Outfitter Illegally Sold Bighorn Sheep Permits to an American?

[Rocky7]

The bottom line for me is that the American cannot own hunting permits for Alberta bighorns or any Alberta game. If outfitters constructed any deal to "get around" that prohibition, they deserve sanction. That includes the outfitter who fronted his name for the American and the second outfitter who dealt with the American to acquire Alberta permits.

I don't see why it matters that they called it a "lease" or a "contract" or a "trust" or anything else. It's shady and it's probably illegal.

For .02, I'd say we trade a good part of the "subsistence" treaty hunting - which we all know has had little or nothing whatsoever to do with subsistence for at least 50 years for any reserve south of 60 - and give the bands these permits for their own use or for sale or for outfitting or whatever. Besides, an American would get a big kick out of hunting sheep with someone like WB for big money. (no offence, pardner....just sayin'). I think there might be some merit in thinking about it, anyway.

[HELL]

Dosnt surprize me if it was looked into deeply you find a lot of US money backing Alberta outfitters its a money game and leaves resident albertana ou.t in the cold trying to buy tags logitimatly

[nekred]

Koind of like how you cannot sell rights to access land for hunting... but can charge a gate opening fee...

Not Alberta related but how does an americn buy a big game guiding outfit in Canada (BC) and have rights the resident hunter does not....

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by nekred

Koind of like how you cannot sell rights to access land for hunting... but can charge a gate opening fee...

Not Alberta related but how does an americn buy a big game guiding outfit in Canada (BC) and have rights the resident hunter does not....

Are you saying an American could buy but a Canadian couldn't??
Pretty sure a Canadian has the RIGHT to buy a guiding outfit.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Are you saying an American could buy but a Canadian couldn't??
Pretty sure a Canadian has the RIGHT to buy a guiding outfit.

I think he is saying the "tags" (ie. rights) are available to the non-resident but not the resident....

LC

[nekred]

Correct Lefty that is what I meant...

[hal53]

No wonder the Americans think we're dumb as a sack of hammers!!!...because we are. The tail is wagging the dog here with APOS. Say what you like about Morton as the SRD Minister, he started this crap!!!....the only good thing he did was open Sunday hunting, which I now believe was a clever ploy to keep us redneck Albertans happy, while his American buddies can move in and rape our resources!!!

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by hal53

No wonder the Americans think we're dumb as a sack of hammers!!!...because we are. The tail is wagging the dog here with APOS. Say what you like about Morton as the SRD Minister, he started this crap!!!....the only good thing he did was open Sunday hunting, which I now believe was a clever ploy to keep us redneck Albertans happy, while his American buddies can move in and rape our resources!!!

He did?

I used to be a supporter of Morton until he came up with that socialist abortion called the "Land Bills" (Bill 19, Bill 24, Bill 36, and Bill 50). Maybe he had me fooled? Maybe he got religion after he got into Cabinet? I don't know, but he's not a friend of anybody I'd call "conservative", that's for sure.

As for this other stuff, there's a point where a guy feels like there's no use talking anymore and somebody just needs a slap. I'm not saying that's any answer, I'm just saying it feels like that sometimes.

I'm back to my idea of trading all the outfitter permits/tags/licences/leases or whatever else they call it to our Indian Bands in trade for their "subsistence" hunting that isn't. Win-win, the way I see it.

[echo]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

Walking Buffalo, You better read what you quoted a little closer before you post Chads name in this manner.

(Outfitter Illegally Sold Bighorn Sheep Permits to an American?)

Heres what you posted.

Details are sketchy and convoluted, but the gist seems to be that an American puchased Alberta Bighorn Sheep Outfitter Permits from the new Mantracker, Chad Lenz ( Savage Encounters Outfitting).

Walking Buffalo the tags were not purchased from chad they were put in chads name.( why you had to put the new mantracker on there is beyond me).

Morgan said when he purchased the permits he consulted with a lawyer who informed him he’d need a local connection, such as Lenz, to lease the permits to hunters.

“He explained those permits would always have to be held by an Albertan, a Class-S guide,” he told lawyer Teddy Nobles.

So when Bruce borrowed money to chad, chad purchased the tags from Stricker and Ken they were always in chads name.

So when things got tight and Chad was late on making a payment to Bruce ,Bruce tryed to transfer the tags into Frank Simpson name.

Of course the tags were never in bruces name so he couldnt, but the paperwork caused a chitshow which in return the 60000$ worth of hunters chad lost in that year caused another battle and no hunters were booked in that year.

I only posted here to set the facts straight. Like Steve said business deal gone sour.

x2 well said.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by hal53

No wonder the Americans think we're dumb as a sack of hammers!!!...because we are. The tail is wagging the dog here with APOS. Say what you like about Morton as the SRD Minister, he started this crap!!!....the only good thing he did was open Sunday hunting, which I now believe was a clever ploy to keep us redneck Albertans happy, while his American buddies can move in and rape our resources!!!

Originally Posted by Rocky7

He did?
...........

APOS was in existence far before Morton was elected as an MLA. It was established as a DAO back in 1997. The precursor organization was the POAA, which did not have DAO status. POAA first came into existence in the late 1980's.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by avb3

APOS was in existence far before Morton was elected as an MLA. It was established as a DAO back in 1997. The precursor organization was the POAA, which did not have DAO status. POAA first came into existence in the late 1980's.

oh....okay........?? don't really care about their early history, my concerns is the perceived power they wield now....and that didn't come from the '90's.....

[elkhunter11]

Just considering some facts:

1-Only Alberta residents can hold big game outfitter allocations.

2-An Alberta resident can't use an outfitter allocation to hunt in Alberta.

To me that seems to be an attempt to prevent corruption, as in an Alberta resident outfitter using allocations for himself, family, or friends to hunt certain species every year while other Alberta residents have to wait years to draw certain tags. Now you have an American using an Alberta resident's name to purchase allocations. That American, and his family and friends, can now use the allocations that he purchased to hunt big game in Alberta. In effect, we are providing non residents with opportunities that no Albertan can enjoy. Something is very wrong when we put non residents ahead of Albertans.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just considering some facts:

1-Only Alberta residents can hold big game outfitter allocations.

2-An Alberta resident can't use an outfitter allocation to hunt in Alberta.

To me that seems to be an attempt to prevent corruption, as in an Alberta resident outfitter using allocations for himself, family, or friends to hunt certain species every year while other Alberta residents have to wait years to draw certain tags. Now you have an American using an Alberta resident's name to purchase allocations. That American, and his family and friends, can now use the allocations that he purchased to hunt big game in Alberta. In effect, we are providing non residents with opportunities that no Albertan can enjoy. Something is very wrong when we put non residents ahead of Albertans.

...and that is the point!!...Good Post!!!!!!!!!!

[gitrdun]

I remember an evening around the campfire not that long ago when an outfitter outta Black Diamond rode into our camp and basically demanded that "we" meaning four of us, ought to ride out and hunt on the other side 'cause we were screwing up his client from Pittsburgh. Your guess as to how the rest of the story transpired. Why in the heck should our southern friends be allowed to hunt these parts when I can't even purchase items from Brownell's or Sinclair is beyond me.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by hal53

oh....okay........?? don't really care about their early history, my concerns is the seemong power they wield now....and that didn't come from the '90's.....

They are operating under the same DAO regulation now as when first established.

My huge beef with them is that although APOS has the power to take away an outfitters allocations for malfeasance through their disciplinary committee, to my knowledge they never have.

Including those that have been convicted of wildlife offences while operating as an outfitter, some numerous times. Some outfitters have even done jail time for wildlife offences, and APOS still thinks it is OK to have those types as operators.

[gitrdun]

So, this Chad Lenz character is the new Mantracker? ????? nice way to get things started eh,

[hal53]

Originally Posted by avb3

They are operating under the same DAO regulation now as when first established.

My huge beef with them is that although APOS has the power to take away an outfitters allocations for malfeasance through their disciplinary committee, to my knowledge they never have.

Including those that have been convicted of wildlife offences while operating as an outfitter, some numerous times. Some outfitters have even done jail time for wildlife offences, and APOS still thinks it is OK to have those types as operators.

So their "initial vision" was right, but now how they use it is wrong???...agreed. E-mail and ask them about the convicted poachers they endorse...you get curt, 2 line prepared responses, most starting with " I have no idea what you're talking about".,,, a reporter tried doing an investigative story on them , as they hadn't complied with any financial reporting etc. to the Gov't. as required by law....guess where he met the dead end???...Yup the Gov't.!!!!. I might as well e-mail my Cocker Spaniel as try to get a straight answer out of APOS!!

[New Hunter Okotoks]

[QUOTE=gitrdun;1485869]I remember an evening around the campfire not that long ago when an outfitter outta Black Diamond rode into our camp and basically demanded that "we" meaning four of us, ought to ride out and hunt on the other side 'cause we were screwing up his client from Pittsburgh. Your guess as to how the rest of the story transpired.QUOTE]

I'm guessing that you told the outfitter to head east of the #2 HWY with his Pittsburg Client to hunt for Sheep and Elk. "It's way better over there; less foot traffic and nobody will get in your way over there." LOL!!

I think I got this scenario down, tell me if I'm right.

This American Investor thought he had a great idea and needed an Alberta Connection with a Guide License. It was all Kosher but he did not receive payment from Chad quick enough after the hunting season for his liking. So then he dicided that he did not want Chad to have the rights anymore and thought that he would just sell them. Ooops!! They're not his, they belong to Chad Lenz. He tied Chad up in court so that nobody could use the tags; including hunters who already had trips booked through Chad Lenz. Chad lost out on that revenue (and so did the investor)

Does this basically boil down to an American Investor selling something that he put in a Candian's name without telling the Canadian?

[outdoorsmen101]

Originally Posted by gunslinger

No your just looking at it the other way rocky. Let me try to explain.

Morgan lent chad the money , Chad bought the tags. Chad owns the tags.

Chad was late on a payment so morgan had a fit and wanted out of the agreement and wanted frank to have the tags. Chitshow started and Chad lost a year of hunting becasue of paperwork.

Chad owes morgan 105000$ because thats what he lent Chad and thats what chad payed for the tags to own them.

Chad wants his 60000$ that he didnt get by not having hunters that year.

Blah Blah Blah back and forth, Morgan sues, Chad sues and now the courts are goign to tell chad to pay the 105000$ back to morgan and im guessing Chad is going to have to suck up the year lost in hunters unless the judge splits that and makes chad only pay back 70000$.

Its simply a hunting deal that turned sour like 10 out of 11 due when you have partners in this business.

No american will ever own the sheep tags and no american has ever owned alberta sheep tags, so that simply isnt even in the equation

Well Lenz sold his quarter section for gravel to Clearwater County for 700,000.00 bucks.. Tough times eh Gunslinger....pay the guy what he owes and move on. he tried to scam him and it obviously not sitting well. Tells you the character of Lenz. His reputation around here preceeds him.

[outdoorsmen101]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

The bottom line for me is that the American cannot own hunting permits for Alberta bighorns or any Alberta game. If outfitters constructed any deal to "get around" that prohibition, they deserve sanction. That includes the outfitter who fronted his name for the American and the second outfitter who dealt with the American to acquire Alberta permits.

I don't see why it matters that they called it a "lease" or a "contract" or a "trust" or anything else. It's shady and it's probably illegal.

For .02, I'd say we trade a good part of the "subsistence" treaty hunting - which we all know has had little or nothing whatsoever to do with subsistence for at least 50 years for any reserve south of 60 - and give the bands these permits for their own use or for sale or for outfitting or whatever. Besides, an American would get a big kick out of hunting sheep with someone like WB for big money. (no offence, pardner....just sayin'). I think there might be some merit in thinking about it, anyway.

Ask Lorne Hindbo who he sold out to..LOL...

[outdoorsmen101]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I suspect he's hoping to win the case so they can be transfered to another Class S outfitter. This is hardly new ground. Seems there are one or two of these cases in western Canada each year. I'd say 80+ percent of the high dollar tags/areas bought in the past 15 years or so in western Canada have some sort of American investment.

Bryan Martin was sucessful in doing it in BC. even after a bunch of wildlife infractions.

[Mb-MBR]

Am I understanding this right, that residents of Alberta cannot hunt bighorn sheep but outfitters receive allocations that they can market to non residents?

[gitrdun]

Well NHO, not quite that way, but close. As it happens, the "hunter" was an author for one of the hunting mags that we often see in our magazine racks. The guide never did tell me who he was, but he did tell me which "rag" it was that he authored articles for. As a follow up, I will tell you that I was glassing the ridge across Rock Creek,. The very next morning, I cam upon the outfitter again. He decidedly agreed as we were glassing the sheep that my group had worked much harder, his "client" was sleeping on the hillside waiting for his call to a decent shot. Anyhow, if you live in this neck of the woods, I know that you likely know whom I may be speaking of in the BD area

[FCLightning]

Welcome to Alberta.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by New Hunter Okotoks

This American Investor thought he had a great idea and needed an Alberta Connection with a Guide License. It was all Kosher but he did not receive payment from Chad quick enough after the hunting season for his liking. So then he dicided that he did not want Chad to have the rights anymore and thought that he would just sell them. Ooops!! They're not his, they belong to Chad Lenz. He tied Chad up in court so that nobody could use the tags; including hunters who already had trips booked through Chad Lenz. Chad lost out on that revenue (and so did the investor)

Does this basically boil down to an American Investor selling something that he put in a Candian's name without telling the Canadian?

"Investor"? Not in my books. "Fraud" would come closer. Cheat fits, too. Shyster....maybe. As for his outfitter friends/connections - same thing.

In understanding this, it would help to remember that "Bighorn Sheep" and "Alberta" are synonyms. Alberta has more Top 10 Record Book heads than anywhere else - by a long shot.

What did that Yank pay for the Minister's permit to hunt off-season and shoot the new World Record up around Cadomin a few years ago? $250,000.00.

He also hired 3 guides to scope it out for weeks before he arrived.

A little while later he was back and got another huge Ram.

That one American spent, what, $400,000.00, to get those two Rams? Give or take.

It's about money. It's always about money. Like Elkhunter11 said, it's also about foreign money doing what even Albertans cannot do - getting tags for friends and family for money. It's all wrong.

For me, it's not about money. It's about the stink.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

"Investor"? Not in my books. "Fraud" would come closer. Cheat fits, too. Shyster....maybe. As for his outfitter friends/connections - same thing.

In understanding this, it would help to remember that "Bighorn Sheep" and "Alberta" are synonyms. Alberta has more Top 10 Record Book heads than anywhere else - by a long shot.

What did that Yank pay for the Minister's permit to hunt off-season and shoot the new World Record up around Cadomin a few years ago? $250,000.00.

He also hired 3 guides to scope it out for weeks before he arrived.

A little while later he was back and got another huge Ram.

That one American spent, what, $400,000.00, to get those two Rams? Give or take.

It's about money. It's always about money. Like Elkhunter11 said, it's also about foreign money doing what even Albertans cannot do - getting tags for friends and family for money. It's all wrong.

For me, it's not about money. It's about the stink.

I have no problem with the Minister's hunt. It's one tag, and most of the money goes to enhance wildlife here in Alberta. Albertan's can buy a raffle ticket for the same out of season opportunity.

Now, getting APOS to cancel outfitters allocations when needed is a band wagon I can jump on to.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by avb3

I have no problem with the Minister's hunt. It's one tag, and most of the money goes to enhance wildlife here in Alberta. Albertan's can buy a raffle ticket for the same out of season opportunity.

Now, getting APOS to cancel outfitters allocations when needed is a band wagon I can jump on to.

Good Point!!!...but it won't happen.....

[huntin]

Originally Posted by ringo

I've lived in the area and this is not the first I've heard about shady actions by mr lenz. I also heard about how one of those great big non typicals on his web site. Was bought from a fellow and he passes it off as one he guided. Just my two bits

Let's see the so called deer that you claim he didn't guide for. I know the one he bought it had sat out side for over 10 years it grosses just over 200 and he had it mounted with his cat. It was white and very weather damaged when he got it.

[huntin]

Originally Posted by outdoorsmen101

Ask Lorne Hindbo who he sold out to..LOL...

Darcy is that you

[huntin]

Originally Posted by outdoorsmen101

Well Lenz sold his quarter section for gravel to Clearwater County for 700,000.00 bucks.. Tough times eh Gunslinger....pay the guy what he owes and move on. he tried to scam him and it obviously not sitting well. Tells you the character of Lenz. His reputation around here preceeds him.

It wasn't sold to the county and it wasn't a lump sum get your facts straight if you want to run a guy down