Here we go again re: feral horses

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by new LT

Some scientific facts say horses have been in north america 50 million years

Those same scientific fact indicate that they were extinct about 12,000 years ago before a different version came across the pond. What's your point? Should we now reintroduce cheetahs since they originated in North America and disappeared at the same time as horses?

[BGSH]

Wolves and cougars also love taking down horses reason is one horse will last a family of wolves a week as will last a cougar a month. Humans again are the cause of every species in Canada declineing.

[new LT]

Originally Posted by PBHunter

Did you miss the part were the scientific facts state they went EXTINCT in NA and were brought back by the Spanish?

Yet between 10,000 and 7,600 years ago, the horse became extinct in North America and rare elsewhere.

We believe the wild horses are native to the Americas and, specifically to the Alberta wild horses, the government’s argument actually conflicts with scientific fact both ecological and evolutionary,” said Calvert, adding horses have been in North America for upwards of 50 million years.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

not seeing any evidence that supports that theory.

Should we contact Nate to bring forth findings from the last cougar studies. As it was very well noted that certain individual cougars specifically targeted horses. They arent as numerous as those that targeted ungulates but horses were a Definet food source none the less.

Oh and that's a proven fact not a theory!!!!

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

I got through the first 2 pages of this crap and all I can say is farmers cause more damage to the environment then horses. They also are competition for food with all other grazers in the province as they not only destroy and convert the natural landscape to suit their needs, but they also encourage the removal of grazers from their land as they are his competition. It's also the farmers who allow their animals to go feral via gross negligence (a crime in Canada).

My solution, let the horses be, and round up all the farmers and eradicate them.

If the anti's have a real problem with the horses they should be more inclined to reduce predator harvests which will find an equilibrium with the prey species and keep the numbers at a sustainable level for the environment. I'm sure the cougars and wolves take down a few of those mangy nags every year.

I bet some of you who want to horses eradicated are also for sending the wild African animals that were brought overseas to Texas for game ranches back to Africa. Some of the species in these game parks are now the ONLY wild specimens left as they've been eradicated from Africa due to over hunting, logging, agricultural expansion and the growing bush meat trade.

Right kill all the farmers. You must be a city boy. Now let's talk about reality.

Cougars and wolves do get a few as my pic illustrates. A pack of 7 wolves took this one down over a span of several miles. It didn't go easy but it went.



Out of curiosity, what animals are only in Texas and not in Africa anymore?

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Should we contact Nate to bring forth findings from the last cougar studies. As it was very well noted that certain individual cougars specifically targeted horses. They arent as numerous as those that targeted ungulates but horses were a Definet food source none the less.

Oh and that's a proven fact not a theory!!!!

That's an old story from an outdated study and those were the ponies west of Nordegg. It was a cougar, singular.

[PBHunter]

Originally Posted by new LT

We believe the wild horses are native to the Americas and, specifically to the Alberta wild horses, the government’s argument actually conflicts with scientific fact both ecological and evolutionary,” said Calvert, adding horses have been in North America for upwards of 50 million years.

Again ;

CANADIAN MUSTANGS
In Western Canada, settlement occurred later so horse populations once numbered in the millions. Also, there is clear evidence of horses until 12,000 years ago with isolated finds indicating there may have been horses closer to 3000-1000 years ago.
Anecdotal evidence shows that in 1776, herds of mustangs were kept by Assiniboines in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. By 1790, Alberta tribes had acquired mustangs from Shoshoni and under two decades later, there were extensive herds in the Kootenays, estimated at two million in total! Wild herds served as stock for Natives, and escapees often replenished them.

There are four main herds of horses in Canada today: Sable Island in Nova Scotia, two herds in B.C.’s Brittany Triangle (Chilcotin), and one in the Siffleur Wilderness Area in Alberta. Herds in both B.C. and Alberta have shown evidence of Spanish blood, possibly from the “Spanish mustang trail” that came from Mexico up to the Canadian prairies.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by new LT

We believe the wild horses are native to the Americas and, specifically to the Alberta wild horses, the government’s argument actually conflicts with scientific fact both ecological and evolutionary,” said Calvert, adding horses have been in North America for upwards of 50 million years.

You can believe that someone has thrown a pillow at you. That's perception and everyone has it.

When the brick hits you in the head, that's reality. There is only one reality. That one has horses extinct in North America until recent reintroductions.

Prove otherwise -- with an actual scientist.

And who is we?

[new LT]

Originally Posted by PBHunter

Again ;

CANADIAN MUSTANGS
In Western Canada, settlement occurred later so horse populations once numbered in the millions. Also, there is clear evidence of horses until 12,000 years ago with isolated finds indicating there may have been horses closer to 3000-1000 years ago.
Anecdotal evidence shows that in 1776, herds of mustangs were kept by Assiniboines in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. By 1790, Alberta tribes had acquired mustangs from Shoshoni and under two decades later, there were extensive herds in the Kootenays, estimated at two million in total! Wild herds served as stock for Natives, and escapees often replenished them.

There are four main herds of horses in Canada today: Sable Island in Nova Scotia, two herds in B.C.’s Brittany Triangle (Chilcotin), and one in the Siffleur Wilderness Area in Alberta. Herds in both B.C. and Alberta have shown evidence of Spanish blood, possibly from the “Spanish mustang trail” that came from Mexico up to the Canadian prairies.

I'm not saying your post is wrong it would not be the first time scientific facts from different groups were not the same

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by new LT

I'm not saying your post is wrong it would not be the first time scientific facts from different groups were not the same

Again, a reputable scientist who believes horse were always here? A group can make up anything it wants to.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by sjemac

..... horses extinct in North America until recent reintroductions.

so....Cubans are to blame for the feral horses in Alberta?!

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Rman

I will promise you on this forum that I will take you up on your very generous offer. I do hope there is no time limit, and that sometime in early July will work out.
However, I am not sure what you are planning on showing me? You have no scientific or other plausible proof that those horses are not having some kind of impact on either the enviroment or other actual wild species. This same argument applies to those that think they are having an affect.

Again, that is not my argument.

My statement is simple. They are escaped and freed livestock, and therefore feral. They do not belong in the wild. End of story. No different than Norway Rat, Bunnies, or anything else. Introduced and invasive species do not need to be protected or managed in any way. They need to not be there.
R.

I take it that you would support, and encourage, a complete eradication of all pheasants and hungarian partrige in the province of Alberta?

[Rman]

Originally Posted by albertadave

I take it that you would support, and encourage, a complete eradication of all pheasants and hungarian partrige in the province of Alberta?

You can take my opinions to whatever extreme you would like.
I have repeated myself often enough.

Are, or were, pheasants and hungarian partridge native to this province?

R.

[artie]

not to prolong this thread but something I was wondering about is I see wild horse in Maclean Creek and Little and Big Elbow where the snow gets deep in the winter but I never see any in the Crowsnest Pass. Years ago I would hear the oldtimers talking about wild horses in the Pass but not now. I know the elk have to get down to the lower parts of the pass or go to the foothills but I wonder why wild or feral horses have not been seen in the pass. I would think that the gap area would be good for horses but I do not see them there.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Rman

You can take my opinions to whatever extreme you would like.
I have repeated myself often enough.

Are, or were, pheasants and hungarian partridge native to this province?

R.

Both were introduced. And I don't think I'm taking them to the extreme at all.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by albertadave

I take it that you would support, and encourage, a complete eradication of all pheasants and hungarian partrige in the province of Alberta?

If there was any indication that they were negatively impacting Sharptails and Sage Grouse or other native species, yes. There is no indication that they do though -- unless you have some.

The horse issue is less clear and I would love to see a real study done on it and about Alberta's horses specifically.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by sjemac

If there was any indication that they were negatively impacting Sharptails and Sage Grouse or other native species, yes. There is no indication that they do though -- unless you have some.

The horse issue is less clear and I would love to see a real study done on it and about Alberta's horses specifically.

No, I have none, and it was Rman that said "all invasive and introduced species should not be there" Not me. Why is the horse issue less clear? SG has been asking for three days for someone to provide proof that the horses are negatively impacting game, and so far no one has.

[albertadave]

Do you have a study proving that pheasants and huns DON'T negatively impact native game birds?

[Rman]

Originally Posted by albertadave

Both were introduced. And I don't think I'm taking them to the extreme at all.

You already know my answer, so why ask?

Again, eradication won't work, so why talk about it?

Introduced and invasive species do not need to be protected or managed in any way. They need to not be there.

If this includes pheasant and hungarian partridge, then so be it. There are plenty of native game birds availible to hunt.

Introduced species have done more damage to enviroment that most are willing to admit. Picking ones that you like and ones that you don't isn't a solution, its part of the problem.

And again, sjemac seems to have a fairly good answer.

R.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by albertadave

Do you have a study proving that pheasants and huns DON'T negatively impact native game birds?

Nope. But nobody is kiyiiing about them. When they start we might need a study or two.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

That's an old story from an outdated study and those were the ponies west of Nordegg. It was a cougar, singular.

An out dated study that ended a few years ago? I believe the latest cougar study was from 2007 a 2010. Or at least thats what we were again informed if when turning a collar this past cougar season that jad been damaged and unrecoverable. That cat had also been noted ro have harvested horses. None the less "cats" plural were documented as having harvested horses.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by albertadave

No, I have none, and it was Rman that said "all invasive and introduced species should not be there" Not me. Why is the horse issue less clear? SG has been asking for three days for someone to provide proof that the horses are negatively impacting game, and so far no one has.

What would be the purpose of providing someone proof when they are not capable of comprehending it.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by Rman

You already know my answer, so why ask?

Again, eradication won't work, so why talk about it?

Introduced and invasive species do not need to be protected or managed in any way. They need to not be there.

If this includes pheasant and hungarian partridge, then so be it. There are plenty of native game birds availible to hunt.

Introduced species have done more damage to enviroment that most are willing to admit. Picking ones that you like and ones that you don't isn't a solution, its part of the problem.And again, sjemac seems to have a fairly good answer.

R.

"sjemac seems to have a fairly good answer."???? and yet he's doing exactly what I've bolded here.
Pheasants good Horses bad.

[new LT]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

What would be the purpose of providing someone proof when they are not capable of comprehending it.

How would you know that it will not be comprehended when you have not or can not produce it...

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by sjemac

Right kill all the farmers. You must be a city boy. Now let's talk about reality.

Actually, I've only lived in a city for about a year and a half of my life, I was a year and a half when I left. Secondly, you must not have noticed my sarcastic smiley beside the comment. I must try harder to convey sarcasm via text on the internet.

Originally Posted by sjemac

Cougars and wolves do get a few as my pic illustrates. A pack of 7 wolves took this one down over a span of several miles. It didn't go easy but it went.

Out of curiosity, what animals are only in Texas and not in Africa anymore?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7396832n

My apologies, it's been a while since I saw this and my info got a little mixed up but the jist of it was right. This segment is what I'm referring to. The Anti in this gives most anti's a bad name. She's hardcore.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by albertadave

"sjemac seems to have a fairly good answer."???? and yet he's doing exactly what I've bolded here.
Pheasants good Horses bad.

No that's not what I've done. I stated that if the introduced species is causing problems and dissent, then we had better rethink its place. Nobody is complaining about pheasants. Many are complaining about horses. If you want to go after the pheasants -- go for it.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

Originally Posted by albertadave

"sjemac seems to have a fairly good answer."???? and yet he's doing exactly what I've bolded here.
Pheasants good Horses bad.

no to my understanding they have introduced chuckars ,
if you read up on them they are a nasty invasive species why is alright for them and not the horses , I say keep the original wild Spanish blood lines and thin out the rest

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

What would be the purpose of providing someone proof when they are not capable of comprehending it.

To show you actually have any clue what your talking about but until you actually show some proof of any part of this you just keep showing all the members you talk big but it all ends there!!

[Alberta Bigbore]

stay on topic or the thread will be zipped up

[BGSH]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Just a little friendly joking Bigbore. Nothing serious.

I've seen several horses last year west of nordegg. I was wondering if this group was 100% wild. And if so what is there free range?