Danielle S. this morning

[chimpac]

Interesting show this morning on 770 radio. Thousands of people leave the country to get medical attention each year. They spent an average near $25000.00 each. A few months ago Donald Trump said he thought Canada had a good health care system. He has changed his mind big time.

Does anyone have kids involved in the school program she was talking about, devoted to market a new product. I have a project for them.

[Scott N]

It does make me shake my head a little when people think Canada's medical system is so great. Last time I checked we were 30th on WHO's world wide ranking. Anyone remember when Liberal Cabinet Minister Belinda Stronach was diagnosed with cancer and went to the USA for treatment? Not exactly a ringing endorsement by the government of the day regarding our sacred public health care system.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Scott N

It does make me shake my head a little when people think Canada's medical system is so great. Last time I checked we were 30th on WHO's world wide ranking. Anyone remember when Liberal Cabinet Minister Belinda Stronach was diagnosed with cancer and went to the USA for treatment? Not exactly a ringing endorsement by the government of the day regarding our sacred public health care system.

If you checked a bit further, you would see the USA is 37th.

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/

The full report here:

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

I prefer Canada's system. So do my American neighbors in Florida who have to abide by their's.

[TBD]

Chretien - tobin - paul martin

their benefits plans prolly cover alot of it though ...

and the rest of us - wait in line or PAY UP suckers !

if you have an elderly ( 75 plus ) in the hospital ---- be very very careful especially if they start needing more and more medical attention, make sure you read the forms they`ll have you sign very - very carefully !

TBD

PS ... and the politicos will lead us to believe we have the best medical system in the world

here`s an idea - I would like to Opt out and have all my tax dollars that have went into supporting Canada`s health care SCAM back.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by avb3

If you checked a bit further, you would see the USA is 37th.

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/

The full report here:

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

I prefer Canada's system. So do my American neighbors in Florida who have to abide by their's.

Why does everyone hold up the USA as the only alternative? Their system sucks but they do excel in many areas. Precisely why many Canadians travel to the USA for treatment in some circumstances.

Canada needs to get out of the public only mindset. Too many entrenched healthcare workers.

Switch over to a private system, let people pay for things like broken legs, doctor visits, etc and have a catastrophic government system of insurance that would kick in for major things like cancer, heart surgery etc.

Current system is not sustainable. When governments start waving their magic wand over something it invariably turns into a pile of crappola with 10 pie-eaters for every 2 pie-makers.


PS: They can make the switch right after I die. I've already paid into the "free" healthcare system.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Why does everyone hold up the USA as the only alternative? Their system sucks but they do excel in many areas. Precisely why many Canadians travel to the USA for treatment in some circumstances.

Canada needs to get out of the public only mindset. Too many entrenched healthcare workers.

Switch over to a private system, let people pay for things like broken legs, doctor visits, etc and have a catastrophic government system of insurance that would kick in for major things like cancer, heart surgery etc.

Current system is not sustainable. When governments start waving their magic wand over something it invariably turns into a pile of crappola with 10 pie-eaters for every 2 pie-makers.


PS: They can make the switch right after I die. I've already paid into the "free" healthcare system.

Your perspective has some validity, but where do we draw the line at what is insured versus what is not? Actually, in some respects, there already are some constraints to that.

The next issue becomes, what about those who can't afford to pay for that broken leg? Where do we draw the line again.

I would prefer to see a first time charge for an ailment of a co-pay of say $10 with no charge for followups. That would stop some of sniffle queens who drag the kid for every little thing to a clinic.

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by avb3

If you checked a bit further, you would see the USA is 37th.

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/

The full report here:

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

I prefer Canada's system. So do my American neighbors in Florida who have to abide by their's.

My only point is that most Canadians think that we have a great medical system. Facts point that it isn't that great, and because it's such "sacred cow", no one is willing to look at alternatives, such as private funding.

[bergman]

My experience has been that the US has been ok, but Canada's quality of care FAR exceeds what I've seen in some parts of the States. And then some areas of the States I have seen it has been way more efficient than Canada's system with faster and more attentive care.

But then, also, care varies from place to place in Alberta alone. I usually have way better care when I go to a smaller rural hospital for anything general, and way better care in the city for anything that needs a specialist.

The fact is, when I have an accident in Canada I get good care (maybe not the best, but better than 90% or people in the world) and I am not impoverished for it. I don't have to mortgage my house if I need cancer treatments. And Canada acting as a single market buyer - basically a healthcare unit - can negotiate way better prices for things like medications from big pharmaceutical companies. In the US, each hospital-corpation is much smaller and doesn't have the same leverage to do that, or is owned by those same big pharmaceutical companies and doesn't care to.

And each different corporation might have different quality of service as well, so it depends where you go.

I have no real complaints with Canada's healthcare system, but then I haven't had the major problems with it that others have. All I'm saying is that it beats the heck out of most of the alternatives I have seen.

Sure we can, and should, make it better, but I have yet to see a perfect human institution anywhere in the world. I am thankful for what we have. I feel like I have already won the geographical lottery just by being born here instead of some impoverished country somewhere.

Canada is alright.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by avb3

Your perspective has some validity, but where do we draw the line at what is insured versus what is not? Actually, in some respects, there already are some constraints to that.

The next issue becomes, what about those who can't afford to pay for that broken leg? Where do we draw the line again.

I would prefer to see a first time charge for an ailment of a co-pay of say $10 with no charge for followups. That would stop some of sniffle queens who drag the kid for every little thing to a clinic.

People in Canada who "can't" afford the broken leg fix will always get health care. We're a welfare state. No matter what system we go to will really only be another tax on the productive.

Like I said. I don't want to see any changes to the system until I die. They've already sucked all my healthcare money out of me. Soon time for me to start taking it out of the system.

I'm probably going to start voting NDP soon and maybe even donate to them with the hopes of landing a plum government job. With my luck we'll switch to a conservative country right when it's time for me to start withdrawing my lifetime of contributions to the welfare state.

[Stustage]

Originally Posted by TBD

here`s an idea - I would like to Opt out and have all my tax dollars that have went into supporting Canada`s health care SCAM back.

I did just that in my 20's because I never used it, got injured at work one time and although it was "workers comp" I still took an over 2k hit. I got it back when I got married cause kids are always getting sick, shortly after we stopped having to pay the premiums so now it really doesn't matter. Myself I have used my number once in over 11 years for an emergency (pneumonia) and 3 times for "medicals"[two of which I also paid out of pocket for] (one drivers, one "follow up" from a pre-employment medical to get confirmation, and a new patient one)

[Okotokian]

I think if you want to get faster service and can pay for it you should be able to get it. I'm surprised that there hasn't been a constitutional challenge. Abortion and assisted suicide are legal in this country primarily because government hasn't been successful in trying to maintain jurisdiction over what people can do with their own bodies.

Life, liberty and security of person (from Charter of Rights and Freedoms)

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

How could a court uphold a government's right to deny your ability to get cancer treatment if you can get it right away? I bet they couldn't.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I think if you want to get faster service and can pay for it you should be able to get it. I'm surprised that there hasn't been a constitutional challenge. Abortion and assisted suicide are legal in this country primarily because government hasn't been successful in trying to maintain jurisdiction over what people can do with their own bodies.

Life, liberty and security of person (from Charter of Rights and Freedoms)

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

How could a court uphold a government's right to deny your ability to get cancer treatment if you can get it right away? I bet they couldn't.

Read the fine print. (To be interpreted as government sees fit. Not binding on the government of the day)

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Read the fine print. (To be interpreted as government sees fit. Not binding on the government of the day)

Though that would be for the Supreme Court to decide, not the govt.

[raab]

Should bring in private and keep the public. Lots of people can afford an ultrasound/MRI and would be willing to pay to get it done immediately. Would ensure better care for all the poor, middle class, and wealthy. Only thing I'd worry about is the insurance companies pushing to make everything private.

[CMichaud]

Personally I think the real problem is the production of doctors. We have too few doctors and this drives up wages and creates shortages and waiting lists.

[silverdoctor]

Real problem is abuse of the system. Canada is a nation of hypochondriacs running to the doctor or heaven forbid, the ER for the simple things. Have 2 family members that are doctors, they see the same faces all the time, can't treat with chicken soup so they have to go through the system "just in case". This all costs money.

Start dinging people that abuse the system, start billing the ones that keep running to the doctors with colds and fart jams.


I have friends back in Nfld, take their kids to the ER cause they got the sniffles then scream on facebook cause people are going ahead of them when they are brought in by ambulance. I can only hang my head.

[schmedlap]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Read the fine print. (To be interpreted as government sees fit. Not binding on the government of the day)

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Though that would be for the Supreme Court to decide, not the govt.

The "principles of fundamental justice", more often referred to as "natural justice" are not something either the government or the courts can just redefine or make up as they go. They are those old tenets of democratic and justicial process that say silly (?) things like anyone accused of wrongdoing has the right to face and challenge the accuser, one cannot be deprived of one's civil rights or property without due process of law, etc. It's all supposed to be a balancing act between individual and collective rights and governmental restrictions on same. The SCC is the ultimate arbiter, yes, but, as much as that can be influenced, of course, by personal leanings of the individuals on the court, the end tendency is at least theoretically (and generally practically?) to require the government to honor the background principles before regulating behaviour or choices.

I predict that the proponents of allowing private insurance and clinics are going to win, based on past and precedential decisions. And I support one's right to such services, one's right to pay for them out of one's own pocket, and the existence of such availability. The hardline socialist viewpoints of repression of such are just the usual unrealistic theories of what is best for all us poor ignorant peons, without any injection of historical example or plain common sense.

The "rich" are never going to wait in line. Regardless of the sometimes sanctimonious official positions of some of them (Ms. Stronach is a prime example), they are going to jump the line, and if this means going to Denver or Hamburg or Beijing to get the best treatment immediately ...? - we cannot prevent that with any degree of democratic regulation. What we could do is prevent that money, and the related level of exceptional medical talent, from leaving the country (which it decidedly and demonstrably does), which is, in the end, what our benevolent masters are trying to preserve - why? If I decide not to suffer for many weeks whilst awaiting treatment from the public system (and I have done this for MRI's several times), even though I have paid for the "service" through my nose for decades, and to pay for it myself, all that has happened is that someone who cannot afford to do this has moved up one notch in the line and gets their treatment quicker on my tab, and the service providers with some entrepreneurial bent (such a terrible thing?) have stayed here, along with the money I spent. We could have a balanced system of socialized medicine which would serve everyone much better if this whole "sacredness" of prevention of any innovation was tossed.

[chimpac]

I think cars cost to much money so the Govt. should start making cars. Can you imagine what we would get for a car if the politicians (elected officials) and their hired men were making cars. What if the Govt. made car was the only kind you legally could buy in Canada.
Our Alberta health care is run by elected officials and their hired men.To get the best product there has to be completion among a lot of brainy, talented people.

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I think if you want to get faster service and can pay for it you should be able to get it. I'm surprised that there hasn't been a constitutional challenge. Abortion and assisted suicide are legal in this country primarily because government hasn't been successful in trying to maintain jurisdiction over what people can do with their own bodies.

Life, liberty and security of person (from Charter of Rights and Freedoms)

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

How could a court uphold a government's right to deny your ability to get cancer treatment if you can get it right away? I bet they couldn't.

\

You can pay for it, Montana is only a few hours away, if you can afford to pay for it you can afford for fly down there, or drive.

Many people go down for in vitro fertilization cause its cheaper, when we did it we saved well over 5 grand.

[drhu22]

Originally Posted by Scott N

It does make me shake my head a little when people think Canada's medical system is so great. Last time I checked we were 30th on WHO's world wide ranking.

30th out of 190, followed by...
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
It needs improvement, but I think we're pretty darn lucky to have it.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by Scott N

My only point is that most Canadians think that we have a great medical system. Facts point that it isn't that great, and because it's such "sacred cow", no one is willing to look at alternatives, such as private funding.

They think we have a great medical system ibecause they are under the illusion that it's free.

[guywiththemule]

The communist health care system in kanada and albertistan is a joke. Have had experience with the health-care system in the USA and Argentina and sad to say they are superior to our "top heavy" joke.

[DiabeticKripple]

i think that there should be both public and private healthcare.

if you want to pay, you can go to a private clinic to get surgeries, cat scans, mri's etc.

if you dont want to pay, you can wait like everyone else does now.

this would cut lines down as people that want to get in quick can pay to see someone in the private sector.

[NCC]

One of my pals visited clinics in Alberta several times with severe stomach pain and was sent home with Peptobismal. While on vacation in Florida, the pain flared up and within a few hours of entering a clinic he had an MRI and found out he was full of cancer but it was too late to treat and he passed a few months later. I was sent home with a gall bladder that was ready to burst, my uncle was checked out and sent home with an undiagnosed broken neck and broken ribs, and another guy I know was sent home with a broken pelvis all because the doctor didn't want to authorize an MRI. Yet the system spends millions keeping people alive that have no quality of life and want to die, using the hospital for an old folk's home, baby sitting service, holding cell, drunk tank and dry out center.l. Incompetent, lazy and crooked doctors get paid the same as the best general practitioner in AHS. There are many things AHS could learn from American health care providers.

If 50% of our taxes goes towards health care, think about how much money you contribute to our "free" health care and then consider what kind of insurance you could buy with that cash.

[DiabeticKripple]

Double post

[avb3]

Originally Posted by raab

Should bring in private and keep the public. Lots of people can afford an ultrasound/MRI and would be willing to pay to get it done immediately. Would ensure better care for all the poor, middle class, and wealthy. Only thing I'd worry about is the insurance companies pushing to make everything private.

You can get an MRI/Ultrasound done tomorrow at a number of places in Alberta. Privat MRIs have been here for close to 2 decades.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Scott N

My only point is that most Canadians think that we have a great medical system. Facts point that it isn't that great, and because it's such "sacred cow", no one is willing to look at alternatives, such as private funding.

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

The communist health care system in kanada and albertistan is a joke. Have had experience with the health-care system in the USA and Argentina and sad to say they are superior to our "top heavy" joke.

We do have a great system. If you have excess money the US system is pretty sweet. However for your everyday AOF member we have it lucky to not live in the US.

It costs more money to run the US system versus the Canadian system.

Life expectancy in Canada is better than the US. 82 versus 79 years.

Cost per capita is much higher in the US versus Canada.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ure_per_capita

Healthcare costs as a measure of GDP is far higher in the US versus Canada.

Every metric shows we rock in Canada.

Thank the lucky stars to be Canadian!

[ESOXangler]

When my first son was born at 30 weeks and weighing 2#15oz I witnessed how truly blessed we are to have the system that we have. I met stellar Drs, amazing devoted nurses and even the unionized cleaning staff were incredibly respectful and I appreciate all of that! Ever been to the stollery and see the miracles they perform everyday? It's a facility that is second only to Toronto sick kids and often Drs from around the world come over to gain experience for the staff there! My son also has a heart condition and that part of the stollery is also a godsend. Those "overpaid, greedy union workers" have the hardest job in the world and they show up and do the best they can every day!

I'm honoured and privledge that I grew up in Canada and have it's public system to thank for it.

I'm not against upgrades but I don't believe we should have a two tiered system. The result will be a terrible public system which is basically a training ground and a excellent private system that caters to the rich. Perhaps there's room for a blend but I don't have an answer for it!

[riden]

After devoting an entire 10 min researching this, I am not convinced this rating of 30th is what many people here think it is. One thing I noticed is many countries ranked higher than us also include dental care and/or free prescription drugs in their system. When you read the survey, they are ranking health systems, not health care.

What is the definition of a system? I suspect they are including dental and prescription drugs as part of their system.

Also, "fairness in financing" is a major factor in their ranking.

This is not a rank of 30th in quality of our hospitals, doctors, nurses etc.

From the paper:The third intrinsic goal is fairness in financing and financial risk protection. The aim is to ensure that poor households should
not pay a higher share of their discretionary expenditure on health than richer households, and all households should be protected against catastrophic financial losses related to ill health.2

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by avb3

If you checked a bit further, you would see the USA is 37th.

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/

The full report here:

http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

I prefer Canada's system. So do my American neighbors in Florida who have to abide by their's.

Ha that's because 99% of Florida is made up of old retired canucks who can't handle the cold any more lol