Changes To Archery Mule Deer.

Originally Posted by albertadave

Gotcha. It took a minute, but I see it now. Just finished my 14th straight night shift. Brain's a little tired lol.

LOL...I hear ya...burning some midnight oil myself these days.

Originally Posted by duffy4

I think you are missing something in this.

X number of draw tags in a WMU and Y number of deer taken by bow hunters on a general tag.

The number of draw tags is controlable by F&W. However the number of general tags and the success of bow hunters (both of which contribute to increas in harvest) is not controled.

So in order to control harvest all hunters have to go on a controled number of draw tags.

A controlled number of draw tags IS part of mule deer management.

Not necessarily....they could have just kept reducing the number of draw tags to accommodate the increased archery harvest. It truly is just about managing the distribution of the harvest among various user groups...not managing deer numbers.

[Rocks]

I think there will be some increased pressure in the draws as a result of this, especially in the northern zones, there are quite a few guys like me who have never drawn for mule deer, instead utilizing general tags in the non draw zones and some of the zones where archery was general, who will now be applying for a draw.

[pope]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not necessarily....they could have just kept reducing the number of draw tags to accommodate the increased archery harvest. It truly is just about managing the distribution of the harvest among various user groups...not managing deer numbers.

Its a poor attempt to distribute harvest between archery and rifle. Archery success rates are no where near rifle. So lumping archery and rifle in one draw just won't work. Again - this will greatly reduce hunting opportunities in the province.

[sakogreywolf]

As well, I feel that as a result of this there will be more than a few archers that in past would have let certain bucks go, but may not in the future (bow or rifle), due to greatly decreased oppurtunity. Higher success equals reduced tags.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Rocks

I think there will be some increased pressure in the draws as a result of this, especially in the northern zones, there are quite a few guys like me who have never drawn for mule deer, instead utilizing general tags in the non draw zones and some of the zones where archery was general, who will now be applying for a draw.

The other thing this does is start to tie up our draw system....adding people into the fray.

I can guarantee quite a few bow hunters who only hunt with the bow and who used general tags during the archery season have no priority points built up.....now add all those guys into our draw system and in a few years the draw pools for higher priorities will increase wait times for all.....rifle and archery guys.

We saw this occur in the zones where moose went from general archery to draw.....it forces the archery guys to put in for draws where before they never had to.

LC

[KBF]

All I know is if the grizzly season opens backup, they better put that on draw too or us bowhunters are gonna kill to many bears and upset the otherguys.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

The other thing this does is start to tie up our draw system....adding people into the fray.

I can guarantee quite a few bow hunters who only hunt with the bow and who used general tags during the archery season have no priority points built up.....now add all those guys into our draw system and in a few years the draw pools for higher priorities will increase wait times for all.....rifle and archery guys.

We saw this occur in the zones where moose went from general archery to draw.....it forces the archery guys to put in for draws where before they never had to.

LC

You are right, that is the great unknown number. I can't see applicants increasing by 15% but who knows I guess.

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Arguing over math at this juncture is pointless. By negotiating a draw the ABA has approved SRD's proclaimed findings and worse has vetted this entire cocked up process. It is impossible to appeal or complain about an outcome that you were involved in forging.

Why the swipe at the ABA? They've been the primary opposition to this from the start. I understand you were at the last AGMAG meeting, who were you representing and what's your position on the draw?

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not necessarily....they could have just kept reducing the number of draw tags to accommodate the increased archery harvest. It truly is just about managing the distribution of the harvest among various user groups...not managing deer numbers.

Its all about managing deer numbers.

With draw opportunities and open general opportunities the only control of numbers harvested was on the draw side. the general harvest was a wild card.

With ALL HARVEST controled by number of draw permits there is more control on harvest numbers.

F&W is mainly concerned with game population management. The hunters happieness is a secondary concern. They do not care if a mule deer is killed with a gun or a bow or a pick-up. They mainly just want to know the population, the recrutment and the mortality

Originally Posted by duffy4

Its all about managing deer numbers.

With draw opportunities and open general opportunities the only control of numbers harvested was on the draw side. the general harvest was a wild card.

With ALL HARVEST controled by number of draw permits there is more control on harvest numbers.

F&W is mainly concerned with game population management. The hunters happieness is a secondary concern. They do not care if a mule deer is killed with a gun or a bow or a pick-up. They mainly just want to know the population, the recrutment and the mortality

If they don't care how it's killed then why the 15% cap policy for archers? In many cases I'd agree with you Duffy but in this case it has zero to do with managing wildlife and everything to do with managing hunters or more accurate the distribution of harvest among different hunter groups.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

*Whistle*..Maybe they should ban bale/binder twine also as it takes more toll than I did with my mule tag and bow this year...tag will make a nice xmas tree decoration, hanger included...



For the slammers..no im not serious..yes I am joking..lighten up lol

For those who remember back in the three point mule days in Alberta...there were two point deer lying all over...I dont think that is an logical option...

If I see mule draws in any of the CWD zones I am gonna raise as much poo as I can...

The draw system for rifle in any of the CWD monitered zones is all these areas need for healthy herds...or in better words ..quaility herds
there is no need for srchery draws...
JMHO
Neil

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by pope

Its a poor attempt to distribute harvest between archery and rifle. Archery success rates are no where near rifle. So lumping archery and rifle in one draw just won't work. Again - this will greatly reduce hunting opportunities in the province.

Yup.


Consider this everyone:

The percentage of harvest occurring with archery tackle will, without a doubt, drop from >15% to <5%, and I will predict <3% in any zone where this is implemented, unless there is a "Archery Mule Deer" license created.

Does that seem fair to all the "put archery mule deer on draw" guys?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Rocks

Why the swipe at the ABA? They've been the primary opposition to this from the start. I understand you were at the last AGMAG meeting, who were you representing and what's your position on the draw?

And agin ill say I wasn't at AGMAG. I wish I had been. I would have attempted to take SRD to task over the unsubstantiated numbers. I would never have agreed to any draw for archery mule deer.

[pikergolf]

Would make more sense to have a seperate draw for archery, and control the kill that way, rather than throw them in with a general draw, not? That way a lot more of them could participate.

[Jamie]

So, how is all this going to work?
Just md on draw, use what ever tool is legal?

Or wi the Bow guys have their own Draw?

Originally Posted by Jamie

So, how is all this going to work?
Just md on draw, use what ever tool is legal?

Or wi the Bow guys have their own Draw?

Proposal right now is that seasons remain the same but everyone enters the same draw to get a tag. Basically, if you draw you can hunt archery season, rifle season or both. It's the same as elk and moose draws with no general archery season.

[LA_bowhunter]

I find it funny that people are referring to the AFGA as a voice for bowhunters and fighting mule deer being on draw when the Lethbridge Fish and Game was fighting to have archery mule deer eliminated in the zones around Lethbridge (108, 128 and 130) and were successful in reducing our seasons for the last 10 years to just October (recently it was switched back to Sept/Oct in 2010). For this reason, I would never trust my bowhunting priviledges/rights etc to the Alberta FIsh and Game Association and prefer to put my resources behind the Alberta Bowhunters Association.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Jamie

So, how is all this going to work?
Just md on draw, use what ever tool is legal?

Or wi the Bow guys have their own Draw?

Well they want to cut down on the mules taken by archers, so if they want to cut 10% of the mules killed by archers, cut the archers by 10%. If you have 100 archers in a zone and want to cut it by 10% then have a draw for just archers and 90% still get to hunt. Those odds are way better than going into the general mule draw. This would be MD specific.

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Well they want to cut down on the mules taken by archers, so if they want to cut 10% of the mules killed by archers, cut the archers by 10%. If you have 100 archers in a zone and want to cut it by 10% then have a draw for just archers and 90% still get to hunt. Those odds are way better than going into the general mule draw. This would be MD specific.

If archery MD has to go on draw this would be the sensable approach. The current proposal is....unbelievable!

Just curious what people think about a separate draw for archery. Should it work like antelope where you can apply and build priority in both the archery and rifle draws or should you have to choose one or the other, say like bighorn sheep.

As most archers are multi-weapon hunters I suspect I know the answer but a one or the other scenario sure would make drawing an archery tag a breeze. I'm sure it would be a virtual guarantee every year in most zones. What do people think?

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by 209x50

And agin ill say I wasn't at AGMAG. I wish I had been. I would have attempted to take SRD to task over the unsubstantiated numbers. I would never have agreed to any draw for archery mule deer.

Sorry, I thought I had read on here you were going to be attending the Dec 5 meeting, my mistake.

I got a document through our local F&G club yesterday from the area SRD biologist, where they stated since this issue has been brought up, support for this change has not been unanimous on AGMAG, with primarily the ABA opposing it. Sounds like everyone else is OK with it?

If the change was going through anyways it seems the ABA might want to negotiate details of the draw, no?

[Deer Hunter]

I received some numbers on this stuff from a really good source and put together some graphs, even though I tried for accuracy, I did this in a hurry so please go easy if there are errors that you catch. I cannot guarantee the numbers but have an extremely good feel that they are real.
The ** besides the WMU represent the ones that are apparently going on draw for archery mule deer. WMU's that are general for mule deer have no percentage info as the number of resident hunters are unknown. These zones still have many outfitter allocations which are presumably a large percentage, but not shown here.

2011 is being worked on and appears to be much worse from a resident hunters point of view.

Thanks goes to the people who provided me the info.

[LA_bowhunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just curious what people think about a separate draw for archery. Should it work like antelope where you can apply and build priority in both the archery and rifle draws or should you have to choose one or the other, say like bighorn sheep.

As most archers are multi-weapon hunters I suspect I know the answer but a one or the other scenario sure would make drawing an archery tag a breeze. I'm sure it would be a virtual guarantee every year in most zones. What do people think?

I am on the fence on this but I think I would lean more to having to choose, it would help eliminate alot of the weekend warrior bowhunters who fling arrows from the road. A person choosing the archery route would certainly work on their skills if this was their only possibilty to hunt MD. That said though, I would hate to eliminate myself from ever having a rifle tag again.

Deer Hunter....Just so I'm reading the graph right, have you added the two percentages together on the same line?

Say in WMU221 for example are outfitters getting 27% of the tags and landowners are getting 34% of the tags for a total of 61%?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by LA_bowhunter

That said though, I would hate to eliminate myself from ever having a rifle tag again.

X2....would be nice to build priority in several draws just like antelope...

If mule deer HAS TO go on draw....

Right now as it stands you CAN draw an antlerless and an antlered mule deer tag in the same year....if they made it more like Antelope draws, then you could maintain the same harvest numbers (combined buck and doe) and therefore if a person could only hold ONE tag (like it is with antelope and other species) instead of possibly holding 2 tags.....you would spread out opportunity to all hunters to get at least 1 mule deer buck or doe.

LC

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Deer Hunter....Just so I'm reading the graph right, have you added the two percentages together on the same line?

Say in WMU211 for example are outfitters getting 27% of the tags and landowners are getting 34% of the tags for a total of 61%?

Where is WMU 211?

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Where is WMU 211?

Ooops, should put my glasses on....WMU 221

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just curious what people think about a separate draw for archery. Should it work like antelope where you can apply and build priority in both the archery and rifle draws or should you have to choose one or the other, say like bighorn sheep.

As most archers are multi-weapon hunters I suspect I know the answer but a one or the other scenario sure would make drawing an archery tag a breeze. I'm sure it would be a virtual guarantee every year in most zones. What do people think?

I suspect you know the answer as well. I am a 95%er who would prefer to be able to apply for both in a given year, while only able to draw one in a given season. However, unlike antelope, why should you not be able hunt with bow in bow season on years that you hold the rifle draw?

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just curious what people think about a separate draw for archery. Should it work like antelope where you can apply and build priority in both the archery and rifle draws or should you have to choose one or the other, say like bighorn sheep.

As most archers are multi-weapon hunters I suspect I know the answer but a one or the other scenario sure would make drawing an archery tag a breeze. I'm sure it would be a virtual guarantee every year in most zones. What do people think?

I think it will end up being one or the other so I think it's a no brainer for the archers to support building priority in both. It's not like they need to slash numbers, probably a small percent that needs to get cut. Having said that taking away NR tags would probably eliminate for a while, the need for a draw, but eventually the archer pop. will over take the supply again.