Lawyer Shoutout & More rights for my fellow hunters

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by JReed

Good for you man, you’ll be remembered by all in Alberta. When its all said and done let me know, we’ll get shirts made up with your face on it. Kinda like the whole Che Guevera thing lol

What a waste of money

Waste of money??
FYI I’m a class 1 driver,it’s not the $120 it’s the 2 demerits that concern me,and the 6 figure job that says I’m unhireable with more then 5 demerits.
FYI again I haven’t an accident nor moving violation nor single demerit in over 20 years,and I drive the biggest trucks on the road under the worst conditions imaginable 120,000-150,000km/year,or to put into perspective,probably 6x more km’s then you drive your Prius bigmouth.
GPPOs are cash grabbing thieves police academy flunkies that are about to get schooled on proper and legal construction zone signage by a dumb log trucker.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by JReed

If you're doing everything by the book, you wouldn't be in court fighting reasonable grounds

That's a special kind of logic.

[boah]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Absolutely not! Once you admit to hunting, the doors and even the panty pack are wide open for review.

Huh? I am saying, if your not hunting there is no need to show a hunting license. If you admit to hunting, then the officer can ask for your license. Same as asking if your shotgun is plugged, only has to be plugged for certain animals. If you get stopped by a c.o. while driving down the highway, why would he ask for your hunting license??

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

Awesome.
I've always wondered about getting stopped.
If I'm diving why should I be stopped and why should I have to show my hunting license?
I'm driving not hunting.

Well if your driving around with scuba gear on I would pull you over too


To the OP....more details maybe if possible from both sides....

[Hill 60 Kid]

I must admit that I am not a big fan of social media and generally play my cards 'close to the vest'. I find that social media (including AO) oftens emboldens behaviours that are really not helpful. There is something about anonymity that doesn't bring the best out in people sometimes.

However having that said, I write this follow up response (like the first) as a public service to my fellow hunter and that you can learn from my mistakes and story.

I consider myself generally an ethical person and hunter and have been hunting for some decades. Not saintly but I support and uphold the laws and recognize the importance of Conservation Officers and the often difficult times they face with hunters who are less than respectful as well as the general legal system that helps protect wildlife, society etc.

Last fall a hunting buddy and I were about 7 kms away from the vehicle on foot. My preference is to hunt in areas where there are fewer people/machines as the wilderness is one of the things I truly enjoy about hunting (but recognize to each their own). I won't tell you about drawing straws as to which direction we each should take to intercept a big WT buck (my hunting buddy invariably chooses poorly). I also won't tell you that while going through this long finger of bush that I came across another fresh (buck) track, basically ran half a km in mid-calf snow to flank it in a field and continued to run after it in a flanking maneuver, as if in a biathlon race before putting it to rest with a 85 yard shot, heart about to explode out of my chest.

So we deboned the nice buck, took the horns and the testicles and took a couple of proud pictures. This was what I had learned from another fellow hunter who had been kind enough to show me around. What I did not do however, was attach the tag. And after 7km of hiking back to the vehicle, late in the evening, I again forgot to attach the tag. After 20 km of walking in the foothills/mtns I was exhausted both mentally and physically.

A few kms from the highway a CO stops the truck my buddy was driving and asks if we got anything. I said yes, we got a nice WT buck and proceeded to show him. It was then I realized I had not put the tag on the buck. My careless mistake. As he looked it over, he said you have not properly attached a tag (yes) and the sex wasn't properly attached. The second point was news to me. I said here's the picture, here's my witness, here are the horns, here are the testicles, here is the meat. That I learned at that moment, was not following the letter of the law, irrespective of the intent. That would be my second mistake. Embarrassed, I said I'm sorry I didn't realize I was in the wrong re: proper attachment to the quarter. I continued to be very cooperative and apologetic. I genuinely was sorry, embarrassed and was beating myself up as veteran hunter for a) not attaching a tag and b) not knowing I was in violation of the law re: attaching the sex. Towards the end of our interaction, the CO said he appreciated my cooperation and that he would 'put in a good word re: leniency'.

Accepting responsibility, I thought well, I will have to pay several hundred dollars in fines, maybe a thousand for my mistakes. Doorknob. Oh well, must learn from it and move on.

Then I find out a few months later that the crown attorney has decided to add another charge to me (making it three) and is asking for $3,000 and 2 years of no hunting.

THIS REALLY ****ED ME OFF.

I had made mistakes, yes. I had owned up to them. Was I trying to 'screw the system'? No. I had been honest, transparent and very cooperative with the CO. I was ready to pay a reasonable fine. I was trying to do the right thing. But I felt like this was kicking someone when they were down, an abuse of power. Although the testicles of the buck were not attached to the quarter, I was trying to fulfill the intent of the law even if not as I learned the letter, of the law (aside from photo evidence, horns etc). I had even told the CO that even though I was personally in some peril, that I supported him/CO's in the often thankless job but important job they have.

So, I retained Greg Dunn to fight against what I perceived as an abuse of power and just unreasonable. Thankfully with Greg's help we mounted a constitutional challenge (as referenced in the first post) as to the legality of randomly stopping a vehicle and were successful.

It was an expensive lesson to learn but in the end, we now have more recognized rights as hunters (that in no way should we abuse). I learned to be more careful and that standing up against 'the man' is something you have to do sometimes to create the society you want to live in.

I hope you learned something useful from my story too.

Cheers.

[IR_mike]

I feel for you but 20+ years ago a neighbor shot a deer drove up to it, cut the throat to bleed it and proceeded to load it without tagging it.

He was being "watched" unbeknownst to him.

I am sure he made a honest mistake as well, but the charge stuck.

I am very sure the first thing to be done when the animal is down is to tag...no exceptions.

[kidd]

After reading your explanation I guess what I am hearing is that you made a couple of wildlife infractions and the guy who is paid by all of us to deal with these infractions was on top of it and dealt with you. I imagine you got off scott free based upon the "traffic stop for no reason?"
I don't know that I follow you on this point you're trying to make.
kidd.

[Curly Bill]

What was the 3rd charge? I think he felt taken advantage of with the 3rd one not the first 2.

[LJalberta]

Thanks for following up!! I appreciate the posts and replies! Always good to know our constitutional rights and how they apply even to hunting! Everyone acting like you faced no consequences to your mistakes has obviously never seen the bill for retaining a lawyer before.

Just as this gentleman faced consequences for his mistakes, so our government must be accountable to the consequences of their mistakes. A violation of our constitutional rights is serious and significant. The consequence of that violation is the charges don't stick in this case. I believe the court got it right.

Ignore the virtue signalling, many of us appreciate your honesty and posts.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Hill 60 Kid

I must admit that I am not a big fan of social media and generally play my cards 'close to the vest'. I find that social media (including AO) oftens emboldens behaviours that are really not helpful. There is something about anonymity that doesn't bring the best out in people sometimes.

However having that said, I write this follow up response (like the first) as a public service to my fellow hunter and that you can learn from my mistakes and story.

I consider myself generally an ethical person and hunter and have been hunting for some decades. Not saintly but I support and uphold the laws and recognize the importance of Conservation Officers and the often difficult times they face with hunters who are less than respectful as well as the general legal system that helps protect wildlife, society etc.

Last fall a hunting buddy and I were about 7 kms away from the vehicle on foot. My preference is to hunt in areas where there are fewer people/machines as the wilderness is one of the things I truly enjoy about hunting (but recognize to each their own). I won't tell you about drawing straws as to which direction we each should take to intercept a big WT buck (my hunting buddy invariably chooses poorly). I also won't tell you that while going through this long finger of bush that I came across another fresh (buck) track, basically ran half a km in mid-calf snow to flank it in a field and continued to run after it in a flanking maneuver, as if in a biathlon race before putting it to rest with a 85 yard shot, heart about to explode out of my chest.

So we deboned the nice buck, took the horns and the testicles and took a couple of proud pictures. This was what I had learned from another fellow hunter who had been kind enough to show me around. What I did not do however, was attach the tag. And after 7km of hiking back to the vehicle, late in the evening, I again forgot to attach the tag. After 20 km of walking in the foothills/mtns I was exhausted both mentally and physically.

A few kms from the highway a CO stops the truck my buddy was driving and asks if we got anything. I said yes, we got a nice WT buck and proceeded to show him. It was then I realized I had not put the tag on the buck. My careless mistake. As he looked it over, he said you have not properly attached a tag (yes) and the sex wasn't properly attached. The second point was news to me. I said here's the picture, here's my witness, here are the horns, here are the testicles, here is the meat. That I learned at that moment, was not following the letter of the law, irrespective of the intent. That would be my second mistake. Embarrassed, I said I'm sorry I didn't realize I was in the wrong re: proper attachment to the quarter. I continued to be very cooperative and apologetic. I genuinely was sorry, embarrassed and was beating myself up as veteran hunter for a) not attaching a tag and b) not knowing I was in violation of the law re: attaching the sex. Towards the end of our interaction, the CO said he appreciated my cooperation and that he would 'put in a good word re: leniency'.

Accepting responsibility, I thought well, I will have to pay several hundred dollars in fines, maybe a thousand for my mistakes. Doorknob. Oh well, must learn from it and move on.

Then I find out a few months later that the crown attorney has decided to add another charge to me (making it three) and is asking for $3,000 and 2 years of no hunting.

THIS REALLY ****ED ME OFF.

I had made mistakes, yes. I had owned up to them. Was I trying to 'screw the system'? No. I had been honest, transparent and very cooperative with the CO. I was ready to pay a reasonable fine. I was trying to do the right thing. But I felt like this was kicking someone when they were down, an abuse of power. Although the testicles of the buck were not attached to the quarter, I was trying to fulfill the intent of the law even if not as I learned the letter, of the law (aside from photo evidence, horns etc). I had even told the CO that even though I was personally in some peril, that I supported him/CO's in the often thankless job but important job they have.

So, I retained Greg Dunn to fight against what I perceived as an abuse of power and just unreasonable. Thankfully with Greg's help we mounted a constitutional challenge (as referenced in the first post) as to the legality of randomly stopping a vehicle and were successful.

It was an expensive lesson to learn but in the end, we now have more recognized rights as hunters (that in no way should we abuse). I learned to be more careful and that standing up against 'the man' is something you have to do sometimes to create the society you want to live in.

I hope you learned something useful from my story too.

Cheers.

Not sure how you owned up to it, you got away from a poaching charge when you admitted you did it. I'll leave the back slapping to others.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Hill 60 Kid

So, I retained Greg Dunn to fight against what I perceived as an abuse of power and just unreasonable. Thankfully with Greg's help we mounted a constitutional challenge (as referenced in the first post) as to the legality of randomly stopping a vehicle and were successful.

It was an expensive lesson to learn but in the end, we now have more recognized rights as hunters (that in no way should we abuse). I learned to be more careful and that standing up against 'the man' is something you have to do sometimes to create the society you want to live in.

I hope you learned something useful from my story too.

Cheers.

Thanks Hill,

To be forthright, not really.

What us hunters need to know is the details about the successful challenge against random stops.


Our hunting legislation, and lack of precedent in some areas, has emboldened enforcement to push boundaries past what seems reasonable and responsible when valuing personal rights.


I hope to learn just what your challenge accomplished for the protection of individual rights against random stop, unwarranted search and seizures currently enforced against hunters that would never be judicially allowed for other citizens.

It could be fruitful if you/Greg informed AFGA of the case, and CC the Solicitor General, reminding them of the new precedent and its consequences.



--------------


Sorry Boah, that was a tired post, almost incomprehensible to me in review.
The full story can wait for another day.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Not sure how you owned up to it, you got away from a poaching charge when you admitted you did it. I'll leave the back slapping to others.

You live in a rare state....

Forgive me if I don't bow....

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

You live in a rare state....

Forgive me if I don't bow....

I didn't ask you to bow or ask for your approval.

[Jays toyz]

I appreciate your candour. It's certainly unusual for people to put their mistakes out there in the keyboard warrior age.
I offer no opinion on the offense or on fighting it.

[Sportsman]

Originally Posted by Hill 60 Kid

I must admit that I am not a big fan of social media and generally play my cards 'close to the vest'. I find that social media (including AO) oftens emboldens behaviours that are really not helpful. There is something about anonymity that doesn't bring the best out in people sometimes.

However having that said, I write this follow up response (like the first) as a public service to my fellow hunter and that you can learn from my mistakes and story.

I consider myself generally an ethical person and hunter and have been hunting for some decades. Not saintly but I support and uphold the laws and recognize the importance of Conservation Officers and the often difficult times they face with hunters who are less than respectful as well as the general legal system that helps protect wildlife, society etc.

Last fall a hunting buddy and I were about 7 kms away from the vehicle on foot. My preference is to hunt in areas where there are fewer people/machines as the wilderness is one of the things I truly enjoy about hunting (but recognize to each their own). I won't tell you about drawing straws as to which direction we each should take to intercept a big WT buck (my hunting buddy invariably chooses poorly). I also won't tell you that while going through this long finger of bush that I came across another fresh (buck) track, basically ran half a km in mid-calf snow to flank it in a field and continued to run after it in a flanking maneuver, as if in a biathlon race before putting it to rest with a 85 yard shot, heart about to explode out of my chest.

So we deboned the nice buck, took the horns and the testicles and took a couple of proud pictures. This was what I had learned from another fellow hunter who had been kind enough to show me around. What I did not do however, was attach the tag. And after 7km of hiking back to the vehicle, late in the evening, I again forgot to attach the tag. After 20 km of walking in the foothills/mtns I was exhausted both mentally and physically.

A few kms from the highway a CO stops the truck my buddy was driving and asks if we got anything. I said yes, we got a nice WT buck and proceeded to show him. It was then I realized I had not put the tag on the buck. My careless mistake. As he looked it over, he said you have not properly attached a tag (yes) and the sex wasn't properly attached. The second point was news to me. I said here's the picture, here's my witness, here are the horns, here are the testicles, here is the meat. That I learned at that moment, was not following the letter of the law, irrespective of the intent. That would be my second mistake. Embarrassed, I said I'm sorry I didn't realize I was in the wrong re: proper attachment to the quarter. I continued to be very cooperative and apologetic. I genuinely was sorry, embarrassed and was beating myself up as veteran hunter for a) not attaching a tag and b) not knowing I was in violation of the law re: attaching the sex. Towards the end of our interaction, the CO said he appreciated my cooperation and that he would 'put in a good word re: leniency'.

Accepting responsibility, I thought well, I will have to pay several hundred dollars in fines, maybe a thousand for my mistakes. Doorknob. Oh well, must learn from it and move on.

Then I find out a few months later that the crown attorney has decided to add another charge to me (making it three) and is asking for $3,000 and 2 years of no hunting.

THIS REALLY ****ED ME OFF.

I had made mistakes, yes. I had owned up to them. Was I trying to 'screw the system'? No. I had been honest, transparent and very cooperative with the CO. I was ready to pay a reasonable fine. I was trying to do the right thing. But I felt like this was kicking someone when they were down, an abuse of power. Although the testicles of the buck were not attached to the quarter, I was trying to fulfill the intent of the law even if not as I learned the letter, of the law (aside from photo evidence, horns etc). I had even told the CO that even though I was personally in some peril, that I supported him/CO's in the often thankless job but important job they have.

So, I retained Greg Dunn to fight against what I perceived as an abuse of power and just unreasonable. Thankfully with Greg's help we mounted a constitutional challenge (as referenced in the first post) as to the legality of randomly stopping a vehicle and were successful.

It was an expensive lesson to learn but in the end, we now have more recognized rights as hunters (that in no way should we abuse). I learned to be more careful and that standing up against 'the man' is something you have to do sometimes to create the society you want to live in.

I hope you learned something useful from my story too.

Cheers.

Good for you! I cannot stand the blatant abuse of power by ‘some’ of these CO’s . I fully support you challenging being pulled over for no reason. When these donkeys start focusing on conservation and proper wildlife management practices rather than just enforcement this province will be a better place. It’s a complete joke the way our wildlife is mis-managed here. Suffield, Cadomin, wolves, no moose left in the North WMUs, supplemental tags, lease land, parks, grizzly bears, Wilmore, timber, etc etc. The list goes on and on, everyone who works in that department should be canned from the minister down and start over. That’s what any well run private corporation would do, I don’t know why we continue to accept this from civil servants.

[bucksman]

I know of a guide in the peace country who had to write a post on social media admitting what he did was wrong as part of his punishment, thats what this looks like. I may be wrong

[Don_Parsons]

One thing that sounds strange in this matter is, how come they offer hunting regulations, yet some folks have a hard time following the rules of engagement,,, especially with a lot of years of hunting.

Strange indeed.

[MathewsArcher]

Sorry, but in my opinion you deserved a fine of several thousand and a suspension. I think the punishment for Wildlife infractions is to low and applaud the prosecutor for seeking a harsher punishment. The requirements are all covered in the regulations and it was your responsibility to ensure they were met. If they failed to charge everyone who "forgot" to tag their animal many more animals would be going home every season.

That you got off on a technicality is in my opinion unfortunate. What was the third charge you left that one out.

[JDK71]

Tag first look after words to live by

[Wrongside]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Not sure how you owned up to it, you got away from a poaching charge when you admitted you did it. I'll leave the back slapping to others.

Poaching? That's quite the accusation. He admitted to forgetting to tag the animal in a timely manner, not poaching. And that's putting aside the debate around the constitutionality of random stops.

No wonder so many good people don't post here anymore. Post a PSA and the Internet Super Fudds jump down your throat.

[Justfishin73]

Originally Posted by Wrongside

Poaching? That's quite the accusation. He admitted to forgetting to tag the animal in a timely manner, not poaching. And that's putting aside the debate around the constitutionality of random stops.

No wonder so many good people don't post here anymore. Post a PSA and the Internet Super Fudds jump down your throat.

No kidding. Props to OP for admitting to a mistake. Guess all the cracks are from people who have never made a mistake .

Poaching??? Good grief

[Jayhad]

Bravo Sir,
It takes stones to stand up and say "I screwed up."
I hope others take your story to heart and prevent themselves from being tangled up as well.

I had inadvertently done the same thing in the late 90's but didn't get caught.
I put down a large moose and just into the work of processing it and didn't remember the tag until we were loading the quarters into the cooler, my father was the one that noticed and didn't let me forget it. Better him than a CO.

[MathewsArcher]

Just wondered why the OP is getting the benefit of the doubt in regard to tagging the animal? Lots of stories of untagged animals making it home and then the hunter going out again. Deer legs through sliding windows so the animal could be quickly tagged etc. It the officer believed everyone that didn't tag an animal, why have a tag at all? The Op in this case may have forgot to tag the animal but how do we know this is the case?

I know a couple of unsavory individuals who used to carry around set of moose nuts and a rack in case they came across a cow they wanted to shoot. More than one cow I am sure went home with them. Never saw them do it that I could report but that's what they claimed.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Not sure how you owned up to it, you got away from a poaching charge when you admitted you did it. I'll leave the back slapping to others.

He was guilty of violations, but got away with them on a technicality. I see no reason for any congratulations.

[Don_Parsons]

Honorable to admit fault for sure.

Funny that a person wouldn't follow page 41 of the regulations when it comes to doing our due diligence that is a requirement of ethical hunting practices.

"Immediately" after killing a big game animal, the appropriate tags must be affixed and secured and locked the animal as follows.

Not sure why the Albert Government would high light the word IMMEDIATELY.

Probilibly a typo I guess.

[58thecat]

as to the legality of randomly stopping a vehicle and were successful.

You were guilty as you mentioned but got off on a technicality or something like that....CO stops you during hunting season as a spot check which is a good thing from my perspective, catches people doing illegal activities etc....it gets expensive when you forget, imagine how many lines these CO's here in a career.
Owe well,no one is perfect, mistakes are made but when caught you pay the piper....I say keep up the spot checks etc to keep,the honest honest, the dumb in line and the criminals in check.

[Talking moose]

Op said he was fine with the hunting charges. What he was not fine with was being pulled over illegally. Learn to read.

[Joe Black]

Originally Posted by LJalberta

Thanks for following up!! I appreciate the posts and replies! Always good to know our constitutional rights and how they apply even to hunting! Everyone acting like you faced no consequences to your mistakes has obviously never seen the bill for retaining a lawyer before.

Just as this gentleman faced consequences for his mistakes, so our government must be accountable to the consequences of their mistakes. A violation of our constitutional rights is serious and significant. The consequence of that violation is the charges don't stick in this case. I believe the court got it right.

Ignore the virtue signalling, many of us appreciate your honesty and posts.

Bang on. Enforcement knows this is illegal, yet they will do it to "catch a poacher". Traffic cops will get called on this every time if a random stop is made, charges are laid, and a lawyer is involved. At that point they(cops) need to go to court and purger themselves by lying about their "probable cause ". I say make them do it. They know legally they cannot do this.

In similiar discussions about doing whatever it takes to make charges stick, a comment was made that if an enforcement office can't find probable cause, they are not much of an officer. What makes enforcement above the law?

Who is the bigger criminal? Not sure. Both parties broke the law.

And for those that scoff at constitutional(human)rights, you need only remember what occured in Europe during the Second World War.

[Big Sky]

Constitutional rights trump a dead deer, every time.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

He was guilty of violations, but got away with them on a technicality. I see no reason for any congratulations.

A technicality is mispelling his name or a date. What the officer did was an infringement of his rights and not legal. If it were legal, it wouldn’t of been thrown out of court. The end.