Outfitter Illegally Sold Bighorn Sheep Permits to an American? - Page 5

hal53 · #**121** 06-20-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Ever hear of a timber company paying royalties?
If you want to compare it to oil/gas, outfitter tags were at one time purchased from the province, oil/gas is also purchased from the province, only they make payments (royalties)

key part "at one time"

Rocky7 · #**122** 06-20-2012, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

The intangibles hunting gives to the residents of this province is far too great to compare it to someone providing financial returns for a non resident.

That's true, but even without the intangibles......

Have a look in my garage and basement and the garages, sheds and basements of all the hunters in Alberta. You'd find a billion dollars worth of hunting stuff, easy. Then add in the money that all those hunters spend in Alberta every year to support their hobby/habit/passion - hundreds of millions. Every year.

Rocky7 · #**123** 06-20-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainTi

And how is it different from minerals? timber? oil/gas? Are those not all resources owned by the province?

Personally, I can't remember the last time I applied to open a mine and was turned down and told I needed to stand in line for years.

How about you? Can you name a single Alberta oil company that was denied a permit to drill while an American company was allowed to buy up some permits to turn around and "lease" out?

Its a whacky comparison. Just because one is called a "resource" does not mean it is equivalent to the same processes and considerations as for black liquid and rocks.

Deer Hunter · #**124** 06-20-2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Ever hear of a timber company paying royalties?
If you want to compare it to oil/gas, outfitter tags were at one time purchased from the province, oil/gas is also purchased from the province, only they make payments (royalties)

There isnt a ten year wait for a resident to cut down a tree in Alberta. And FMA holders have the responsibility to manage, file govt reports and replant the resource. In short they are heavily scrutinized on a resource that isnt in high local demand.

And the government can ammend or recind the oil and gas leases due to illegal activity, trespass or lack of production. Oil and gas is heavily regulated to insure things stay on the up and up, and is being continously re-visited to meet the needs of residents.

MountainTi · #**125** 06-20-2012, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal53

key part "at one time"

payments are preferred?

MountainTi · #**126** 06-20-2012, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Personally, I can't remember the last time I applied to open a mine and was turned down and told I needed to stand in line for years.

So you are saying you never applied for a claim? Not following you

How about you? Can you name a single Alberta oil company that was denied a permit to drill while an American company was allowed to buy up some permits to turn around and "lease" out?

Huh? So you are saying american oil companies are given preferential treatment over Alberta owned companies?

Its a whacky comparison. Just because one is called a "resource" does not mean it is equivalent to the same processes and considerations as for black liquid and rocks

yeah okay, you have an opinion on the definition of a "resource"
.

.

hal53 · #**127** 06-20-2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainTi

.

^^^^ uh......WOW!!!!!!

MountainTi · #**128** 06-20-2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

There isnt a ten year wait for a resident to cut down a tree in Alberta. And FMA holders have the responsibility to manage, file govt reports and replant the resource. In short they are heavily scrutinized on a resource that isnt in high local demand.

No, but if you expect to go cut down trees (not talking about firewood) to make a living from, it is going to cost you in the form of having to buy a block or FMA.

And the government can ammend or recind the oil and gas leases due to illegal activity, trespass or lack of production. Oil and gas is heavily regulated to insure things stay on the up and up, and is being continously re-visited to meet the needs of residents

Kinda sounds like the outfitting business, tags can be taken away, heavily regulated to insure things stay on the up and up, and is constantly revisited. Haven't actually heard of many leases being recinded on. And I have never said I don't agree with outfitters tags being seized when need be.

.

.

greylynx · #**129** 06-20-2012, 05:45 PM

Just for interest. How much is a guided hunt in B.C., Sask, Africa.

What percentage of the Alberta hunting population could afford such hunts?

Does someone have some numbers?

MountainTi · #**130** 06-20-2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal53

^^^^ uh......WOW!!!!!!

What's wrong there Hal?
It really is a shame the hunting community cannot stand together a little more than it does, always seems to be a lot of bitterness on this forum towards the few making a living (or partial living) at hunting. Amazing how so many take the first chance they get to jump on and belittle fellow sportsman. I have a hard time believing there have been a couple names thrown around on this thread whom have nothing to do with the OP and the mods have not removed said names.

Now how about back to the original topic now that you have again voice your displeasure outfitters.
So who's name are on the above mentioned sheep tags? The Canadians or Americans? That should tell us who owns them

Deer Hunter · #**131** 06-20-2012, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainTi

.
No, but if you expect to go cut down trees (not talking about firewood) to make a living from, it is going to cost you in the form of having to buy a block or FMA.

Kinda sounds like the outfitting business, tags can be taken away, heavily regulated to insure things stay on the up and up, and is constantly revisited. Haven't actually heard of many leases being recinded on. And I have never said I don't agree with outfitters tags being seized when need be.

you get confused between resident sport hunting and some profiteering business. That again is the root of the problem; thanks for demonstrating it.

As for outfitting being heavily regulated with tags being taken away.... We can all dream!

hal53 · #**132** 06-20-2012, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainTi

What's wrong there Hal?

you might need a taller chair...... some things are going over your head.....I'm done with this thread...

MountainTi · #**133** 06-20-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

you get confused between resident sport hunting and some profiteering business. That again is the root of the problem; thanks for demonstrating it.

And thanks for once again seperating sportsman from one another, you're doing great things there. Way to drive a wedge.

As for outfitting being heavily regulated with tags being taken away.... We can all dream.

Once again, you must have missed it last time I mentioned it, but there are a few bad apples do need tags confiscated.

!

.

MountainTi · #**134** 06-20-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal53

I'm done with this thread...

Rocky7 · #**135** 06-20-2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal53

you might need a taller chair...... some things are going over your head....

You made me spill my coffee.

MountainTi · #**136** 06-20-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky7

You made me spill my coffee.

What's that old saying....Small things amuse narrow minds.....or something to that effect

Deer Hunter · #**137** 06-20-2012, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainTi

.And thanks for once again seperating sportsman from one another, you're doing great things there. Way to drive a wedge.

Good try, the sportsman I hang out with are never in it for the money. Again you have confused "sportsmen" with "businessmen".

elkhunter11 · #**138** 06-20-2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Good try, the sportsman I hang out with are never in it for the money. Again you have confused "sportsman" with "businessmen".

That pretty much sums it up.

FCLightning · #**139** 06-20-2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Good try, the sportsman I hang out with are never in it for the money. Again you have confused "sportsmen" with "businessmen".

Good to see some folks have it right - unlike MountainTi

Rackmastr · #**140** 06-20-2012, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Good try, the sportsman I hang out with are never in it for the money. Again you have confused "sportsmen" with "businessmen".

I know several sportsmen that make a living while being in the outdoors or dealing with the outdoor industry. It would be ignorant to think that there arent good sportsmen out there doing business and enjoying the outdoors while they do make a living at the same time.....

Deer Hunter · #**141** 06-20-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

I know several sportsmen that make a living while being in the outdoors or dealing with the outdoor industry. It would be ignorant to think that there arent good sportsmen out there doing business and enjoying the outdoors while they do make a living at the same time.....

If these people businesses you knew took priority over your ability to enjoy the outdoors, would you excuse your right as a resident so that they could profit?

Sure not all are bad but I think the time has come to put the average joe first. If that is ignorant to you then fine.

Rackmastr · #**142** 06-20-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

If these people businesses you knew took priority over your ability to enjoy the outdoors, would you excuse your right as a resident so that they could profit?

Sure not all are bad but I think the time has come to put the average joe first. If that is ignorant to you then fine.

My comment was in regards to the sportsman vs businessman comment.....there are people that are true sportsmen that happen to make a living in an industry and lifestyle they enjoy. I'm not speaking for outfitters here, but sporstmen who make a living in the outdoors in general. That was all. I do beleive there are people who can be both.....

The bigger topic is outfitting/residents/priority/etc but its not a personal thing that should divide the individual sportsmen. Its much 'bigger' than individuals for the most part I think. Truly anyone should be able to see that a large majority of outfitters get into that industry for their love of the outdoors and their passion for hunting. To cast them as not being 'sportsmen' is a bit specific, when its the 'big picture' that may need changing. I dont personally think the individuals are to blame for following their dreams and having a system in place that allows it.

Be mad at the system, not the individuals (for the most part) is all I'm sayin....

Deer Hunter · #**143** 06-20-2012, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

My comment was in regards to the sportsman vs businessman comment.....there are people that are true sportsmen that happen to make a living in an industry and lifestyle they enjoy. I'm not speaking for outfitters here, but sporstmen who make a living in the outdoors in general. That was all. I do beleive there are people who can be both.....

The bigger topic is outfitting/residents/priority/etc but its not a personal thing that should divide the individual sportsmen. Its much 'bigger' than individuals for the most part I think. Truly anyone should be able to see that a large majority of outfitters get into that industry for their love of the outdoors and their passion for hunting. To cast them as not being 'sportsmen' is a bit specific, when its the 'big picture' that may need changing. I dont personally think the individuals are to blame for following their dreams and having a system in place that allows it.

Be mad at the system, not the individuals (for the most part) is all I'm sayin....

I agree with alot of what you are saying regarding people fitting into both supposid groups. However, businesses arent viable because it's your passion or calling in life. It is because of profit, with any profit often comes some greed, and the current system is being abused at the residents expense.

I know where you are coming from though. If a guy makes a living selling bows out of shop, his business is hunting and so is his passion wrt being a sportsman. He isnt running his business at the expense of the resident hunter regarding resident hunting opportunities though. Thats where the businessman/sportsman thing that your are arguing doesnt apply but that is where i should have been more clear.
thanks for pointing it out.

Rackmastr · #**144** 06-20-2012, 08:18 PM

Yep, I'll agree with a lot of what you're saying too man. There are definitely some problems with the system in place that need to be reviewed a heck of a lot more often. A healthy balance would be great, but I somehow think I may be dreaming.....

elkhunter11 · #**145** 06-20-2012, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Be mad at the system, not the individuals (for the most part) is all I'm sayin...

Correct for the most part, but the system that we have, that gives non residents advantages over Alberta residents, is a result of some greedy individuals.

littlered · #**146** 06-20-2012, 08:31 PM

"Court of Queen’s Bench Justice Bryan Mahoney said Bruce Morgan was the rightful owner of the Bighorn sheep hunting licences and was entitled to have them held by any qualified Alberta guide." Stole this quote out of the newest Calgary Sun article. Sounds like Lenz will be appealing the decision.

Rocky7 · #**147** 06-20-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlered

"Court of Queen’s Bench Justice Bryan Mahoney said Bruce Morgan was the rightful owner of the Bighorn sheep hunting licences and was entitled to have them held by any qualified Alberta guide." Stole this quote out of the newest Calgary Sun article. Sounds like Lenz will be appealing the decision.

I doubt the anybody (except an outfitter) had any inkling that a foreigner could own the indefinite right to hunt Alberta big game, and to sell that right to others for a profit, under our wildlife management laws. Or that Albertans would have to forego their own hunting in order to make room for foreign ownership of the rights to harvest our big game.

This is like the Minister's Permit on steroids. The Minister's Permit seemed ok as a once-a-year big money raiser. I guess it was really a clue as to attitudes and what was really going on but we all missed it. I, for one, never suspected that it was this pervasive.

I hope the news gets out and the SHTF.

pikergolf · #**148** 06-20-2012, 09:21 PM

http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/06/20...unting-permits Well if there was ever a time to start writing letters this would be it, weigh in on non resident hunts too, if your so inclined.

FCLightning · #**149** 06-20-2012, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlered

"Court of Queen’s Bench Justice Bryan Mahoney said Bruce Morgan was the rightful owner of the Bighorn sheep hunting licences and was entitled to have them held by any qualified Alberta guide." Stole this quote out of the newest Calgary Sun article. Sounds like Lenz will be appealing the decision.

Sounds like SRD needs to be appealing the decision.

Rocky7 · #**150** 06-20-2012, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

My comment was in regards to the sportsman vs businessman comment.....there are people that are true sportsmen that happen to make a living in an industry and lifestyle they enjoy.

Nobody has a problem with that. My dad guided for some years. A favourite uncle trapped until he tipped over at 85.

This, from the Herald article, is a horse of a different colour:

Lenz, who lives in Caroline, Alta., said he will appeal the decision, saying it sets a bad precedent in allowing non-residents to control the lucrative hunting allotments.