Poll, allow .223” diam. bullets for big game?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

And he’s from Alberta also

Yup, my neck of woods. We have shared permissions in the Calgary Bowzone in the past, both having relations with a same landowner. Never ran into each other afield though.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

It's pretty simple, it's because they want to. You don't have to understand it, and after discussing with you extensively over the past few weeks, its most likely you won't ever understand. I don't understand why people feel the need for large bore magnums just to kill deer and elk when I have no problem killing them with pip squeak cartridges, but I don't have to understand, I just have to accept it.

Geez ..and I thought Magpies were bad for crappin' and squaking. Here you are playing tag again.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

It's pretty simple, it's because they want to. You don't have to understand it, and after discussing with you extensively over the past few weeks, its most likely you won't ever understand. I don't understand why people feel the need for large bore magnums just to kill deer and elk when I have no problem killing them with pip squeak cartridges, but I don't have to understand, I just have to accept it.

it is interesting to note that in the last petersen's hunting magazine, Craig Boddington discussed elk cartridges. Says 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5x55 are sound minimal choices adequate to 300 yards. 270 is pretty good, but 308 is better, and boddington and jack o'connor both said 3006 is better than all the others. pretty interesting....

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Geez ..and I thought Magpies were bad for crappin' and squaking. Here you are playing tag again.

I'm impressed you still remember me, you must be having a good day, sadly I'm afraid most likely not good enough for any long term retention.

I just noticed you seemed lost...... again..... so I figured I'd help you out.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

it is interesting to note that in the last petersen's hunting magazine, Craig Boddington discussed elk cartridges. Says 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5x55 are sound minimal choices adequate to 300 yards. 270 is pretty good, but 308 is better, and boddington and jack o'connor both said 3006 is better than all the others. pretty interesting....

Interesting opinions for sure, and well accepted by most, but will likely meet resistance by some of the mini minimalists that lurk among us.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

it is interesting to note that in the last petersen's hunting magazine, Craig Boddington discussed elk cartridges. Says 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5x55 are sound minimal choices adequate to 300 yards. 270 is pretty good, but 308 is better, and boddington and jack o'connor both said 3006 is better than all the others. pretty interesting....

Ya, pretty much what I've been saying all along.

Not too sure I'd put a 308 above a 270, my 280 isn't much different than a 270 and I don't think I'd put a 308 above it?

And are you sure Jack said a 3006 is better than a 270? Never saw that coming, lol.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

it is interesting to note that in the last petersen's hunting magazine, Craig Boddington discussed elk cartridges. Says 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5x55 are sound minimal choices adequate to 300 yards. 270 is pretty good, but 308 is better, and boddington and jack o'connor both said 3006 is better than all the others. pretty interesting....

Be a lot simpler if Craig looked at from an s.d./min impact velocity stand point...he definitely has preferences, he just doesn’t know exactly what they are.

I know if he logged the bulk of his elk kills and reduced them down to s.d. Impact velocity and bullet construction he’d have a window of what he likes. He could do it for class 2 game, dangerous game etc. The cartridge doesn’t kill, the bullets do, at whatever impact velocities. Keeps him writing though to discuss cartridges, look at us fools bickering about them all lol. He must laugh, I think it’s both smart and hilarious.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Ya, pretty much what I've been saying all along.

Not too sure I'd put a 308 above a 270, my 280 isn't much different than a 270 and I don't think I'd put a 308 above it?

And are you sure Jack said a 3006 is better than a 270? Never saw that coming, lol.

... other than you started out with the CM as good to go at 500 or so for Elk. Good to see you've settled down a bit.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

... other than you started out with the CM as good to go at 500 or so for Elk. Good to see you've settled down a bit.

Ah, better go have another look partner, I said elk to 300, deer will get a farther poke.

[Nyksta]

All these arguements about 30 cal vs 6.5 sure makes you wonder about 7mm. Its perfectly in between. That 7mm 160 gr accubond or accubond long range. I still wonder if Ill get a 7mm something some day. I really love my short action shorter barrels with mildish recoil reaching out to 400 meters. Dont know if Id ever need more than that... but then again, my friend has a 7RM and his higher velocity obliterates deer up close.

[marky_mark]

https://sportsafield.com/enough-gun/

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

https://sportsafield.com/enough-gun/

Elephants? African Buffalo? Grizzly? Moose?

I don't think it would ever be someone's csliber of choice for anything he's talking about but there was a pretty interesting sentence in the article.


"I saw a buffalo taken very cleanly with a single 156-grain solid from a 6.5x53R"

Pretty close to a Creedmoor ain't it?

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Be a lot simpler if Craig looked at from an s.d./min impact velocity stand point...he definitely has preferences, he just doesn’t know exactly what they are.

I know if he logged the bulk of his elk kills and reduced them down to s.d. Impact velocity and bullet construction he’d have a window of what he likes. He could do it for class 2 game, dangerous game etc. The cartridge doesn’t kill, the bullets do, at whatever impact velocities. Keeps him writing though to discuss cartridges, look at us fools bickering about them all lol. He must laugh, I think it’s both smart and hilarious.

I can tell you first hand that he doesn’t look at sd as closely as you do and he definitely doesn’t hunt anywhere near the min impact velocity

Lol but what does boddington know? Last time I talked to him he was at 96 or 97 Cape buffalo. He’s only wrote a couple handful of books. He write is in quite a few magazines. Won the Weatherby award.
I tried my hardest to trade him for his 6.5x300 wby Accumark. I think it was number 3 or 5 made. I forget. Any ways he just chuckled and said I need to buy a couple more pitchers of beer first. Great guy. Was lucky enough to pick his brain for 2 weeks. Learned a lot.

For non dangerous game he told me to pick the bullet based on the animal being hunted and the muzzle velocity. Higher velocity, stronger bullet. Bigger game stronger bullet. Obviously it has to be accurate. So I’ll save the smart remarks.
Never once once did he mention sd of a bullet. Probably because he knew that I knew that every 180gr 308 cal bullet has the same sd. Which makes it irrelevant.

It’s funny. A guy like that with such a wealth of knowledge and experience. He never ever acted or implied that he knew it all. Which is more than I can say about a couple guys on here.

[marky_mark]

It’s funny how this all started because someone thought they should change the rules to accommodate their child.

[marky_mark]

That’s funny the peanut gallery is pretty quiet

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

Anyone?

Why would you expect anyone would have a lot of experience shooting BG with a .22 CF? I'm sure a few Deer, Moose, and Elk have have been popped with one but they have never been legal around here as .. you know . Most anyone in their right mind would choose a larger caliber anyway if they were actually planning on hunting something much bigger than a Coyote.
I don't think you would be relying a .223 on your next Elk hunt either, regardless of what bullet they build for it, or how well you shoot it.... even if it was legal.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by chuck

Your worried someone will hunt elephants with it?

Lol!

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

It’s funny how this all started because someone thought they should change the rules to accommodate their child.

I think it is funny that some don’t think the .223 is capable. Must not shoot straight.

[EZM]

I'm of the train of thought that I don't worry about most of the guys on here who might use a .223 to hunt big game. Most people on here know and have at least a "basic understanding" of why it's important to place a good shot and what energy/bullet you need to get the job done at the ranges you intend to shoot your specific target.

The problem is this "basic undertstanding" may not be shared by the average joe hunter who wants to use an inaccurate weapon, maybe a poor bullet choice, at a range too far, on an animal too large to kill ethically.

For that reason alone - I am not a big fan of it. I'm not adamantly opposed, but I am certainly not lining up to vote for dropping our regs. to accommodate a smaller caliber. and putting it into the hands of the majority of hunters out there.

[Stinky Coyote]

Craig is awesome, shared bear camp with when I was young and just getting started. Have a signed copy of a book of his released shortly after, campfires and game trails(vice versa?). He left a personal note in it. So yes I agree, he’s great guy and I’m a fan. We know he emphasizes more than enough. His experience and knowledge would be hard to top. Does he take it down to the numbers though? No, it’s not his main interest. Some need, and or like, it broken down to common denominators. It helps seeing things on a same plain. And he’s at least got 100 cape buffs now, just saw 100 on the boob tube a couple weeks ago.

If we had chronicles of his kills, distances, cartridges, bullets etc. It likely wouldn’t take long to reduce things to the common denominators and see his preferences. Adequate s.d. For game intended, not more than enough, but a couple hundred FPS more than adequate for FPS, he figured out what works for him, not recoil sensitive, and no interest in efficiency or doing the most with powder burned.

We can also aggragate a crap load of other long time hunters that found that they were deadly af with adequate s.d. and adequate velocity. End of day both are right. When Craig goes elk hunting with Steve Hornady you see that exact scenario. Craig takes a 6.5 magnum and Steve takes a 6.5 Creedmoor. Both killers of rarified experience. One makes bullets though.😉 I think one has more interest in the common denominators than the others, and more understanding. The other knows he’s good with the more than enough formula he’s always used. And to be clear again...both are right.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

There are far more guys flinching and over gunned than the opposite. The general hunter is shooting 20 rounds of cheap ammo in 3 minute gun a year. Why are we worrying ourselves over people making poor killing rifle choices now?

Why should we change the rules for your kid?

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

You have to draw the line somewhere
That has always been at .23 cal

Where? Here?

There are more places with just as many hunters and animals that do allow. 22 CFs for game than not. They don't seem to have all these grevious problems brought up by those who have no experience using them.

I have experience. I have many friends with more experience using them and I've never heard or seen a problem.

To have an opinion with no experience is just dandy for you. I'd rather stand of facts and that's exactly where I am.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by chuck

There are far more guys flinching and over gunned than the opposite. The general hunter is shooting 20 rounds of cheap ammo in 3 minute gun a year. Why are we worrying ourselves over people making poor killing rifle choices now?

Fair comment. We have all seen those guys at the range in late summer/early fall for their annual pilgrimage to the range.

In my opinion, your point just trades one variable (flinching) and trades it against another (small round).

Don't know the answer - just my train of thought.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

That’s funny the peanut gallery is pretty quiet

Posting a link to an African safari hunt for elephant and buffalo.... seems like you're grasping at straws to me.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by rem338win

Where? Here?

There are more places with just as many hunters and animals that do allow. 22 CFs for game than not. They don't seem to have all these grevious problems brought up by those who have no experience using them.

I have experience. I have many friends with more experience using them and I've never heard or seen a problem.

To have an opinion with no experience is just dandy for you. I'd rather stand of facts and that's exactly where I am.

Biggest thing I’ve shot with a 223 is a wolf
Shot 3 with a 223
All went down. None were drt. After 30 mins none had expired when I walked up to them
A wolf is typically smaller than a deer
Therefore I don’t believe a 223 is good for game the size of a wolf or larger.
Not rocket science

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Craig is awesome, shared bear camp with when I was young and just getting started. Have a signed copy of a book of his released shortly after, campfires and game trails(vice versa?). He left a personal note in it. So yes I agree, he’s great guy and I’m a fan. We know he emphasizes more than enough. His experience and knowledge would be hard to top. Does he take it down to the numbers though? No, it’s not his main interest. Some need, and or like, it broken down to common denominators. It helps seeing things on a same plain. And he’s at least got 100 cape buffs now, just saw 100 on the boob tube a couple weeks ago.

If we had chronicles of his kills, distances, cartridges, bullets etc. It likely wouldn’t take long to reduce things to the common denominators and see his preferences. Adequate s.d. For game intended, not more than enough, but a couple hundred FPS more than adequate for FPS, he figured out what works for him, not recoil sensitive, and no interest in efficiency or doing the most with powder burned.

We can also aggragate a crap load of other long time hunters that found that they were deadly af with adequate s.d. and adequate velocity. End of day both are right. When Craig goes elk hunting with Steve Hornady you see that exact scenario. Craig takes a 6.5 magnum and Steve takes a 6.5 Creedmoor. Both killers of rarified experience. One makes bullets though.😉 I think one has more interest in the common denominators than the others, and more understanding. The other knows he’s good with the more than enough formula he’s always used. And to be clear again...both are right.

What you have been trying to say all along is that a large for caliber bullet with the same construction will provide the greatest penetration at a given
terminal velocity. That knowledge is as old as dirt. You did not discover sectional density and I really don't think it's worth much study time. Where lies the fascination ?

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Posting a link to an African safari hunt for elephant and buffalo.... seems like you're grasping at straws to me.

Man I could really care less what you think.
I’ve seen more bc animals go down then you’ve had hot lunches
One day you’ll be tall enough to go on the adult rides
Until then keep pumping your own tires

[rem338win]

http://www.westernwhitetail.com/22-centerfires-deer/

Ron Spomer is accomplished. Great read.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammo/...re_22_biggame/

And Boddington condones it too......

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...ight-for-deer/

More credibility for the cause....feel free to ignore science....

I'm personally tired of ignorance on people's parts.

If you think its reasonable for the 25-20, 32-20, 38-55, 44-40, 357s etc... to be legal but somehow your snowflake feelings swelter at the thought of the more than capable .223's and 22-250s being allowed them I don't know what to say. Maybe using practical thought processes and reasonable jusdgement is just not your thing.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

Mark, can you please leave my daughter out of this discussion. She has nothing to do with it and you know it.

Nobody said anything about daughters or sons. Nothing to do with them
They aren’t the ones trying to change the rules
It’s great she can shoot well
I’m sure as she gets older she will be a-ok shooting other calibers as well besides the 223

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Biggest thing I’ve shot with a 223 is a wolf
Shot 3 with a 223
All went down. None were drt. After 30 mins none had expired when I walked up to them
A wolf is typically smaller than a deer
Therefore I don’t believe a 223 is good for game the size of a wolf or larger.
Not rocket science

I've shot several deer with .22CFs and can speak of seeing quite few more and garner first hand testimony of many many more deer and black bear shot with .222s up to 22-284. All died well within the realm of reason and 2 of mine went less than 5 yds.

Your right, its not rocket science, and your very limited experience is a grain of sand in a desert.