Lets summarize the ballistics discussions of late then...

[Stinky Coyote]

All things being equal…same amount of powder burned, diam. of projectile, construction, medium etc. but two different bullet weights (read; two different s.d.’s)…the heavier goes deeper. Why? Really the added offset of the higher velocity of the lighter projectile should match the slower heavier one right? But it seems well known the slower heavier one will go deeper given same diam. and energy.

Efficiency is the answer, there is a relationship between velocity/drag that is exponential. When you try to offset a lesser s.d. with more velocity in the same cartridge (same amount of powder burned/same amount of energy) the higher s.d. goes deeper because of that exponential drag to velocity relationship. In order to to equal the more efficient higher s.d. bullet you have to add a dis-proportionate amount of powder to get the same depth of penetration…jump to the next size up case (standard to magnum so to speak). That simple rule of thumb, faster it goes faster it stops, slower it goes slower it stops, can more easily be applied here to understand that. Ie; given same bullet construction, a 30-06 running a 180 gr will likely penetrate as deeply as a 300 win mag running a 150 grain. Which is more efficient? The 30-06 180 gr hands down, your shoulder will confirm it.

This is the draw to high s.d. bullets…efficiency. Another bonus is the higher s.d. bullets are often of much higher b.c. too so less losses on the way to target also, extending range capability. Again, more efficient. It’s win win.
The 6.5 creedmoor and all other 6.5’s are just more efficient in both areas, higher s.d. and b.c. is win win, on way to target, and through the target. It’s more than just marketing hype. Bell’s 1100 elephants mostly killed with 6.5 mannlichers/7x57’s explain so much about the subject around penetration. S.d. is the ultimate figure to use for comparing these things. The new .224 valkyrie running 90+ gr bullets is doing the same thing. Reduce the numbers of all cartridges/bullets to the same and you’ll see what will work for you, what your preferences are that you didn’t even realize.

Using the data available properly allows you to reduce a new cartridge like a .224 valkyrie or 6.5 Grendel or Creedmoor to comparable numbers rather than shoot a bunch of game and then figure out what works and doesn’t. We have the knowns, the data is there. When you crunch it on a new cartridge you can then see what it will compare to that we already know. A 6.5 Grendel will hang with a .243, it will beat it’s s.d. and match it’s impact velocities to the same distance and it will do it with substantially less powder. It’s quite a bit more efficient than the well proven and documented .243 win (in this case you need to burn another 20 grains of powder with the .243 win), the new Valkyrie will be exactly the same or as I’ve been saying plenty…these new cartridges punch way above their proverbial weight.
Forget ft/lbs, forget momentum, forget diam. forget headstamps. Get things reduced down to s.d./impact velocity/construction and you’ll be surprised what cartridges can meet or beat others already known…for distance potentials, and or, penetration potentials.

I know many of you are sick of this, don't read and don't respond. But show me better ways of comparing new cartridges to known, or existing to existing etc. and i'm all ears.

I wouldn't post this if the recorded animal deaths from any of the camps weren't bearing all this out in the real world.

[Mateo]

I was on board with everything but the statement 'faster it goes faster it stops' that's just too general of a statement and can way to easily get misinterpreted. I'm with you on the ultra efficient 6.5mm I know th 25 cal stuff goes too far and loses out on efficiency. and the 30 cal stuff goes too far the other way for mainstream cartridge speeds. I did years of research and came to my build decision of the 6.5 Sherman Shortmag. 140 gr with such a nice and high sectional density has proven to be a real quick killer on deer. this sheds such an attractive light on the .270 win.

[southernman]

The rest of the world, has known, that heavy for cal bullets, at moderate speeds, are very reliable, penetrate deeply and preform consistently,
Its just taking you North American's, a while (60-70 years) to figger it out,
After Roy Weatherby marketing, sucked you all in, Ha

[Bushleague]

How about lets not?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by southernman

The rest of the world, has known, that heavy for cal bullets, at moderate speeds, are very reliable, penetrate deeply and preform consistently,
Its just taking you North American's, a while (60-70 years) to figger it out,
After Roy Weatherby marketing, sucked you all in, Ha

Love this! Lol

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Mateo

this sheds such an attractive light on the .270 win.

Love this too. Big fan

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by southernman

The rest of the world, has known, that heavy for cal bullets, at moderate speeds, are very reliable, penetrate deeply and preform consistently,
Its just taking you North American's, a while (60-70 years) to figger it out,
After Roy Weatherby marketing, sucked you all in, Ha

Agree, speed is not your friend in a hunting round.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by southernman

The rest of the world, has known, that heavy for cal bullets, at moderate speeds, are very reliable, penetrate deeply and preform consistently,
Its just taking you North American's, a while (60-70 years) to figger it out,
After Roy Weatherby marketing, sucked you all in, Ha

Heavy for caliber bullets at moderate speeds do work, but they are not the only combination that works.

[jcrayford]

Huh. Some good points to ponder.

My lifelong 6.5x55 has never let me down. My inherited 25-06 has done the job on a Moose. Haven't hit anything with my 30-30 yet, but I'm confident it'll work. My 30-06 spewing 165 gr worked fine last year.

In all those listed above, the most important thing (and this can't be argued) is the shooter. You must be able to place a bullet in the proper space at the proper time to have 100% success. This leads me to my belief of shoot whatever you want, but deliver it to where you need to. If you flinch each time you pull a trigger, then shoot something that isn't going to kick you like a mule and your accuracy goes up.

Sure, ballistics mean a lot but ultimately accuracy should be our goal, no?

J.

[Big Sky]

Given the direction that the rest of these threads have gone, here is my bold prediction for this thread.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by southernman

The rest of the world, has known, that heavy for cal bullets, at moderate speeds, are very reliable, penetrate deeply and preform consistently,
Its just taking you North American's, a while (60-70 years) to figger it out,
After Roy Weatherby marketing, sucked you all in, Ha

Yup.....big, fat and slow wins.....45/70 style

[catnthehat]

Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith are sitting across a table at a quieter range and still arguing that each of them is right and the other guy is wrong .
Cat

[rpcw]

Fat and fast wins too!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith are sitting across a table at a quieter range and still arguing that each of them is right and the other guy is wrong .
Cat

very good, and Craig Boddington was a student of both, you can read it to this day in his writing, i think with a slight slant towards Elmer

[rpcw]

Originally Posted by jcrayford

Huh. Some good points to ponder.

My lifelong 6.5x55 has never let me down. My inherited 25-06 has done the job on a Moose. Haven't hit anything with my 30-30 yet, but I'm confident it'll work. My 30-06 spewing 165 gr worked fine last year.

In all those listed above, the most important thing (and this can't be argued) is the shooter. You must be able to place a bullet in the proper space at the proper time to have 100% success. This leads me to my belief of shoot whatever you want, but deliver it to where you need to. If you flinch each time you pull a trigger, then shoot something that isn't going to kick you like a mule and your accuracy goes up.

Sure, ballistics mean a lot but ultimately accuracy should be our goal, no?

J.

Shooter accuracy is important. Without that you could be using a Barrett and still miss.

[JD848]

Accuracy and proper shot placement are the number one rules,if neither of these two things occur your s.d or std or ltd or whatever you have means zip to most guys.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by JD848

Accuracy and proper shot placement are the number one rules,if neither of these two things occur your s.d or std or ltd or whatever you have means zip to most guys.

I try to assume that all cartridge based discussions are based on the shooter doing their part.

The regulations and rules around it should also be based around this assumption, and allow the good majority of capable cartridge choices.

The shooters themselves will always be a much bigger variable than the majority of cartridges we have available to choose from. I typically dodge those threads lol. It's such a personal thing and i'll no sooner impose my stipulations on another as have them do the same for me, i'll figure it out myself thanks...sort of thing.

As it is, most of our cartridges have way more than enough for 95-99% of what we typically do out there, including the weaker end of the spectrum.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by rpcw

Fat and fast wins too!

of course it does, most our common choices are overkill for what we usually end up doing with them anyway, just inefficient is all, in that scenario there is a casualty usually....your shoulder, that and a small percentage of shooters will be as good with the heavy hitters as they are with the lighter hitters, so it's a personal thing in the end

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Agree, speed is not your friend in a hunting round.

2700 fps 165 gr accubond in 308 win. Done

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

2700 fps 165 gr accubond in 308 win. Done

love it, solid combo right there, no one would argue it's ability...

and in my eyes i see this;

2700 fps, .248 s.d., .475 b.c., 1600 fps impact distance 650 yards, recoil energy 16 ft/lbs(9 lb gun)

Sure makes it easy to now see how anything else with a similar bullet construction compares to that.

ie;

2700 fps, 140 gr eld-x in 6.5 Creedmoor

and in my eyes i see this;

2700 fps, .287 s.d., .610 b.c., 1600 fps impact distance 850 yards, recoil energy 12 ft/lbs(9 lb gun)

*Used nosler load data and found max loads giving 2700 fps on both, the .308 used 46.5 grains of blc2 and the creedmoor used 41.5 grains of one of the 4350's.

and because it's a bit of a pet right now...

2550 fps, 123 gr sst, in 6.5 Grendel

and in my eyes i see this;

2550 fps, .252 s.d., .510 b.c., 1600 fps impact distance 625 yards, recoil energy 7.4 ft/lbs



*used sierra's load data for the grendel load, not much on noslers page

this how to compare a cartridge imo, for the things that matter to us

if max pbr is your priority then you won't want to do it exactly the same as this...tons of powder/light for caliber bullets and then add in the pbr distance variable

some want big ft/lbs, add it in there, i've seen some guys add time of flight(tof) to go with max distance potential....whatever is important to you

you study what you know, then you can see what else will do a similar job etc.

another known one

3000 fps, 100 gr partition, .243 win

or my view again;

3000 fps, .242 s.d., .384 b.c., 1600 fps impact velocity range 625 yards, recoil energy 9 ft/lbs(9 lb gun)

*nosler load data again, but a well known cartridge/bullet combo
**looks an awful lot like that Grendel, and had i not run the numbers i wouldn't have known, but the 6.5's sure show their efficiency

this is just how i compare cartridges, everyone has different needs or desires, choose your own methods but the data to accurately predict cartridges capabilities is available if you know how to use it

[Stinky Coyote]

curiosity sake

2700 fps, 90 gr matchking, .224 valkyrie

or;

2700 fps, .256 s.d., .563 b.c., 1600 fps impact distance 750 yards, recoil energy 5 ft/lbs

Should be similar to a 90 gr berger vld hunting etc. it's pretty new so not too many 'hunt' specific bullets yet for this one but it shows some very interesting potential in the .224 cal world!

[Nyksta]

Thats some cool comparisons. Thanks for throwing that together

[Stinky Coyote]

your welcome

edit, the 6.5 creedmoor comparison was with 143 gr eld-x bullet at 2700 fps and .293 s.d.!!! I typed 140 gr and the 140 gr s.d. but calculators i used the 143

and if curious on some of the calculators to get these figures, even some of the figures i don't prescribe too like momentum, it is still fun to compare things you know to things you don't so just compiling a few here

https://bisonballistics.com/point_mass_calculations/new
https://www.beartoothbullets.com/res...hp/density.htm
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

it's all just for comparison sake anyway

ft/lbs i've memorized for so long as i've used it for archery/airguns/firearms...fps squared x grains divided by 450240

[Kurt505]

I've got to admit Stinky, you are one patient and persistent fella. Unfortunately there are some audience members who equal your patience and persistence with denial and disbelief.

Those of us who have taken the time and approached this subject with an open mind will be able to ballistically benefit from the math, others seem to want to fight physics with incorrect beliefs and deny facts.

In any case, I'm loving the heck out of shooting my Creedmoor and can't wait until hunting season!

[Nyksta]

what cartridge choice comes down to is personal preference for choice of firearm and what make and model you pick sometimes limits cartridge choice. After that, the preferred rifle weight and barrel length you want to carry so that it is effective to suit the cartridge choice. Also important to consider is if you are bothered by using a long action or short action or magnum vs standard. Or if you are bothered by a barrel burner or not. Of course high bc bullets are more efficient at carrying energy to longer ranges, but the longer s.d. bullets also penetrate deeper and dont open up as quickly. a heavier bullet with lower sectional density bullet will open up more on impact. I trade off the b.c. and accept higher recoil of heavier 30 cal bullets versus higher bc higher sd lower recoil, because the heavier 30 cal bullet starts with more muzzle energy at closer distances, and the 30 cal frontal area combined with lower sd means it will open up and dump energy at a higher rate than a higher sd skinnier bullet. If i was constantly going to be shooting at 400 to 500 meters, then the 6.5 creedmoor with its better bc would buck wind better and being more efficient, would be carrying similar energy to 308 at those distances. But the final point is, im willing to have the higher recoil to gain the higher kinetic energy for the majority of my shots on game that are 90% of the time inside of 200m. I want as much energy dumped into the vitals with the widest frontal area mushroom as possible. recoil is the direct result of filling that bullet with the energy. BC is great for long range, it doesnt come into play much for 90% of the hunting distances.

I recently watched a youtube where a guy shot at close range a 140gr 6.5 creedmore beside a 165gr 308 win. The 6.5 creedmoor and the 308 had nearly identical penetration on on each of the tests. The 308 consistently had a noticeably larger hole cutting through, vs the 6.5 had a small skinny hole the whole way until they both stopped at equal distances. It made me think that there is a point where sectional density may get so high that lower velocities dont have the velocity to cause a nice mushroom expansion. I think 2.48 sectional density is excellent for my 308 shooting 2700 fps at the muzzle hitting targets around 10m to 300 meters. Maybe these massively high sd bullets would benefit from higher velocities to open up more. What do you guys think?

I know all of them will kill if proper shot placement into the vitals, but the lack of expansion in that video just got me thinking about bullet expansion physics.

[rpcw]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

of course it does, most our common choices are overkill for what we usually end up doing with them anyway, just inefficient is all, in that scenario there is a casualty usually....your shoulder, that and a small percentage of shooters will be as good with the heavy hitters as they are with the lighter hitters, so it's a personal thing in the end

Yup it is a personal thing for sure. I enjoy the heavy hitters but have a 6.5 as well as other cals.

I will say one thing with the large cals, efficiencies aside, the last 5 deer I took over last two years were DRT.

When I say DRT it means off their feet and not one more step. Perfect examples of hydrostatic shock.

For many years I dismissed this phenomenon but know better now.

[Smokinyotes]

I was hoping to shoot my moose this fall with my 45/70 with a 350 gr round nose Hornady handload. After all the Grendel, Creedmoor, 6.5 this and 6.5 that threads I have come to the conclusion that my 45/70 is no longer capable or adequate for hunting moose. Now I don’t have any fancy hi tech 6.5’s but I do have a 6.5x55 that will have to do.

[rpcw]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I was hoping to shoot my moose this fall with my 45/70 with a 350 gr round nose Hornady handload. After all the Grendel, Creedmoor, 6.5 this and 6.5 that threads I have come to the conclusion that my 45/70 is no longer capable or adequate for hunting moose. Now I don’t have any fancy hi tech 6.5’s but I do have a 6.5x55 that will have to do.

Lol Ummm ok.

I say use the 45/70 and Bullwinkle will crumble!

[Don_Parsons]

My 270 friend shoots 150gr semi pointed round noise bullets.
Up close to 150 yards.

Boy, those bullets flatten bucks and Elk like nothing

Mostly in the draw works or front shoulder.

Small hole on the front side, fist size on the other.

[Beeman3]

215 Bergers out of my 300 Win Mag have had incredible results on game. My gun shoots them right at 3000 fps with H1000. It is as close to a perfect match in the 300 Win Mag as you can get. From close up, out to 1000 yds its deadly!