Number of Guide/Outfitter Tags Issued

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

No and No.
That being said, priority points should be able to be handed over or inherited by immediate family.

That would be the silliest idea ever. People that don't hunt, or that haven't hunted in many years, and don't intend to hunt again, would be applying for draws just to give the priority to their relatives. All that a person needs to do to apply is to purchase a WIN card, you don't even need to be eligible to hunt.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by hal53

Every person in the province that fishes has a WIN

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That would be the silliest idea ever. People that don't hunt, or that haven't hunted in many years, and don't intend to hunt again, would be applying for draws just to give the priority to their relatives. All that a person needs to do to apply is to purchase a WIN card, you don't even need to be eligible to hunt.

Yes, but to buy a hunting license you need to have the hunting portion attached. New hunters have to take the course. Anyone that applies for draws would need this. Presently they don't need it for applying.
Maybe make it a one time thing???

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Yes, but to buy a hunting license you need to have the hunting portion attached. New hunters have to take the course. Anyone that applies for draws would need this. Presently they don't need it for applying.
Maybe make it a one time thing???

You wouldn't be purchasing the license for them, you would only be giving them your priority.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You wouldn't be purchasing the license for them, you would only be giving them your priority.

Understood, that would have to be changed to needing the hunting portion to apply. and , yes it would be open to abuse, just like a lot of other rules. But, if it was a one time thing for the receiver, he/she would think twice on which priority to use. The 437 trophy sheep or the 110 antlerless mule deer.

[GFY]

Originally Posted by Pikebreath

Yes but most provinces allow some kind of trespass or access fee to be charged if so desired by the landowner.

Saskatchewan is the expectation, but Saskatchewan does allow paid high fence hunt farm hunting of big game,,,

And hunting big game over bait,,,

And an orange and / or white requirement during rifle season,,,

And a preference for family members for Non Res Canadian whitetail tags,,,

And a priority system with limited priority,,,

And generally shorter big game seasons,,,

And more wide spread CWD,,,

And things like earn a buck programs where you have to shoot mule does first to be able to shoot a mule buck,,,

And no afternoon hunting of grey geese until after Oct 15,,,,

Yep,,, things are so done so much better and fairer in Saskatchewan!!!

yep charging to hunt "gamefarms". Yep sounds great
And the reason we have cwd .

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

Understood, that would have to be changed to needing the hunting portion to apply. and , yes it would be open to abuse, just like a lot of other rules. But, if it was a one time thing for the receiver, he/she would think twice on which priority to use. The 437 trophy sheep or the 110 antlerless mule deer.

How about just continue letting people earn their priority points, by waiting their turn in line?

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by deerguy

I need 160 acres of deer plot to grow a big deer?

No, I believe you need to own at least 160 acres to qualify for a landowners tag.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

How about just continue letting people earn their priority points, by waiting their turn in line?

ok, just an idea. Just find it terrible that you can go 2 lifetimes and have zero chance of getting drawn.

[deerguy]

Originally Posted by huntwat

ok, just an idea. Just find it terrible that you can go 2 lifetimes and have zero chance of getting drawn.

This is why I mentioned Antelope and Turkey going on once in a lifetime lottery draw.

I think most people don't quite understand, if you don't have a few priority points already, there are a good number of zones and Animals you will never get to hunt. If we closed the Turkey draw to everyone with less then a priority 3, my great grandchildren would still not have the opportunity to hunt Turkeys in this province by running through everyone with a priority and giving them a tag.

Something needs to, and will be, done to reduce the number of people entering the draws.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

ok, just an idea. Just find it terrible that you can go 2 lifetimes and have zero chance of getting drawn.

I would like to see any tag that mathematically will take more than 20 years to draw, be changed to allow a new hunter at least some chance to draw in his lifetime.However, that really isn't fair to people that have been waiting several years already for one of those tags. Perhaps allot 20% of the tags for those draws to be lottery tags, and leave the rest as priority tags. If it's 20 years or less, then most hunters will draw it in their lifetime., so leave those draws alone for now.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

ok, just an idea. Just find it terrible that you can go 2 lifetimes and have zero chance of getting drawn.

I would like to see any tag that mathematically will take more than 20 years to draw, be changed to allow a new hunter at least some chance to draw in his lifetime.However, that really isn't fair to people that have been waiting several years already for one of those tags. Perhaps allot 20% of the tags for those draws to be lottery tags, and leave the rest as priority tags. If it's 20 years or less, then most hunters will draw it in their lifetime., so leave those draws alone for now. As well, make all lottery tags once in a lifetime.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I would like to see any tag that mathematically will take more than 20 years to draw, be changed to allow a new hunter at least some chance to draw in his lifetime.However, that really isn't fair to people that have been waiting several years already for one of those tags. Perhaps allot 20% of the tags for those draws to be lottery tags, and leave the rest as priority tags. If it's 20 years or less, then most hunters will draw it in their lifetime., so leave those draws alone for now. As well, make all lottery tags once in a lifetime.

They need to restrict the number of Draws you can apply for. Period. That will reduce draw wait times to levels that are reasonable.
The split lottery/priority system is goofy.

But first remove the non res, landowner and outfitter tags on these long wait time draws.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by deerguy

I need 160 acres of deer plot to grow a big deer?

Nope

you do to be eligible for a landowner tag tho

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

How about just continue letting people earn their priority points, by waiting their turn in line?

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I would like to see any tag that mathematically will take more than 20 years to draw, be changed to allow a new hunter at least some chance to draw in his lifetime.However, that really isn't fair to people that have been waiting several years already for one of those tags. Perhaps allot 20% of the tags for those draws to be lottery tags, and leave the rest as priority tags. If it's 20 years or less, then most hunters will draw it in their lifetime., so leave those draws alone for now.

One or the other LOL.
Anyways, lets work on no tags for outfitters from the draw category.
That would be a great start.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by huntwat

One or the other LOL.
Anyways, lets work on no tags for outfitters from the draw category.
That would be a great start.

I am all for waiting in line, but for cases when it mathematically would take over 200 years to draw a tag, you will wait for a lifetime with zero chance of ever drawing. That gives a new hunter no chance of ever drawing a tag, which just doesn't seem right. Even a 1 in 10,000 chance at drawing a lottery tag is better than no chance. But at the same time, you have to consider the person that has already built up 10 years or more of priority.

[rednuck]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

They need to restrict the number of Draws you can apply for. Period. That will reduce draw wait times to levels that are reasonable.
The split lottery/priority system is goofy.

But first remove the non res, landowner and outfitter tags on these long wait time draws.

I have to agree with you on that one, looking at the draw book something like 5 would be a good number.

If hunter numbers continue to grow at the same rate, eventually someone is going to have to think hard about the general whitetail tag. Everyone who didn't get drawn for something probably has one in their pocket. We aren't there yet but could be in the future.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

They need to restrict the number of Draws you can apply for. Period. That will reduce draw wait times to levels that are reasonable.
The split lottery/priority system is goofy.

But first remove the non res, landowner and outfitter tags on these long wait time draws.

Glad to see the message is getting across,,,,,,

Just curious though, what is your definition of a long wait draw time?

[Deer Hunter]

Greater than 5 years

[Pikebreath]

I am not saying we do not need to adjust allocations, but for those of you who want to do away with all non res and outfitter tags, what is your feeling about Alberta residents wanting to hunt in another province, territory, state, country etc?

Let's face it, if you ever want to hunt a species not found in Alberta, you need the opportunity to hunt in other jurisdictions.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Greater than 5 years

So you are okay with leaving non res and landowner allocations in place for those draws with less than a five year wait or less?

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Pikebreath

So you are okay with leaving non res and landowner allocations in place for those draws with less than a five year wait or less?

Are you?

[Deer Hunter]

I have seen wait times go from 2yrs, to 4 yrs, to 10 yrs, to impossible on trophy antelope.
I have not seen one single trophy type draw opportunity become easier to draw. Ever.

So a "long wait time" draw is a moving target. Most trophy draw that arent there already, will get there, eventually.

If your looking for my opinion
Remove all outfitter allocations on any hunt that a resident has to draw
Restrict landowner tags to antler less
Remove the ability to hunter host trophy species, replace it with partner tags.
Restrict the number of draws a resident can apply for

After a few years of this ^^^, review the draws and any left that are mathematically impossible for new hunters, change to once in a lifetime lotto

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Pikebreath

I am not saying we do not need to adjust allocations, but for those of you who want to do away with all non res and outfitter tags, what is your feeling about Alberta residents wanting to hunt in another province, territory, state, country etc?

Let's face it, if you ever want to hunt a species not found in Alberta, you need the opportunity to hunt in other jurisdictions.

What other jurisdictions do is none of my business. But we can learn from them. Some countries have everything wide open for non-res, brings in lots of money for them. Some don't allow any non-res. I have no desire to hunt elsewhere, but that's just me.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Pikebreath

I am not saying we do not need to adjust allocations, but for those of you who want to do away with all non res and outfitter tags, what is your feeling about Alberta residents wanting to hunt in another province, territory, state, country etc?

Let's face it, if you ever want to hunt a species not found in Alberta, you need the opportunity to hunt in other jurisdictions.

I am for giving priority to our resources to Alberta residents, whether other provinces or states, or countries want to allow non residents to hunt in their jurisdiction, is entirely their business. It's not for me to tell them how to manage their resources.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I have seen wait times go from 2yrs, to 4 yrs, to 10 yrs, to impossible on trophy antelope.
I have not seen one single trophy type draw opportunity become easier to draw. Ever.

So a "long wait time" draw is a moving target. Most trophy draw that arent there already, will get there, eventually.

If your looking for my opinion
Remove all outfitter allocations on any hunt that a resident has to draw
Restrict landowner tags to antler less
Remove the ability to hunter host trophy species, replace it with partner tags.
Restrict the number of draws a resident can apply for

After a few years of this ^^^, review the draws and any left that are mathematically impossible for new hunters, change to once in a lifetime lotto

DH,

What would happen to these outfitters in these zones with draws whose livelyhood depends on those allocations that they may have worked years and years to acquire or pay off. what is your opinion on what this group of people with families and lifetimes of investment of time and money etc...Who bought property and built homes and raised their children there because their allocations were in these zones? What is your solution if your method was introduced in the draw zones in Alberta?
Do you think they should be compensated? or how should that work?

I am playing devils advocate here. I hate waiting 12 years for my antelope draw as well. But I am thinking about the families that have outfitted in these zones, and there are tons of them( zones that require draw and families that live off the income of these permits) for years and rely on this income.

Again, not saying I agree at all with how the draw system works in Ab, because it really is a joke, but you seem to have one of the strongest voices here regarding this subject and you seem to have done your research and have remained extremely calm. hence the reason I have directed this toward you so we can look at things from a different angle maybe.. the ripple effect from these methods could and would have devastating effects on many people who call outfitting wha they do for a living.

Does this concern you or no?

[MathewsArcher]

Doesn't concern me greatly and is one of the risks of the business. If the resource can no longer handle the harvest based on resident needs being met first so be it.

Similar to the closure of the commercial fishery, some compensation occurred but not to a significant level. I would expect the same with the outfitter allocations.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Brock1

DH,

What would happen to these outfitters in these zones with draws whose livelyhood depends on those allocations that they may have worked years and years to acquire or pay off. what is your opinion on what this group of people with families and lifetimes of investment of time and money etc...Who bought property and built homes and raised their children there because their allocations were in these zones? What is your solution if your method was introduced in the draw zones in Alberta?
Do you think they should be compensated? or how should that work?

I am playing devils advocate here. I hate waiting 12 years for my antelope draw as well. But I am thinking about the families that have outfitted in these zones, and there are tons of them( zones that require draw and families that live off the income of these permits) for years and rely on this income.

Again, not saying I agree at all with how the draw system works in Ab, because it really is a joke, but you seem to have one of the strongest voices here regarding this subject and you seem to have done your research and have remained extremely calm. hence the reason I have directed this toward you so we can look at things from a different angle maybe.. the ripple effect from these methods could and would have devastating effects on many people who call outfitting wha they do for a living.

Does this concern you or no?

They don't care Broke, none of them do. They will say it's a risk we take going into business, or you've already made enough money off my resource so I don't care what you think.
They don't think of the guides or the cooks or the wranglers, all they care about is themselves.
If I get 100% instead of 90% then I might knock a year off a 10 year wait.

Deerhunter is a prime example. He has no problem going to Zimbabwe and shooting a Leopard. After all he's helping out the locals with all the money he spent. Except all the leopard quota now goes to outfitters that can sell it to wealthy foreigners, the school teacher in Bullawayo now will never be able to afford the hunt that his father could.
But that doesn't matter to him, it's different there, it's not where he lives. But to the school teacher there, it does matter.

Now please don't take this as me thinking we shouldn't hunt abroad, I've been to Africa several times myself. What I do think is we can share and support a 100 year old industry. It's only 10% after all, residents still get 90%.

[Nordegg2]

I think that we should keep all our oil, gas , timber, coal and any other natural resources to ourselves. Then we could become a 3rd world and get refugee status. Maybe move somewhere with a more intelligent population.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Doesn't concern me greatly and is one of the risks of the business. If the resource can no longer handle the harvest based on resident needs being met first so be it.

Similar to the closure of the commercial fishery, some compensation occurred but not to a significant level. I would expect the same with the outfitter allocations.

MA, So you think the wildlife population rates are at risk due to outfitting then, like the commercial fishing did? the resource can no longer handle the harvest..

Ok, so do you think that the commercial fishermen and women in Alberta staked their livelyhood on this commercial fishing then?

just making sure all the members understand your comparison here.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Nordegg2

I think that we should keep all our oil, gas , timber, coal and any other natural resources to ourselves. Then we could become a 3rd world and get refugee status. Maybe move somewhere with a more intelligent population.

thank you for removing the selfish glasses from this thread and being realistic.. this is why I am trying to play the devils advocate here. you obviously have stood back and looked at this from the 50000 foot view, while clearly many are still at ground level and have their tunnel vision goggles firmly strapped to their faces.

and with a bit of sarcasm... Brilliant Nordegg2