Number of Guide/Outfitter Tags Issued

[Deer Hunter]

I expect that if the local hunting demand is excessive, or game populations aren't sufficient, and they don't have room for me, kudos to them. You won't hear me complain. Residents first. Whoever, wherever they are.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I expect that if the local hunting demand is excessive, or game populations aren't sufficient, and they don't have room for me, kudos to them. You won't hear me complain. Residents first. Whoever, wherever they are.

you didn't answer my questions

[Nordegg2]

Happy just to fit in with the crowd. ( with more than a bit of sarcasm ).

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I expect that if the local hunting demand is excessive, or game populations aren't sufficient, and they don't have room for me, kudos to them. You won't hear me complain. Residents first. Whoever, wherever they are.

So you didn't realize when you were in Nuenetsi camp that there wasn't any locals hunting along with you ?
But it doesn't matter now anyway, got your Leopard didn't you.

Kinda like people want to come here and get their Muley, or Moose, or Antelope !

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

So you didn't realize when you were in Nuenetsi camp that there wasn't any locals hunting along with you ?
But it doesn't matter now anyway, got your Leopard didn't you.

Kinda like people want to come here and get their Muley, or Moose, or Antelope !

was just about to ask if any of the " kill the outfitters in Alberta " members have ever been to Africa. you beat me

if they have, comments are regarded as Hypocrisy and no longer valid. unless of course this was solely a hunt to provide a small community in Africa with the source of protein they can't afford as residents. residents of Africa...

[Deer Hunter]

Ive hunted a lot, because I was fortunate to grow up here when there were half as many people as there is today.
Times change. I get it. My best hunting days in this province are behind me. It doesn't bother me not to kill a bunch of deer. I just enjoy getting out as its added so much to my life. It is so much more than money or a business.

The future of hunting is with our children. With the continued loss of opportunity, they have a limited future hunting here. That's a shame.
For outfitters to get with the times, and lose quota, for the sake of our children's opportunity, that I am not sorry for. The resident opportunity has been beaten up at every review, now its time for others to be affected.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Ive hunted a lot, because I was fortunate to grow up here when there were half as many people as there is today.
Times change. I get it. My best hunting days in this province are behind me. It doesn't bother me not to kill a bunch of deer. I just enjoy getting out as its added so much to my life. It is so much more than money or a business.

The future of hunting is with our children. With the continued loss of opportunity, they have a limited future hunting here. That's a shame.
For outfitters to get with the times, and lose quota, for the sake of our children's opportunity, that I am not sorry for. The resident opportunity has been beaten up at every review, now its time for others to be affected.

can you please answer my questions posed to you on the page prior to this one. i really would like to know what you would have the province do if your opinions were implemented to the industry in question. thx.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I have seen wait times go from 2yrs, to 4 yrs, to 10 yrs, to impossible on trophy antelope.
I have not seen one single trophy type draw opportunity become easier to draw. Ever.

So a "long wait time" draw is a moving target. Most trophy draw that arent there already, will get there, eventually.

If your looking for my opinion
Remove all outfitter allocations on any hunt that a resident has to draw
Restrict landowner tags to antler less
Remove the ability to hunter host trophy species, replace it with partner tags.
Restrict the number of draws a resident can apply for

After a few years of this ^^^, review the draws and any left that are mathematically impossible for new hunters, change to once in a lifetime lotto

I have to agree with your assessment of long wait times being a moving target. You have just moved it from 5 years to 0 years for outfitter allocations.

Not that I am a fan of outfitters , but I do not see where this will make much of a statistical difference to resident draw wait times. However, it sure will put a hurt on some resident individuals who have made outfitting their career. How about putting a 5% cap on non res allocations and suspending non res tags when resident tags fall below 100 tags per zone?

Obviously my past posts show my opinion on taking away landowner mule deer buck tags for landowners. I do believe that resident landowners should get some benefit for providing room and board for the queen's deer. Letting landowners only get tags most hunters don't want anyways (antlerless mule deer) is hardly a concession to landowners. Again I do not see how eliminating land owner mule buck tags will significantly shorten resident draw wait times.

That said, I would support a system that gives landowners who live in the zone a better chance of getting drawn every two to three years either through an accelerated priority system or a separate draw rather than the current landowner tag system.

I would like to see priority built up by WMU rather than by draw code. You can still apply for up to three zones each year and build priority in multiple zones. That way we would have much better idea of the real demand for tags in each WMU and when a new hunting season opens in a zone all hunters have equal access to the tags, rather than the just rewarding the 999 priority hoarders.

I would also like to see all resident hunters have the opportunity to have a "local resident zone" or a "favourite zone" for which they have some connection (ie they live in proximity of the zone, or have friends or family who own land in the zone) and be able to get a one point priority boost for that zone. (similar concept to the non res family tags in Sask for whitetails)

Even though I use 999 extensively, I would just as soon get rid of the 999 option or perhaps limit its use to only a couple times per draw. This would eliminate the priority hoarding of multiple special draws, If you have no intention of hunting that year do not apply.

I like your idea of replacing hunter host tags with partner licences.

I also support restricting the number of draw applications a resident can make in any one year. ie, Only one application from antlered mule, antlered whitetail, and camp wainwright,,, one application from the list of elk and moose tags,,, one antelope application etc

[Canukanuk]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

So you didn't realize when you were in Nuenetsi camp that there wasn't any locals hunting along with you ?
But it doesn't matter now anyway, got your Leopard didn't you.

Kinda like people want to come here and get their Muley, or Moose, or Antelope !

Albertans come first then outfitters if there is any surplus and we don't have to draw. Hunting in Africa is mostly high fence shooting not the same as here anyway, there is no comparison. I would like to know how many Africans hunt in Alberta every year.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by Canukanuk

Albertans come first then outfitters if there is any surplus and we don't have to draw. Hunting in Africa is mostly high fence shooting not the same as here anyway, there is no comparison. I would like to know how many Africans hunt in Alberta every year.

huh? what does it matter where they come from?

its not about africans hunting here.

take the time to read the last 10 posts to educate yourself. the africa hunt comments are only regarding hypocrisy. you don't get it.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by Canukanuk

Albertans come first then outfitters if there is any surplus and we don't have to draw. Hunting in Africa is mostly high fence shooting not the same as here anyway, there is no comparison. I would like to know how many Africans hunt in Alberta every year.

And A high fence means what exactly ? when the property is 80,000 acres

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Canukanuk

Albertans come first then outfitters if there is any surplus and we don't have to draw. Hunting in Africa is mostly high fence shooting not the same as here anyway, there is no comparison. I would like to know how many Africans hunt in Alberta every year.

Obviously you are completely ignorant when it comes to the topic of hunting in Africa. Hunting in South Africa is primarily high fenced, Namibia also has a large high fenced industry. In the other 19 or so countries on the African continent that allow hunting it is most certainly not high fenced. Please educate yourself before making comments on topics you know nothing about.

There most certainly is a comparison, I already made it.

I also have regular clients that hunt here, who live South Africa.

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by Brock1

MA, So you think the wildlife population rates are at risk due to outfitting then, like the commercial fishing did? the resource can no longer handle the harvest..

Ok, so do you think that the commercial fishermen and women in Alberta staked their livelyhood on this commercial fishing then?

just making sure all the members understand your comparison here.

I don't think wildlife populations are at risk, nor do I think fish populations were either. I think that the system was designed to provide the resource on a priority basis with FN requirements being met first, then resident opportunity and lastly non-resident opportunity. The resource can no longer meet all those needs based on demand.

According to APOS only a small percentage of outfitters make their entire living outfitting and most have secondary sources of income similar to commercial fishermen, so that comparison could be made.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

I don't think wildlife populations are at risk, nor do I think fish populations were either. I think that the system was designed to provide the resource on a priority basis with FN requirements being met first, then resident opportunity and lastly non-resident opportunity. The resource can no longer meet all those needs based on demand.

According to APOS only a small percentage of outfitters make their entire living outfitting and most have secondary sources of income similar to commercial fishermen, so that comparison could be made.

really, according to APOS? where did you get that information from. please provide it to this discussion . and how would they gage this? really??

and what commercial fisherman in Alberta strictly fished for a living? again please provide appropriate data. you are comparing apples to toe nails

cmon man. are you saying APOs provided you with the info that only a small amount of outfitters do this for a living. i will confirm for you tomorrow if you like or please copy and paste the answer you received form apos for the membership.

[MathewsArcher]

Less than 10% of Alberta’s outfitters rely solely on the income they derive from outfitting; most have at least one other occupation.

From the APOS website -find it yourself, took me about a minute.

I said commercial fisherman were the same - very few made their sole living from the fishery

[huntwat]

If non-res tags stay the same they should be distributed fairly.
Lets use 402 antlered moose as an example. A res has to have at least a 17 priority to get drawn. A non-res needs a 0. Lets have the non-res join the res draw, with a maximum non-res successful rate at 10%. With 11 tags available that leaves 1 tag for non-res.
Now, of course it will take 17 years to get the 17 priority points to gat drawn. In the mean time make that one tag available to residents, but they have to use the outfitter to get it.
Outfitter still has a business and everyone has to wait 17 years.
My beef isn't the amount of tags, or the wait times. My beef is a non-res
gets an opportunity 17 times to my 1 as things stand.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

If non-res tags stay the same they should be distributed fairly.
Lets use 402 antlered moose as an example. A res has to have at least a 17 priority to get drawn. A non-res needs a 0. Lets have the non-res join the res draw, with a maximum non-res successful rate at 10%. With 11 tags available that leaves 1 tag for non-res.
Now, of course it will take 17 years to get the 17 priority points to gat drawn. In the mean time make that one tag available to residents, but they have to use the outfitter to get it.
Outfitter still has a business and everyone has to wait 17 years.
My beef isn't the amount of tags, or the wait times. My beef is a non-res
gets an opportunity 17 times to my 1 as things stand.

So have a non resident apply for a moose hunt for 17 years before he can come ? So in 17 years the outfitter will have one hunter and hopefully he has a list of suckers for the years after, that have all waited 17 years. For a marginal moose zone at best ? Where can I buy into that program 👎

Obviously to strengthen your point you've used the worst draw wait time WMU for moose there is.

[Canukanuk]

Originally Posted by Brock1

huh? what does it matter where they come from?

its not about africans hunting here.

take the time to read the last 10 posts to educate yourself. the africa hunt comments are only regarding hypocrisy. you don't get it.

I get it and I don't think that we owe Africa anything in exchange for going over there, from what I have heard it's not ordinary Africans making the money anyway. I also wonder if they have a chance to hunt? If they want to let other countries hunt fine, I don't want anyone lowering my or any other Albertan's chance to hunt here. High fence hunting is high fence shooting. When my son was over there he had a choice to walk around, shoot from a truck, or a baited blind, and that was bow hunting. Three other acquaintances were the same. All did agree that if you wanted to shoot lots it was a good deal but it wasn't hunting. The one guy shot a female lion because males were too expensive for him. It's about the sickest thing I heard so far. Saskatchewan does the same thing only on a smaller scale. Outfitters aare trouble from white tails in the east to sheep in the west.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

So have a non resident apply for a moose hunt for 17 years before he can come ? So in 17 years the outfitter will have one hunter and hopefully he has a list of suckers for the years after, that have all waited 17 years. For a marginal moose zone at best ? Where can I buy into that program 👎

Obviously to strengthen your point you've used the worst draw wait time WMU for moose there is.

I don't need to strengthen my point at all. I used that zone to make it easier for the slow ones in the class to get the point.
I guess it didn't work.
17 -1
Let me repeat
17-1
Get it?

It's nice that you realize that it takes a "sucker" to use the services of an outfitter.

[Brock1]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

From the APOS website -find it yourself, took me about a minute.

I said commercial fisherman were the same - very few made their sole living from the fishery

my bad.. honestly didn't know they would publish that info. not sure where they got it from

i would bet big dollars that no alberta commercial fisherman has relied on his net catch from an alberta lake for his living tho.. apples to toenails MA...apples to toenails

or as you compare

alberta's outfitting industry to alberta's commercial fishing cough cough. industry

[MathewsArcher]

Brock I never said either made their sole source of living from it that's my point, outfitters have had to diversify to remain viable. Given the changing conditions, more hunters-less game, they should continue to do so. The time has come when resident demand has outstripped the resource availability and allocations should be further reduced as was done in the commercial fishery.
For some species and in some areas this is already the case and allocations have not caught up with today's conditions.

At some point if allocations are not reduced, the government will be taken to task legally for not meeting its own game management objectives.

I believe at least two commercial operations have claimed to have made their living from the commercial fishery and are still challenging the closure and minimal compensation payments through the courts.

[elkhunter11]

Even though I use 999 extensively, I would just as soon get rid of the 999 option or perhaps limit its use to only a couple times per draw. This would eliminate the priority hoarding of multiple special draws, If you have no intention of hunting that year do not apply.

Most people are smart enough to figure out how to build up priority points with no chance of drawing the tag, without using the 999 option. After all, many of us did just that before the 999 option existed.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Most people are smart enough to figure out how to build up priority points with no chance of drawing the tag, without using the 999 option. After all, many of us did just that before the 999 option existed.

Agreed. 999 is the least of the problems. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or even an outfitter to figure out how to boost your priority.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Most people are smart enough to figure out how to build up priority points with no chance of drawing the tag, without using the 999 option. After all, many of us did just that before the 999 option existed.

Many people don't realize how 999 can in certain circumstances actually reduce certain wait times....Every time someone enters 999 it potentially allows another Hunter to get drawn before them.

LC

[waterninja]

You know, I don't see what all the fuss is about. 8 pages and still arguing.
If it aint broke then why fix it, right?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Many people don't realize how 999 can in certain circumstances actually reduce certain wait times....Every time someone enters 999 it potentially allows another Hunter to get drawn before them.

LC

Some people apparently aren't good with math.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

I don't need to strengthen my point at all. I used that zone to make it easier for the slow ones in the class to get the point.
I guess it didn't work.
17 -1
Let me repeat
17-1
Get it?

It's nice that you realize that it takes a "sucker" to use the services of an outfitter.

So why didn't you use a smaller number for everybody to understand ?

Like 5 - 1
Let me repeat
5-1
Get it ?

Or 7-1
Let me repeat
7-1
Get it ?

I said you picked the moose WMU with the longest wait ! Is that not correct ? Can you give me a WMU where a moose tag takes longer to draw ?

And I said it would take a sucker to book a hunt and wait 17 years to hunt a marginal at best zone for moose when he can hunt in 3 other provinces or 70 other WMUs in Alberta with less of a wait if your bone headed plan ever got off the ground. Which thankfully it never will.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by waterninja

You know, I don't see what all the fuss is about. 8 pages and still arguing.
If it aint broke then why fix it, right?

Greed WN, pure greed !

When you have 9 out of 10 balls on the court already and you jump up and down screaming like a whining child for the 10th as well because after all it's my court and you don't live here.

Sad isn't it !

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

So why didn't you use a smaller number for everybody to understand ?

Like 5 - 1
Let me repeat
5-1
Get it ?

Or 7-1
Let me repeat
7-1
Get it ?

I said you picked the moose WMU with the longest wait ! Is that not correct ? Can you give me a WMU where a moose tag takes longer to draw ?

And I said it would take a sucker to book a hunt and wait 17 years to hunt a marginal at best zone for moose when he can hunt in 3 other provinces or 70 other WMUs in Alberta with less of a wait if your bone headed plan ever got off the ground. Which thankfully it never will.

LOL, you still don't get it. And I'm sorry for using bigger numbers than you could understand.
5-1
means 4 more than a res
7-1
means 6 more than a res.
Hopefully outfitters lose all their tags and the non-res WILL go to the other 3 provs or territories.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by huntwat

LOL, you still don't get it. And I'm sorry for using bigger numbers than you could understand.
5-1
means 4 more than a res
7-1
means 6 more than a res.
Hopefully outfitters lose all their tags and the non-res WILL go to the other 3 provs or territories.

So what don't I get ? Please explain it

And you didn't answer my question ? You said you didn't pick a zone with a 17 year wait to strengthen your point. So why did you use the zone with the longest wait in the entire province ? Why didn't you use any other zone ?