Reloading: Do the little things matter?

[Pathfinder76]

Some things do matter for consistency. Are they necessary for your hunting rifle? Probably not. Good bullets and a good barrel are needed for good accuracy, but consistency is in good preparation and practice. I believe good brass is necessary, I don’t clean cases, I lube the inside of necks with Hornady 1 shot and don’t brush it out after running them over an expander mandrel, I anneal in a controlled manner after every firing, and I weigh charges on a digital lab grade balance. In addition, I full length resize. Here are five different loads I’ve shot recently while testing. Small sample sizes, but the point is there.
Again, is all this necessary for finding a good hunting load in your rifle? I don’t think so. But it’s fun to make ammo that is consistent and accurate.

I think a chronograph is key to hand loading and I’ve used one and owned several since I was in high school. A long time ago now. Without a doubt, this new Garmin is an absolute game changer in the chronograph market. If you can justify one, go buy it.

[elkhunter11]

I use good brass , keep it trimmed , but I don't anneal after every firing. I rarely clean cases, using my tumbler and steel pins to clean cases for friends who don't look after their cases as well as they could. I use Imperial sizing wax on the outside, and the graphite on case necks. I use Redding dies, and usually bushing dies, and I load with a Chargemaster . I do use a chronograph to make decisions while loading, but I don't use it during every loading session. I use groups to evalute loads, more than I depend on ES and SD, I care more about how a load actually performs, that how it should theoretically perform.

[densa44]

These are the guys to listen to. Now if you want to try for my record of the most stuck cases, ignore Elk's advice of using die wax and graphite.

Maybe they will tell us how thery find the nodes (most accurate loads) for their rifle

Great post..

[catnthehat]

I was taught that consistency is the key to accuracy.
I quit tumbling cases years ago, but I do make sure they are clean , using a Scothbrite pad.

Cat

[Dick284]

You can chase numbers for sure as they are extremely quantifiable, and have their place for sure.

You can buy top end gear, do all the tweaking and tuning as well.

One must also understand that the biggest variable in the accuracy equation is the shooter! That’s right boys and girls all the Gucci this or glitzy that, means very little if the nut behind the bolt is actually the jerk behind the trigger.

What do we need for accuracy in a hunting rifle? It’s neat and cool to anneal, neck turn, use bushing dies and measure powder to the .001 of a grain, heck I’ve been down that road many a time, but the facts are…..

Very few here are into high level competitions, where all the high priced gear and tuning makes a huge difference.

Run what ya like, but at the end of it all, there’s often far less high profile and costly items we can dwell on to bring us better satisfaction.

[Backwoods Runner]

We’ll put dick. Most people cannot out perform the equipment they have in hunting situations.

[fps plus]

3 “B” mechanicals for accuracy
Barrel
Bullet
Bedding

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Dick284

You can chase numbers for sure as they are extremely quantifiable, and have their place for sure.

You can buy top end gear, do all the tweaking and tuning as well.

One must also understand that the biggest variable in the accuracy equation is the shooter! That’s right boys and girls all the Gucci this or glitzy that, means very little if the nut behind the bolt is actually the jerk behind the trigger.

What do we need for accuracy in a hunting rifle? It’s neat and cool to anneal, neck turn, use bushing dies and measure powder to the .001 of a grain, heck I’ve been down that road many a time, but the facts are…..

Very few here are into high level competitions, where all the high priced gear and tuning makes a huge difference.

Run what ya like, but at the end of it all, there’s often far less high profile and costly items we can dwell on to bring us better satisfaction.

I have the gear I have because I shoot a lot. I was at the range last night. I’m back from the range this morning already. All alone I might add. In fact I haven’t seen anyone at the range since September. I can guarantee you that the guys I am not seeing there aren’t annealing cases, aren’t measuring to the .001 of a grain, aren’t shooting $3 brass, don’t use bushings, aren’t trimming their cases to the same length every time, aren’t using a chronograph (in fact in 20 years of going to the range I go to I’ve never seen another chronograph). Most do drive a nicer vehicle and their three months worth of payments will buy most of the “expensive” gear I use for the above steps though.

Now days the most expensive reloading stuff I own are the components. And that is the dead truth.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

I have the gear I have because I shoot a lot. I was at the range last night. I’m back from the range this morning already. All alone I might add. In fact I haven’t seen anyone at the range since September. I can guarantee you that the guys I am not seeing there aren’t annealing cases, aren’t measuring to the .001 of a grain, aren’t shooting $3 brass, don’t use bushings, aren’t trimming their cases to the same length every time, aren’t using a chronograph (in fact in 20 years of going to the range I go to I’ve never seen another chronograph). Most do drive a nicer vehicle and their three months worth of payments will buy most of the “expensive” gear I use for the above steps though.

Now days the most expensive reloading stuff I own are the components. And that is the dead truth.

Our range membership is a bit different than yours, we are busy all winter, and it is quite common to see almost 50% of the shooters using a chronograph on any given day.
Many I know up here as well use the very latest in technology as far as loading componants go, and our range is very up to date on the latest gear as well.
However we still get a large number of shooters who do not shoot regularly, and come out only a few tines in the Fall to shoot their rifles, some of which have not been touched since last hunting season.
Cat

[elkhunter11]

I was a member of three different ranges, and the range of shooters is huge. At one extreme, we have the guys that don't own a chronograph, have no idea how far the bullet is seated from the lands, and that pick the supposed most accurate or fastest load, and don't do any load work up. At the opposite end of tbe spectrum, I have seen people that use premium cases, trimmed to length, sized in a collet die, seated in a competition die, weighed on a high dollar scale, and they do all load selection based on SD and ES. Some of those guys don't even shoot a group. Some shoot with good rests and bags, some do all shooting with a vice or lead sled of some sort. And when you watch them shoot, and see their groups, you may be surprised at the results, the best preparation and gear often produces the best results, but not always. Many shooters read too much, and study too much theory , and don't have enough experience to understand half of what they are reading.

[Pathfinder76]

Dick is absolutely correct when he says you can’t buy skill. But you do have to invest some money and time. But the reality is, these two things cost just about the same.

[Smokinyotes]

Wow a 8 lb jug of R26. You don’t see that everyday. I have all the high tech stuff and can usually shoot some pretty small groups but if I have a load that is normally sub 1/2” and then I get a .7” group it is probably me and not the load.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Wow a 8 lb jug of R26. You don’t see that everyday. I have all the high tech stuff and can usually shoot some pretty small groups but if I have a load that is normally sub 1/2” and then I get a .7” group it is probably me and not the load.

Agreed. Here are shots 27,28, and 29 out of my 8lb 338 WM this morning. I’ll take the 3/4” :-)

[Bushrat]

For the majority of hunters who shoot 90% of their animals under 200 yds they could go out with a magazine full of mismatched brass, mismatched bullets of different weights, loaded with different powder in each case and kill as well as if they had a magazine full of perfect loads taylored to their particular gun that shoots rediculously tiny groups. As long as they can hit a 12 inch pie plate out to 200 yds they are good to go as far as they are concerned.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

For the majority of hunters who shoot 90% of their animals under 200 yds they could go out with a magazine full of mismatched brass, mismatched bullets of different weights, loaded with different powder in each case and kill as well as if they had a magazine full of perfect loads taylored to their particular gun that shoots rediculously tiny groups. As long as they can hit a 12 inch pie plate out to 200 yds they are good to go as far as they are concerned.

100% agree

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

For the majority of hunters who shoot 90% of their animals under 200 yds they could go out with a magazine full of mismatched brass, mismatched bullets of different weights, loaded with different powder in each case and kill as well as if they had a magazine full of perfect loads taylored to their particular gun that shoots rediculously tiny groups. As long as they can hit a 12 inch pie plate out to 200 yds they are good to go as far as they are concerned.

The problem is the people that shoot at paper at 100 yards, or 200 maximum, yet they won't hesitate to shoot at an animal at 400-500.

[Pathfinder76]

Which really isn’t the premise here. The whole idea is that you can do things that make a difference. Am I glad my load has a SD of 6 when I have an opportunity at a 160” WT at 475 practiced yards? It sure is nice.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

Which really isn’t the premise here. The whole idea is that you can do things that make a difference. Am I glad my load has a SD of 6 when I have an opportunity at a 160” WT at 475 practiced yards? It sure is nice.

I do look at the SD and ES out of curiosity, but the truth is, I am concentrating on the groups. If my 500 yd groups are good enough, I really don't worry about the numbers. The same with trajectory, if I know where to hold the hashmark to hit the kill zone at a given yardage, the actual numbers don't matter.
Now if a load groups badly, I will look at the ES and SD
numbers, to see if they indicate an inconsistency, and if it could be due to a component or an issue with my loading.

[32-40win]

Had & have a few hunting guns that'll shoot into .6-1MOA reasonably consistently, have one that shud probably achieve .5-.75 when I get around to it, also have one I'm very happy with 2-3" grps on. I'd say, most guns shud be able to hold 1MOA pretty consistently these days, if the owner does enough shooting with it, even with factory ammo, if you can find enough of a good batch to buy. Critters aren't hard to kill, we tend to make a mountain out of a mole hill and overthink stuff to the nth degree, been known to do a bit of that myself, 99% up to the guy behind the weapon for the most part.

[prarie_boy1]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

Some things do matter for consistency. Are they necessary for your hunting rifle? Probably not. Good bullets and a good barrel are needed for good accuracy, but consistency is in good preparation and practice. I believe good brass is necessary, I don’t clean cases, I lube the inside of necks with Hornady 1 shot and don’t brush it out after running them over an expander mandrel, I anneal in a controlled manner after every firing, and I weigh charges on a digital lab grade balance. In addition, I full length resize. Here are five different loads I’ve shot recently while testing. Small sample sizes, but the point is there.
Again, is all this necessary for finding a good hunting load in your rifle? I don’t think so. But it’s fun to make ammo that is consistent and accurate.

I think a chronograph is key to hand loading and I’ve used one and owned several since I was in high school. A long time ago now. Without a doubt, this new Garmin is an absolute game changer in the chronograph market. If you can justify one, go buy it.
IMG]

Great post out of curiosity what is your preferred method of annealing?

[Pathfinder76]

I use an AMP.

[RickF]

In my experience the annealing every time, and loading straight ammo, are most important.

In two rifles I own which will average under 1/2 moa for 10 shot groups, super consistent powder charges don’t show up as much on target. A tenth up or down is as accurate as weighing to the kernel. In those rifles I throw Varget through a 30 year old RCBS measure, I don’t weigh each charge.

Mind you, those are both 8 1/2 pound all-up silhouette rifles, so I am only shooting groups to 500m/550yds. At longer ranges no doubt minimizing vertical through reduced velocity variation becomes more important.

[wallz]

Thats some great numbers.

I trim when needed, anneal every time, then full size, then tumble, weight with a manual scale and measure every seated bullet.

My 50 round string today was an ES of 32.2, SD of 7.2 with an average of 2950.1 fps. 139 gr scenars, with RL16, Federal 210 match primer, in a 6.5 creed. I have found the S&B brass just as good as the LAPUA, and don't see much different numbers between the two. That one I have not quit figured out yet.

Started at 500m and went out to 1400m. That is with 10 shots, reload magazine, and shoot again, and so on with no barrel cool in between shots. Yea, I run my equipment, and this IBI 26" stainless heavy fluted barrel has been awesome.

I also did get a good five shot group with a new 450 bushmaster load. 290 grain, copper tipped barnes T-EZ Bullet. ES of 14.2 and DS 5.0. My new moose/elk load.

Surprisingly a good 70 round string with 22 lr, RWS ammo. ES of 28.1 and DS of 6.1. Printing some nice groups at 100m.

For me most of my loads were set up before I had a crony, but now I can verify them, and just have another way of tracking things. That said I did recently finally try Retumbo in my 6.5 PRC, and she finally signs again. Moving the 156 gr Berger EOL at 2921 fps in a 22" barrel.

[fps plus]

Many years ago I jumped down this rabbit hole . This is what I found with a rifle that was a known for its accuracy.
Annealing only help with velocity spread but didn’t change accuracy . Of course for long range it would but not short range .

Case prep was a not a big factor .

Of all the things I tried the biggest factor that I found was bullet run-out . Check your run out and not all reloading dies are good at keeping minimum runout .
I found that with certain dies one needed to partially seat the bullet , rotate the case 180 degrees and seat some more.

There is certainly nothing wrong with trying to eliminate as many variables in the process.
And just when you think you have it all figure out???Welcome to reloading and shooting .

[pikergolf]

Depending on how accurate you want to be, it takes attention to detail and money. 1 Moa not to much, 1/4 moa a lot more. Consistency is important as well as a good load development plan. I have a chrony, all I use it for testing my speed after I have developed my load.

Bench rest guys clean their rifles often, PRS guys rarely. Long range guys weigh their powder down to .02 of a grain, bench rest guys to .1. More than 1 type of competitor anneals brass every firing, most bench rest guys never do. A lot of competitors turn necks, one bench rest guy went out and won a big competition just to prove it could be done without turning necks.

Seems we all have our little pet process that we believe makes the difference and puts us over the top.

If your rifle shoots to your standard be happy and enjoy.

[hansol]

For field shooting, none of that stuff matters.

The weak link is (1) the shooter, and (2) wind calls.

ES and SD aren't what cause you to miss.

Benchrest is a different world, and doesn't translate to first-round hits in field conditions at all.

[elkhunter11]

Although 1/2moa accuracy isn't required for the vast majority of big game hunting, it does leave more room for shooter error on the 400-500 yard shots. And for shooting the heads off of ground squirrels at 200 yards the difference between 1/2moa, and moa is significant.

[bat119]

shooting off a rest is much different then off a fence post or leaning against a tree in the field, prone works alright if the grass isn't too high, the .05 MOA only works if the rifle is held steady although the more accurate the better.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bat119

shooting off a rest is much different then off a fence post or leaning against a tree in the field, prone works alright if the grass isn't too high, the .05 MOA only works if the rifle is held steady although the more accurate the better.

I carry a triggersticks tripod, which greatly improves accuracy in the field. .05moa really means nothing in the field, but .5moa is 2-1/2" at 500 yards, and that is significant.

[Pathfinder76]

As we strive for mediocrity we will indeed achieve it.