order.

[Albertacoyotecaller]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

I find it interesting that there is never a shortage of folks dicussing the wages of others while never mentioning their own. Seems to me there are always some ready to maintain their (perceived) “status” ...not by bettering their own lot...but trying to stay ahead by keeping others down.

And your T4 said what last year?

[expedition]

Originally Posted by Trochu

This might be one of the most misguided comments I have ever read.

Misguided how . Fact 1% of the population holds 99% of the wealth and the disparagy is growing . The biggest increase in the middle class happened when governments heavily taxed the wealthy in the late 40 or early fiftys. A trick of the wealthy is to play on the one thing middle and wealthy people have in common . That would be our biggest expence. Taxation. I feel as though 99 % of the wealth should pay 99% of the tax. Currently the top 10 % do pay low 30 s of all taxation revenue.
Do you have numbers . I would be interested to hear them .

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by expedition

This talk of eliminating min wage is to participate in a race to the bottom! We need to keep our eye on the problem . The problem is the slow elimination of middle class . We need to tax the super wealthy into the middle class . And work on lowering the number of people in poverty! No one should have more than 100 million and no one should live in poverty!

Where is the level for "super wealthy"?
Making everyone equal by taxing the super wealthy into "the middle class " almost sounds like communism. .
Not that II am going too buy anything from a kiosk anytime soon, but I can only assume most of us do a great amount of online shopping now and that also killed many store owners.
Cat

[expedition]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And there are just as many people that are jealous that someone else makes more than they do, and feel that the people that make more than they do, should be taxed to the point that they don't get to keep any more than they are allowed to keep.

I think the middle and lower income class do pay to much (less than 200 000). But when you look at jeff bezos or is it boso is worth 155 billilon and a large portion of his amazon staff qualify for food stamps. You have to realise the top 1% have manipulated the system to the point where if you dont like my min wage you can get min wage elsewhere. 260 rem has a point.

[expedition]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Where is the level for "super wealthy"?
Making everyone equal by taxing the super wealthy into "the middle class " almost sounds like communism. .
Not that II am going too buy anything from a kiosk anytime soon, but I can only assume most of us do a great amount of online shopping now and that also killed many store owners.
Cat

Both communist socialism and pure capitalism are failures . Keep in mind more than 100 million total wealth in my opinion should be heavily taxed.

[raab]

Originally Posted by expedition

Both communist socialism and pure capitalism are failures . Keep in mind more than 100 million total wealth in my opinion should be heavily taxed.

Please show me your examples of failed pure capitalism. There's nothing wrong with laissez faire capitalism. It's the best system for raising people out of poverty. The problem comes from government getting involved and bringing in protectionist measures for big business like a minimum wage. This is called corporatism and it's what we currently have in Alberta.

[expedition]

Cat i did not say make every one equal . I feel poverty is on the rise . Think of the interest you could earn on 100 million . Easy retirement. A person hits 100 million time to retire and let someone else have a chance. 155 billion on the backs of poverty wages is criminal.

[expedition]

Originally Posted by raab

Please show me your examples of failed pure capitalism. There's nothing wrong with laissez faire capitalism. It's the best system for raising people out of poverty. The problem comes from government getting involved and bringing in protectionist measures for big business like a minimum wage.

Hello its retardistan US for short. Thr richest nation in the world and 30 in the world for healthcare. Because capitalism wont allow it .

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by expedition

I think the middle and lower income class do pay to much (less than 200 000). But when you look at jeff bezos or is it boso is worth 155 billilon and a large portion of his amazon staff qualify for food stamps. You have to realise the top 1% have manipulated the system to the point where if you dont like my min wage you can get min wage elsewhere. 260 rem has a point.

So if Amazon was to cease to exist, how many workers would be unemployed? Would it benefit or hurt the economy for these workers to lose their jobs? Whether or not you like the fact that the people at the top make that much, they provide many, many jobs that would not exist without them.

[expedition]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So if Amazon was to cease to exist, how many workers would be unemployed? Would it benefit or hurt the economy for these workers to lose their jobs? Whether or not you like the fact that the people at the top make that much, they provide many, many jobs that would not exist without them.

Just so you know justin said its not legal till october.

Amazon has eliminated way more jobs that it created.
I did not say jeff the boso should not be rich . But there is no doubt he could double his employees wages and he d still be a Billionaire . Thats a 1000 million.

[raab]

Originally Posted by expedition

Hello its retardistan US for short. Thr richest nation in the world and 30 in the world for healthcare. Because capitalism wont allow it .

I think you should look at where the US ranks on economic freedom. They to are a corporatist society. If you want an example closer to true capitalism look at Hong Kong under British rule.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by expedition

Just so you know justin said its not legal till october.

Amazon has eliminated way more jobs that it created.
I did not say jeff the boso should not be rich . But there is no doubt he could double his employees wages and he d still be a Billionaire . Thats a 1000 million.

Then perhaps you should stop using it until it's legal?

[expedition]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Then perhaps you should stop using it until it's legal?

Way to troll . Lol

[expedition]

Sorry i know nothing of hong kong.
Care to elaborate . Thanks

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by expedition

This talk of eliminating min wage is to participate in a race to the bottom! We need to keep our eye on the problem . The problem is the slow elimination of middle class . We need to tax the super wealthy into the middle class . And work on lowering the number of people in poverty! No one should have more than 100 million and no one should live in poverty!

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

[raab]

Originally Posted by expedition

Just so you know justin said its not legal till october.

Amazon has eliminated way more jobs that it created.
I did not say jeff the boso should not be rich . But there is no doubt he could double his employees wages and he d still be a Billionaire . Thats a 1000 million.

Well if it's easy money. Why don't you start up a company to compete with Amazon? And steal some of his workers promising to pay them a couple bucks more. What do you think Bezos will have to do to his employees wages when he starts losing them to competition? The fact is Amazon has little competition for online retail right now. That's changing quickly though and Bezos will have to adapt or watch his beloved company shrink.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by expedition

Way to troll . Lol

I didn't bring it up, you did, so if you want to make accusations, look into a mirror.

[Big Thumper]

Originally Posted by expedition

Cat i did not say make every one equal . I feel poverty is on the rise . Think of the interest you could earn on 100 million . Easy retirement. A person hits 100 million time to retire and let someone else have a chance. 155 billion on the backs of poverty wages is criminal.

So, retire the most productive workers that tend to hire everybody else? Leave the economy to the less productive people?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by raab

Well if it's easy money. Why don't you start up a company to compete with Amazon? And steal some of his workers promising to pay them a couple bucks more. What do you think Bezos will have to do to his employees wages when he starts losing them to competition? The fact is Amazon has little competition for online retail right now. That's changing quickly though and Bezos will have to adapt or watch his beloved company shrink.

Exactly! But that would involve a great deal of work, and a great deal of financial risk, and most people are not willing to attempt such an ambitious task. They would rather complain about what someone else has accomplished that they are jealous of.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by expedition

Misguided how.

Off the cuff:

-If you were going to tax Bezos, Gates, Buffet, etc., $143B, $92B, $80B, do you think they'd be okay with that and stick around, or maybe, just maybe, they'd move to Canada, Britain, etc. Does it help the county, the economy, the working class if these guys move and set up shop elsewhere?

-Some of these guys come from essentially nothing. Bezos mom was 17 when he was born and he worked at McDonald. Would these company's exist if there was no financial incentive there? Do you expect them to work for free? Is essentially forcing the brightest and best into retirement by refusing to pay them good for the country, the economy, the working class?

-You seem to be concerned about the slow disappearance/shrinkage of the middle class? Is a logical solution to increasing one class the forced disappearance of another?

-If my able, in body and mind, 26 year old neighbor decides he doesn't want to work, why shouldn't he live in poverty? Should I work twice as hard or deny my family some benefits so he can maintain his current lifestyle?

-Why should the guy/gal who took a major risk, laid it all, and then some, on the line financially, worked 10 hours a day for years, had their spouse leave them cause they were working too much, be capped financially? Who are you to tell someone else $101M is too much? Given governments stellar financial track record, who's to say in a decade it's not "$80M is too much", then $50M, then $10M, then $100k?

-In general, just reeks of communism.