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  #61  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:27 PM
SmokinJoe SmokinJoe is offline
 
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[QUOTE=Squeaker;2702324]Oh I'd be more than pleased to go above MOM and deal with it my self ...Tell me smoking joe why is it whats good for one man isn't good for another ? In my books if one person gets to hunt we all should and should be fair to all I

If it were up to me every animal in this territory would be governed by First Nations, at the end of the day there would be effort in managing them, First Nations people would do anything to protect its culture. Unlike the province who at the end of the day don't give a hoot about its wildlife, nearly gives lip service to avoid confrontation. Further more I would also put every tag on a draw to monitor how many hunts happen in specific zones period. Outfitters would be the next target, they need to understand they have a privilege to conduct business in this territory, it's not their right.

As far as good for one man, well, in an ideal world that would work for a little while. But until you and others can change the way you look at things, not gonna happen
  #62  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Turk View Post
I received this picture earlier today with a message saying that there have been close to 400 head of bull elk harvested on the Suffield base by Saskatchewan First Nations. I had thought about posting earlier but didn't want to ruffle any tail feathers. And then, low and behold, saw this thread.

I did not take this picture and cannot guarantee the story, but it came from a very, very good source.

This doesn't look like subsistence hunting to me. But what do I know.
Find a new pic.
  #63  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:29 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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[QUOTE=SmokinJoe;2702361]
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Originally Posted by Squeaker View Post
Oh I'd be more than pleased to go above MOM and deal with it my self ...Tell me smoking joe why is it whats good for one man isn't good for another ? In my books if one person gets to hunt we all should and should be fair to all I

If it were up to me every animal in this territory would be governed by First Nations, at the end of the day there would be effort in managing them, First Nations people would do anything to protect its culture. Unlike the province who at the end of the day don't give a hoot about its wildlife, nearly gives lip service to avoid confrontation. Further more I would also put every tag on a draw to monitor how many hunts happen in specific zones period. Outfitters would be the next target, they need to understand they have a privilege to conduct business in this territory, it's not their right.

As far as good for one man, well, in an ideal world that would work for a little while. But until you and others can change the way you look at things, not gonna happen
Thankfully, it isn't up to you.

It seems that you want to control how everyone but you and yours hunts, and you appear to think that for some reason, only you are qualified to make those decisions. That is quite the holier than thou attitude you have. As far as changing the way that people look at things, it's not Kurt505 that needs to change. If you want to see who really needs to rethink things, try looking in a mirror.
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  #64  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Turk View Post
I received this picture earlier today with a message saying that there have been close to 400 head of bull elk harvested on the Suffield base by Saskatchewan First Nations. I had thought about posting earlier but didn't want to ruffle any tail feathers. And then, low and behold, saw this thread.

I did not take this picture and cannot guarantee the story, but it came from a very, very good source.

This doesn't look like subsistence hunting to me. But what do I know.
I seen that pic yesterday and the comment with it and yes its very true and no its not subsistence hunting at all ..going out to shoot bulls that are 350+ in size and not shooting one cow elk theres something wrong with it ..Same as when the same groups come down into the mountains to do this so called subsistence Big horn sheep hunt and they drive past all the cows and bull elk moose deer to go deep into snow covered wintering areas and shoot a ram ...I think theres a real issues with how the word subsistence and abuse are used lol ...worst part is they back there word like its an ok deal makes me sick.
  #65  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:36 PM
SmokinJoe SmokinJoe is offline
 
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[QUOTE=elkhunter11;2702363]
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Originally Posted by SmokinJoe View Post

Thankfully, it isn't up to you.

And as far as changing the way that people look at things, it's not Kurt505 that needs to change. If you want to see who really needs to rethink things, try looking in a mirror.
Likewise
  #66  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by george 1979 View Post
The suffield elk are loceted in a cwd zone. So I prezoom that is why the elk are not and cannot be relocated. Currently bioligists are working on a way to test animals saliva for cwd. Currently the only way to test animals for cwd is to kill them and test brain or spinal fluid. So until the bioligists can figure out a way to live test animals for cwd, the suffield elk cannot be transplanted.
They take spinal fluid from humans without killing them and brain tissue as well why can't they take it from animals for testing

Gordon
  #67  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:38 PM
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[QUOTE=elkhunter11;2702363]
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Originally Posted by SmokinJoe View Post

Thankfully, it isn't up to you.

And as far as changing the way that people look at things, it's not Kurt505 that needs to change. If you want to see who really needs to rethink things, try looking in a mirror.
Ya as fairness for everyone to be able to hunt under fair act would be to much to ask hey lol I was born here in Canada I have lived here for 33yrs I should be able to go hunt there to and hey if anyone asks why are you shooting a bull I should be able to say I am just subsistence hunting to feed myself and family ...whats good for the goose is good for the gander isn't it ?
  #68  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gbuss View Post
They take spinal fluid from humans without killing them and brain tissue as well why can't they take it from animals for testing

Gordon
They can they just consider it to expensive and a waste of time its government and to them its not time worthy.
  #69  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gbuss View Post
They take spinal fluid from humans without killing them and brain tissue as well why can't they take it from animals for testing

Gordon
Hard to get them to lay still...they aren't dragging elk into a sterile operating room.

LC
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  #70  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:47 PM
IR_mike IR_mike is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Squeaker View Post

Ya as fairness for everyone to be able to hunt under fair act would be to much to ask hey lol I was born here in Canada I have lived here for 33yrs I should be able to go hunt there to and hey if anyone asks why are you shooting a bull I should be able to say I am just subsistence hunting to feed myself and family ...whats good for the goose is good for the gander isn't it ?
If you can prove economic need you can go to your local F and W office and apply.
  #71  
Old 01-18-2015, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by IR_mike View Post
If you can prove economic need you can go to your local F and W office and apply.
OMG really so shooting 400 bull elk and trophy bull elk is now gonna be considered subsistence hunting hahaha what a joke !! Wheres the ethics in any culture in that ?
  #72  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:01 PM
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Why can't we just be honorable for a change, and live up to our promises, without all the "poor, me too's"?
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  #73  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokinJoe View Post
Find a new pic.
for sure .. there are others as well ..
  #74  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by IR_mike View Post
If you can prove economic need you can go to your local F and W office and apply.
Really?
  #75  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Sashi View Post
Why can't we just be honorable for a change, and live up to our promises, without all the "poor, me too's"?
What promises did you make?
  #76  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by claystone View Post
So cow elk is opened up for non natives at suffield. If Natives went in and took cows as well, non natives would say natives have an unfair advantage. So they go in and take bulls and non natives say they have an unfair advantage. To me there seems to be a population problem that natives have been asked to help stem. One could say natives can't participate but then the elk problem would go on and on. So it should be asked do you want our help or not?
I'm curious to know who asked that bulls be taken and for natives to be the ones doing it ? Everyone , well almost everyone knows that a population of game animals isn't going to be controlled by only taking males in a season . Forget it I won't say what I really wanted to .
  #77  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
Really?
Yup F and W will determine what species and gender you will get permitted for.
  #78  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:09 PM
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First off to my knowledge hunting rights were not "given" to the Natives, it was a negotiation and they were traded for land. For those of you who do not agree with this, maybe all treaties should be cancelled and all land that was "given" by the Natives to the crown, should be returned to them. I will agree this is not a very rational or reasonable suggestion, but neither is cherry picking the treaties and suggesting elimination of a few things that now, a hundred years later you don't like.

How can a comment stating that Natives are killing to much big game, be taken seriously when no one seems to know how much they are "taking" or how many people they are feeding?? I have read the comments about allowing 2 deer and one elk or moose per native family.....once again how big of a native family?.

I have also read about non-native members on here getting moose tags, elk tags and deer and possibly even antelope tags for their whole family in the same year. Husband gets one, wife gets one, a couple sons and a daughter get one, and they all shoot game......but that is ok???????

I have also read comments about Natives not hunting for subsistence, because they have expensive trucks, quads etc. Those same members then boast of making 150-200K, owing quads, 70K trucks, and boats, and hunting and shooing as many animals per year as legally possible. Some are single, or maybe have a wife, but no kids........so they are hunting only because they enjoy it. Needing the meat is so far down the least of priorities of why they hunt, it is not even worth mentioning. I don't really have a problem with that, but do not protest and demean Natives, that for many, shooting and eating wild game is necessary, not for all, but for some.

I also wonder about the comments that Natives should not be able to shoot big bulls. First off bulls are typically 40% larger than cows, so if you are hunting for meat, is this not a logical choice? Also wondering why on other posts, that members suggest that you should not shoot does/cows because they are more important to maintaining a population. This seems to only be a valid comment if your a native............or a landowner. Their justification for stating natives should not be allowed to shoot bulls...........because they want to, so they can put the racks on the wall. Greed and hypocrisy on this one.

Although I may not agree with everything in the treaties, and is there some abuse.... yes, but the deal was made, so honour your word. I have also read on here where a Native group applies to have some land returned to them that was in a treaty, and what are some of the first comments from members on here "They made the deal now live with it"......that saying goes both ways.

The whole native hunting bashing issue on this forum is so typical of many of the hunters on here. If even one little thing has the potential for removing a hunting opportunity for them, be it archers, muzzle loaders, natives, any and all are considered greedy and are criticized constantly. Some of you guys REALLY need to look in a mirror, if you truly want to see what greed looks like.
  #79  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by claystone View Post
So cow elk is opened up for non natives at suffield. If Natives went in and took cows as well, non natives would say natives have an unfair advantage. So they go in and take bulls and non natives say they have an unfair advantage. To me there seems to be a population problem that natives have been asked to help stem. One could say natives can't participate but then the elk problem would go on and on. So it should be asked do you want our help or not?
There is a very good reason that ESRD chose to only give out antlerless tags, that being that it will have the greatest effect in reducing the population. The bottom line is that people that are choosing to take the large trophy bulls instead of killing antlerless elk, aren't really all that interested in helping to reduce the population.

Quote:
I have also read about non-native members on here getting moose tags, elk tags and deer and possibly even antelope tags for their whole family in the same year. Husband gets one, wife gets one, a couple sons and a daughter get one, and they all shoot game......but that is ok???????
Given that every draw tag is taken into account while managing the animal populations, then yes, it is okay. If that family draws three pronghorn tags in one year, then none of those three people is going to be drawing any more pronghorn tags for many years. On the other hand, a subsistence hunter could kill a pronghorn every year, which will have a great deal more effect on the population.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 01-18-2015 at 08:19 PM.
  #80  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:12 PM
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I think the horn should be cut and handed into F&W.

or a 3 point or less for bulls
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  #81  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SmokinJoe View Post
Find a new pic.
Here's a new one, basically the same as was the other picture with the same facts just a different pic.
Attached Images
File Type: png securedownload.png (137.0 KB, 295 views)
  #82  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:35 PM
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Bob, is this you?..
"Idealism increases in direct proportion to ones distance from the problem"
John Galsworthy

Or do you have some skin in the game?
  #83  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:37 PM
bobalong bobalong is offline
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post

Given that every draw tag is taken into account while managing the animal populations, then yes, it is okay. If that family draws three pronghorn tags in one year, then none of those three people is going to be drawing any more pronghorn tags for many years. On the other hand, a subsistence hunter could kill a pronghorn every year, which will have a great deal more effect on the population.

My question was not about a single species, but multi species for a family. Once again why is it ok for a non-native family to shoot a moose, maybe two, and an elk, maybe two or three deer and an antelope, but a Native should only be allowed half or less than that amount?

You have probably cherry picked the most vulnerable big game species of all, and although I don't know, I doubt if Antelope is high on the list if you are hunting for meat, but point taken.
  #84  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:40 PM
wylecoyote wylecoyote is offline
 
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I will only say this. One could argue till they are blue in the face about first nation hunting rights. But you will never change these treaties. Instead I believe we need to encourage native hunters to hunt in a a way that does not abuse the system. I would be the first to call out a non native for abusing the system, ie; putting in draws for non hunting family members, night hunting, baiting, etc. I will also call out a native hunter for abusing their treaty rights and shooting animals only for trophy value beyond reason. We hunt for trophies so they can too, but they should limit that to a single animal. If they want to shoot multiple elk or moose or deer they should stay within reason. Filling half tons with stacks of antlers is not right for any hunter, native or not. If the abuse continues I only see the divide between native and non native hunters growing wider. The answer to this issue lies with all true hunters native and non, providing an example and calling to account those in our hunting spheres that choose to abuse our hunting culture. The greatest reward for a hunter is knowing you have hunted hard and fairly and come away successful.
  #85  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by heretohunt View Post
Bob, is this you?..
"Idealism increases in direct proportion to ones distance from the problem"
John Galsworthy

Or do you have some skin in the game?
I hunt, but other than that, no skin in this game really, just get really tired of the one sided conversations on here with regard to Native hunting. I am not so naïve as to think that the Natives could not be part of the problem, my real problem is that I don't know, no one does. No one seems to have any clue about how much game they are shooting, or for how many people. How can anyone reasonably attack that group without this information????
  #86  
Old 01-18-2015, 08:58 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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My question was not about a single species, but multi species for a family. Once again why is it ok for a non-native family to shoot a moose, maybe two, and an elk, maybe two or three deer and an antelope, but a Native should only be allowed half or less than that amount?
If those same three people that I mentioned earlier drew a moose and an antlerless elk in the same year that they drew the pronghorn tags, then yes, they could kill three animals each that year, but as with the pronghorn, they would not likely be drawing an elk or a moose tag in most wmus for at least a couple of years perhaps several. They also could not shoot a trophy bighorn the next year. As well, every tag that they draw is part of the management system, so if they draw the tag one year, someone else will likely go without that tag. Once again, a subsistence hunter can kill elk, moose, pronghorn, mule deer, and a bighorn sheep every year, which has a much greater effect on the game populations. As well, since they don't have to register most species, their harvests won't be known to ESRD, so they can't be taken into account when it comes to managing our game populations.

Quote:
I am not so naïve as to think that the Natives could not be part of the problem, my real problem is that I don't know, no one does. No one seems to have any clue about how much game they are shooting, or for how many people. How can anyone reasonably attack that group without this information????
And how is anyone ever going to get that information unless they are required to register all kills?




Quote:
I will only say this. One could argue till they are blue in the face about first nation hunting rights. But you will never change these treaties.
You can regulate native hunting, without violating the terms of many treaties. Many treaties contain the phrase below:

Quote:
Her Majesty further agrees with Her said Indians, that they, the said Indians, shall have right to pursue their avocations of hunting and fishing throughout the tract surrendered as hereinbefore described, subject to such regulations as may from time to time be made by Her Government of Her Dominion of Canada, and saving and excepting such tracts as may from time to time be required or taken up for settlement, mining, lumbering or other purposes, by Her said Government of the Dominion of Canada, or by any of the subjects thereof duly authorized therefor by the said Government.
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  #87  
Old 01-18-2015, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bobalong View Post
I hunt, but other than that, no skin in this game really, just get really tired of the one sided conversations on here with regard to Native hunting. I am not so naïve as to think that the Natives could not be part of the problem, my real problem is that I don't know, no one does. No one seems to have any clue about how much game they are shooting, or for how many people. How can anyone reasonably attack that group without this information????
If they needed that much meat supplied to there families then they would be shooting what ever comes in front of them ...I find it very hard to believe that 400hundered mature trophy class bulls were lined up walking single file for them to shoot ..I also find it hard that on that long drive from Saskatchewan to suffield that they didn't pass any other deer moose elk antelope that they could have shot ..they had to come all the way to suffield to shoot elk ...100% proof right there this isn't subsistence hunting ..How much more clear do you need it ?

If you need subsistence hunting to feed your families the first animal you see your gonna shoot ..Not driving hundreds of KM to go shoot a trophy class bull elk.. Does this not make sense ?
  #88  
Old 01-18-2015, 09:08 PM
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There has been and still is talk within FNs to try figure out a way to ensure sustainability of our outdoor resources. I personally have a part in it. Believe it or not the province is next to impossible to work with, conservation is not very high on the priority list, and priority gets lower and lower with the price of oil, different cuts in different sectors
  #89  
Old 01-18-2015, 09:12 PM
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There has been and still is talk within FNs to try figure out a way to ensure sustainability of our outdoor resources. I personally have a part in it. Believe it or not the province is next to impossible to work with,
Based on your previous post about how you would like to see things happen as far as wildlife management in Alberta is concerned, I am quite glad that the province isn't buying into your ideas.
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  #90  
Old 01-18-2015, 09:13 PM
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If they needed that much meat supplied to there families then they would be shooting what ever comes in front of them ...I find it very hard to believe that 400hundered mature trophy class bulls were lined up walking single file for them to shoot ..I also find it hard that on that long drive from Saskatchewan to suffield that they didn't pass any other deer moose elk antelope that they could have shot ..they had to come all the way to suffield to shoot elk ...100% proof right there this isn't subsistence hunting ..How much more clear do you need it ?

If you need subsistence hunting to feed your families the first animal you see your gonna shoot ..Not driving hundreds of KM to go shoot a trophy class bull elk.. Does this not make sense ?
Give it a rest already, there was not a single 400 class bull in that picture, and maybe 2 over 350.... From what I understand that pic was in the check in station, meaning heads were turned over.

What's the difference in going to where a guy usually hunts and driving for 4 days and a couple thousand kilometres and not seeing one or driving 400 and seeing 1000, what would you do? It's not a problem it's a solution
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