Your Idea's, to face lift our current Draw System

[slough shark]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

X2....a WIN card is issued and good for 5 years, is there a requirement to inform AlbertaRELM of you move out if province and cease to be a resident???

I think not....people have been putting in for our Alberta draws as residents fraudulently for many years....

Focus on these things and not eliminating the 999 option IMHO.

LC

exactly hence my idea about proving residence with a second valid ALBERTA ID for entering

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

No one is going to pay attention to a guy wearing a lacy Leafs jumpsuit holding a crossgun.

Is that what's in his hands..lol.::

[hal53]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Is that what's in his hands...::

must admit, I hadn't noticed the cross BOW....

[Stewie]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Gentlemen

Post #1

Thought #1 (a)

Haha thanks Potty, my bad...

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I know when you apply for the first time to get a WIN card there is only an "honor" system check box to fill out....

LC

Correct. Proof of a previous hunting licence or completion of a hunters Ed course wouldn't be a bad idea at all for both residents and NR alike.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I know when you apply for the first time to get a WIN card there is only an "honor" system check box to fill out....

LC

It is legal to apply for the draw and draw a licence without being eligible to hunt.

It is Illegal to Purchase the licence without being qualified to hunt.

Thus part of the reasoning behind Potty's suggestion #1 and my version, suggestion #11 on post #24.

This change Would eliminate people that are not eligible big game hunters from applying in the draw system. Such as the niece that hates hunting.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

It is legal to apply for the draw and draw a licence without being eligible to hunt.

It is Illegal to Purchase the licence without being qualified to hunt.

Thus part of the reasoning behind Potty's suggestion #1 and my version, suggestion #11 on post #24.

This change Would eliminate people that are not eligible big game hunters from applying in the draw system. Such as the niece that hates hunting.

Can you say IBM cash grab??????My FIL and MIL moved here 5-6 years ago from BC, he had his WIN card, because he hunted birds out here every year, he got the MIL a WIN card when they got here and wanted me to enter them in the draws!!! (he's worse on a computer than I am). I refused, he is still mad at me over it, he had no intention of hunting Big Game, and she had never had a hunting license in her life...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

It is legal to apply for the draw and draw a licence without being eligible to hunt.

It is Illegal to Purchase the licence without being qualified to hunt.

Thus part of the reasoning behind Potty's suggestion #1 and my version, suggestion #11 on post #24.

This change Would eliminate people that are not eligible big game hunters from applying in the draw system. Such as the niece that hates hunting.

Has anyone ever been caught and charged for not being eligible/qualified to purchase a hunting license?

One of the criteria is to have held a hunting license prior no matter where it was...

LC

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Be nice if we can start just adding tags. Allot of problem could be resolved. Try 420. 5 draw tags. Non seperated between archery and rifle right now. So 5 tags complete. If I remember right it has 1 maybe 2 NR tags. So out of 7 tags how does your system work without just adding tags as they have already figured in success rates and what they want harvested so just adding tags doesn't work into the scenario.

You are able to add low chance of success resident tags (bow and ML) because you are taking away high chance of harvest outfitter tags. The harvest is the same, yet the resident opportunity is greatly increased. You are issuing tags yes, but the harvest remains the same. This is part of the solution.

I asked you for a WMU before and you said the 400's. So I did 404. And now you throw out 420. Is this going to be a wild goose chase before you actually understand what I am trying to get at?

2012 stats
WMU 420 Antlered Moose
Current:
5 drawn from 102 applicants with 9 outfitter tags (4-B and 5-O).
This is not from my memory but from the actual information.
probably expect 12 moose harvested from above tags(??)
P9's and above being drawn.

Proposed:
10 resident archery draw tags
6 resident muzzle loader draw tags
8 resident rifle draw tags
0 outfitter tags
to come up with a similar harvest to what is occurring now.

10 archery tags at 25% success - 3 harvest
6 muzzleloader tags at 50% success -3 harvest
8 rifle tags at 75% success - 6 harvest
gives 12 expected harvest, but yet this has drawn 24 residents from the draw pool versus the 5 before. The harvest remains the same.
Over a 400% increase in resident tags given out. This will lower the wait but it takes eliminating the outfitter allocations and adding low harvest chance resident draws like archery or muzzleloading.
Understand where I am coming from?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Has anyone ever been caught and charged for not being eligible/qualified to purchase a hunting license?

One of the criteria is to have held a hunting license prior no matter where it was...

LC

Yes. But usually associated with other poaching infractions. Great White Holdings Outfitters became quite famous for doing this.

Supposely ESRD is working on vetting the WIN cards now and have cleaned some of it up. I don't know of anyone being charged only for having obtained a fraudulent WIN card.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Yes. But usually associated with other poaching infractions. Great White Holdings Outfitters became quite famous for doing this.

Supposely ESRD is working on vetting the WIN cards now and have cleaned some of it up. I don't know of anyone being charged only for having obtained a fraudulent WIN card.

^wrong, a lifelong Ab. resident buddy of mine, who retired and bought a place on the Island last spring is going to court in Sept. because he applied in the draws last year, never hunted, still had his home here, but someone called, and they charged him, because he had spent more time in BC than in Ab. the previous year...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hal53

^wrong, a lifelong Ab. resident buddy of mine, who retired and bought a place on the Island last spring is going to court in Sept. because he applied in the draws last year, never hunted, still had his home here, but someone called, and they charged him, because he had spent more time in BC than in Ab. the previous year...

As far as I know....the day you arrive here and have a permanent mailing address then you are considered an Alberta Resident....was your friend claiming to be a resident of both Alberta and BC?

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

As far as I know....the day you arrive here and have a permanent mailing address then you are considered an Alberta Resident....was your friend claiming to be a resident of both Alberta and BC?

LC

he's born and raised in Alberta, bought a place on the island, had not permanently moved there yet...still owned property here...mind you , it was in the final sales process...

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You are able to add low chance of success resident tags (bow and ML) because you are taking away high chance of harvest outfitter tags. The harvest is the same, yet the resident opportunity is greatly increased. You are issuing tags yes, but the harvest remains the same. This is part of the solution.

I asked you for a WMU before and you said the 400's. So I did 404. And now you throw out 420. Is this going to be a wild goose chase before you actually understand what I am trying to get at?

2012 stats
WMU 420 Antlered Moose
Current:
5 drawn from 102 applicants with 9 outfitter tags (4-B and 5-O).
This is not from my memory but from the actual information.
probably expect 12 moose harvested from above tags(??)
P9's and above being drawn.

Proposed:
10 resident archery draw tags
6 resident muzzle loader draw tags
8 resident rifle draw tags
0 outfitter tags
to come up with a similar harvest to what is occurring now.

10 archery tags at 25% success - 3 harvest
6 muzzleloader tags at 50% success -3 harvest
8 rifle tags at 75% success - 6 harvest
gives 12 expected harvest, but yet this has drawn 24 residents from the draw pool versus the 5 before. The harvest remains the same.
Over a 400% increase in resident tags given out. This will lower the wait but it takes eliminating the outfitter allocations and adding low harvest chance resident draws like archery or muzzleloading.
Understand where I am coming from?

I ask about this zone as I know it well and know the outfitters personally so i was curious the numbers you would show and what you think the success rates are. Of the 5 resident tags last year I know that they only harvested maximum of 3 bulls as I know two tags that were unfilled. I'll have to ask my friend what they have for tags as they have all the rifle tags if I remember correct and I beleive all archery tags are also owned by a guy I know so if there is actually 9 outfitter tags I believe their success is also very minimal as I thought they were only taking 1-2 rifle moose hunters a year. Something to look into for sure.

If they have 9 outfitter tags and 5 resident tags that there is a problem in itself.

Pretty sure that your success numbers are on the high side.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hal53

he's born and raised in Alberta, bought a place on the island, had not permanently moved there yet...still owned property here...mind you , it was in the final sales process...

Seems like a cake and eat it too attempt? Owning property here does not make you a resident....was he claiming residency in BC at the same time?....if so that's a no no.

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Seems like a cake and eat it too attempt? Owning property here does not make you a resident....was he claiming residency in BC at the same time?....if so that's a no no.

LC

sigh.. whatever, but no he wasn't claiming anything, he hadn't decided where his full time permanent address would be yet.....he had just bought a BC non-resident fishing license.....

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I ask about this zone as I know it well and know the outfitters personally so i was curious the numbers you would show and what you think the success rates are. Of the 5 resident tags last year I know that they only harvested maximum of 3 bulls as I know two tags that were unfilled. I'll have to ask my friend what they have for tags as they have all the rifle tags if I remember correct and I beleive all archery tags are also owned by a guy I know so if there is actually 9 outfitter tags I believe their success is also very minimal as I thought they were only taking 1-2 rifle moose hunters a year. Something to look into for sure.

If they have 9 outfitter tags and 5 resident tags that there is a problem in itself.

Pretty sure that your success numbers are on the high side.

SRD doesn't call around to your "personal buddies" when it is deciding how many tags to give out. They may use online harvest info but maybe not. Considering that there were 5 resident tags for 9 outfitter tags, you could argue they aren't using any formulas or data.

I didn't post all that **** for you to critique my success numbers but thanks for that. I did it to show you that by replacing the outfitter allocations with resident tags of low harvest success, you can add significantly to the number of tags available and make a drastic impact on the time you have to wait to get drawn. I hope you see that.

If the outfitting success is so terrible/minimal, why is ERSD directly depriving residents of a chance to hunt 420 moose? There is quite a line up as you know.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by hal53

^wrong, a lifelong Ab. resident buddy of mine, who retired and bought a place on the Island last spring is going to court in Sept. because he applied in the draws last year, never hunted, still had his home here, but someone called, and they charged him, because he had spent more time in BC than in Ab. the previous year...

I'm not sure where I was wrong. "Usually" and "I dont know of any" is my out.

Your example sounds in line with my comment about ESRD getting to work on cleaning up the WIN system.
How do you feel about the charges?

[hal53]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm not sure where I was wrong. "Usually" and "I dont know of any" is my out.

Your example sounds in line with my comment about ESRD getting to work on cleaning up the WIN system.
How do you feel about the charges?

myself?...I think he was in the wrong and told him so, he knew he was in transition and pushed the envelope...but it has nothing to do with the WIN system...sheesh!!!

[Stewie]

Problem is with AHEIA, unless you have recently taken the hunter Ed through them they have no record you have ever taken a hunter Ed course in Alberta... When F&W ran the course no records were transferred over after AHEIA took over... So unless you have a valid WIN you can apply for draws

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Stewie

Problem is with AHEIA, unless you have recently taken the hunter Ed through them they have no record you have ever taken a hunter Ed course in Alberta... When F&W ran the course no records were transferred over after AHEIA took over... So unless you have a valid WIN you can apply for draws

Could be a simple fix. Pre 2013 provide proof of a prior hunting licence. Post 2013 provide proof of a completed hunter ed course. Won't eliminate past abuse but would prevent it moving forward and they'd have to start somewhere.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

SRD doesn't call around to your "personal buddies" when it is deciding how many tags to give out. They may use online harvest info but maybe not. Considering that there were 5 resident tags for 9 outfitter tags, you could argue they aren't using any formulas or data.

I didn't post all that **** for you to critique my success numbers but thanks for that. I did it to show you that by replacing the outfitter allocations with resident tags of low harvest success, you can add significantly to the number of tags available and make a drastic impact on the time you have to wait to get drawn. I hope you see that.

If the outfitting success is so terrible/minimal, why is ERSD directly depriving residents of a chance to hunt 420 moose? There is quite a line up as you know.

Don't care who they called. Was simply stating that I was unaware even after knowing the outfitters that there was 9 outfitters tags. Like I said tbat there if true is a problem in its self. But like I said I'm pretty sure the outfitters aren't taking 8 hunters and will ha e to look into it more.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Don't care who they called. Was simply stating that I was unaware even after knowing the outfitters that there was 9 outfitters tags. Like I said tbat there if true is a problem in its self. But like I said I'm pretty sure the outfitters aren't taking 8 hunters and will ha e to look into it more.

Regardless, do you understand what I am getting at?

[Desert Eagle]

I think that a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth about having to wait to draw tags in some zones as residents. However our draw system is a lot better than many other states/provinces. We all get frustrated when non residents pull tags, and outfitters have allocations. We have to remember the money from their licenses goes into conservation, and it is a lot more than a resident license. Also there is a lot of money pumped into the local communities by having these people come here to hunt. I bet if most of us were owners of small gunshops, small general stores and small gas stations we would not complain so much about putting out these other tags. They are a huge boost to the rural communities. Not to mention all of the money the outfitters spend on equipment, scouting, fuel, etc.

Also I think there should be more money put into game counts to make them as accurate as possible. Some of the zones around here give out WAY to many moose tags, combined with the high population of predators (yes even grizzly bears) our population is dwindling. I'm all in favor of cutting back resident and non resident licenses to half, buit keep the outfitter allocations the same.

No I'm not an outfitter and have never guided, just pointing out the obvious that many city folk can't seem to understand.

[elkhunter11]

I think that a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth about having to wait to draw tags in some zones as residents. However our draw system is a lot better than many other states/provinces. We all get frustrated when non residents pull tags, and outfitters have allocations. We have to remember the money from their licenses goes into conservation, and it is a lot more than a resident license. Also there is a lot of money pumped into the local communities by having these people come here to hunt. I bet if most of us were owners of small gunshops, small general stores and small gas stations we would not complain so much about putting out these other tags. They are a huge boost to the rural communities. Not to mention all of the money the outfitters spend on equipment, scouting, fuel, etc.

Lets start with the license money, how much do you suppose actually goes towards conservation, and how much goes into the governments general revenue?
As far as more money going to local communities, from outfitted hunters, that isn't always true either. Many outfitters buy their equipment and the bulk of their supplies in the larger centers to save money, and the local businesses often don't make much off of the outfitted hunters. I know this to be fact, since I know several outfitters personally, in Alberta, and in other provinces.As well, many resident hunters stay in local hotels, eat at local restaurants,buy fuel locally, and support local businesses. Myself, and my hunting partners, generally travel 6 to 12 hours to hunt, for a week or more at a time, and we likely spend more money at local businesses than the average outfitted hunters do. So the idea that local businesses always benefit more from outfitted hunters, than they do from residents, is certainly not true

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Lets start with the license money, how much do you suppose actually goes towards conservation, and how much goes into the governments general revenue?
As far as more money going to local communities, from outfitted hunters, that isn't always true either. Many outfitters buy their equipment and the bulk of their supplies in the larger centers to save money, and the local businesses often don't make much off of the outfitted hunters. I know this to be fact, since I know several outfitters personally, in Alberta, and in other provinces.As well, many resident hunters stay in local hotels, eat at local restaurants,buy fuel locally, and support local businesses. Myself, and my hunting partners, generally travel 6 to 12 hours to hunt, for a week or more at a time, and we likely spend more money at local businesses than the average outfitted hunters do. So the idea that local businesses always benefit more from outfitted hunters, than they do from residents, is certainly not true

I would disagree, even if the outfitted hunter didn't spend a nickle outside the guided hunt, the outfitter is still presumably local and will re-inject the $$ into the economy. Haven't been on a guided hunt yet where I ddn't drop several hundred locally after hotels, meals, etc...

[elkhunter11]

I would disagree, even if the outfitted hunter didn't spend a nickle outside the guided hunt, the outfitter is still presumably local

Outfitters often live hundreds of kms from some of the areas that they hunt in.

Haven't been on a guided hunt yet where I ddn't drop several hundred locally after hotels, meals, etc...

Which is no different than when I go on a self guided hunt. And I have been on outfitted hunts, where were stayed in a tent camp, and never set foot in any town or village for ten days. The outfitter brought in groceries from many miles away, when he brought me into camp.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Regardless, do you understand what I am getting at?

I see what your saying but even doubling the available "resident" tags still in many areas such as many moose areas still leaves wait times in the 5-8yrs plus now you have to try and get seasons split and get muzzleloader seasons in all zones.

You really haven't don't anything to fix any of the down falls with our draws. There still is a pile of applications that due to fraudulent applications and guys putting in for tags just because.

And I'm not game for there being no non resident tags what so ever.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Outfitters often live hundreds of kms from some of the areas that they hunt in.



Which is no different than when I go on a self guided hunt. And I have been on outfitted hunts, where were stayed in a tent camp, and never set foot in any town or village for ten days. The outfitter brought in groceries from many miles away, when he brought me into camp.

Your dollars spent to that outfitter were partially used for insurance, groceries, fuel, allocation renewals, vehicles, any other supplies and many other things in the host province or state so to say no monies went locally is ludacris!! It's still spent back into the province.

[Smokinyotes]

Not only does the current draw system need to be revamped but srd really needs to look at the numbers of animals in all wmu's. I believe there needs to be some kind of incentive to encourage hunters to shoot every wolf and black bear they see. Predator numbers are out of control. In wmu's where success rates are low they need to close the antler less seasons. Every year I run into hunters that see wolves and bears and they never bother even trying to shoot them. If a hunter was given a cut on his license if he could prove he shot a wolf or bear this may start to help with the predator problem.
Yes the draw system needs to be revised but game management and predator control should be looked at first IMO.