Poll, allow .223” diam. bullets for big game?

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

I could say that potting game that you have been led to and that has been pre scouted by a group of professionals is unethical.

That’s from Boone and Crockett
Not sure if you heard of them?
Been around for a couple years. A few of their idea have worked in the past
This is their mission statement

It is the mission of the Boone and Crockett Club to promote the conservation and management of wildlife, especially big game, and its habitat, to preserve and encourage hunting and to maintain the highest ethical standards of fair chase and sportsmanship in North America.

Your you. I don’t see many people that are part of the chuck club? Or that want to be.

Ethically do we need to use a 23 cal for big game? I don’t see it

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

And it had nothing to do with the discussion. Your two for two.

It’s about ethics. Talks about where hunting ends and shooting begins

Pretty sure it’s relevant to this discussion

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

It’s about ethics. Talks about where hunting ends and shooting begins

Pretty sure it’s relevant to this discussion

In all honesty I think it's way less ethical for guys to be lobbing bullets at ranges they have no business shooting, and I'd bet there are way more animals injured because of long range warriors than because of too small of caliber.

[Stinky Coyote]

Lots of good info there, and an awesome amount of derail too lol.

Don, and others, I recognize the added versatility to any cartridge reloading can do. And build rifles to ideas etc. I’ve just not had much trouble finding sub-moa with stuff and don’t see the need. I’m still a ballistics nerd and I’ve built quite a few rigs up that go long and anyone I shot long with had nothing to say when challenged. Anyway...for the light hitter I’m moving from .243 to Grendel. I see more versatility there. If I were to choose a .223 cartridge I’d go with the new Valkyrie for same reasons. I see the .223 rem as very niche for big game, I can see where it’s limits would be. I wouldn’t choose it but I also wouldn’t be afraid to run one as it’s never mattered much what was in my hands...I’ve been good at this stuff since I started shooting around 7. Have introduced a number of people to hunting and guided their first, sometimes second, third, and forth, kills to and the .243 with fusions inside 300 did great for younger or smaller shooters. .270 win also for bigger peeps like me.

Anyway, looks like some just bent on discrediting me, and others who understand things the same, to feel better about themselves I guess. I’m as secure as they come so best of luck, watch that mirror lol.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

It’s about ethics. Talks about where hunting ends and shooting begins

Pretty sure it’s relevant to this discussion

X2, no it isn’t. Thread is a poll asking if we should allow .223 diam. Bullets for big game now?

200 votes now, 55% against, 40% for, 5% on the fence. Thanks for voting.

[Deer_Hunter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UknRey6BLA

[kujoseto]

Originally Posted by chuck

So far, no one in the no camp can come up with a legitimate reason why not. Other than no one can shoot straight or read an ammo box.

I haven’t voted. And I’m not going to read the whole thread...
I might lean towards no simply because of the lack of current suitable hunting ammo here in Alberta and there are enough people not choosing suitable ammo in larger calibres I may not trust to make a better decision on the smaller one.
Kind of an indifference though as I fully believe it’s suitable for killing big game. If they would allow 5 rd restricted rifles to be used for hunting (coyotes), then I might be more inclined to say why not change the minimum calibre for big game while we’re at it (so that those rifles can be used on deer and bear too)

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by Deer_Hunter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UknRey6BLA

Wow, even with a well placed shot that doe took right off. Had that been flat ground and thick bush, the doe would of covered 2 to 3 X's that distance.

Yuppers, I was on the middle side of the poll, I guess I'd have to say no to the 223 caliber idea

So add my unknown vote to that side fore sure.

Thank the Supreme Bean for big calibers, Ha

Many of us know that over gunned is always a good thing.

Lots of years a-field hunting have worked good so far, can't see any reason to reduce a proven caliber that has not let me down.

Just my opinion of what the clip shows and what works for me.

Dropped in their tracks is always a good feeling, no tracking required either. Ha

[Beeman3]

Never shot anything with my 22-284 unfortunately. But I know a few guys that have. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on deer. Sold it so I will never know. But a 80 gr Berger doing 3600 fps is going to cause some damage. Shooting steel with it at 500 yds was boringly routine.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

If that's the case SC, what cartrage case would you choose,,, 22 Hornets or 22-6mm of course there are 2 hand fulls of cartrages to choose from.

I find it strange that the case dosen't really make a difference.

A 55gr hornet at 2600 MZ, compared to a 22-6mm 80gr ELD-X @ 3400 ft-per seconds are the same. Seems strange to me that they are equal.

If the 22 caliber shooter was after better SD over a 80gr bullet, they could switch to a 6mm 105gr with better SD in the 261.

The difference in trajectory recoil very little,,, 25 grains = 2 grams ish

A little bit better frontal impact with the 6 that might help with opening up the hole. Ha

Just a thought that is.

You are basing your vote on one video ?
I'm sure if you look back you will remember seeing deer being shot in the lungs with big cartridges that went that far or even further .
That that it means much to anyone who has an opinion one way or another .
I don't like using buckshot for deer but many people do and I shot only one deer with buckshot 45 years or so ago
Cat

[LongBomber]

Since I live just to the west, any CF is legal here (restrictions on bison draws but...) I shot a deer once with a 223wssm and a 53gr tsx. I have seen a couple deer shot with a 25-20 Winchester, really I would take the 223/tsx combo over the 25-20. I squeezed the trigger, deer jumped once and fell over with a hole through the lungs.
To me the issue with making a 23 cal legal for hunting is that a deer is not the same as a elk or moose. Pick the right bullet and a 223 will do fine on a deer out a couple hundred, but it sure wouldnt be my pick for a good bull at 50 yards.

[Don_Parsons]

Been doing lots of reading, Intresting thread fore sure.

Took a bit of thinking since I was kind of game for this at first, but it was enviable that to many factors are at play against it happening.

At least I was unknown at first to size things up before deciding it's not for me.

Others get to pick and choose on the poll of how they feel about allowing the 223 diameter bullet into the big game category.

My simple opinions should have no bearing on anyone else's decision since mine is owned by me and me only.

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by chuck

Don. I’ve seen deer run further hit with 338 magnums. Just wow.

Not me, I only seen them fold in half. Ha

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Anyway, looks like some just bent on discrediting me, and others who understand things the same, to feel better about themselves I guess. I’m as secure as they come so best of luck, watch that mirror lol.

Discrediting you? LOL!

You do just fine doing that on your own. Not even sure why some guys spend the time responding to your nonsense...

[58thecat]

223 Barnes 70 Grain TSX Performance
I shot this 150 pound hog at 225 yards with a handloaded Barnes 70 grain Copper TSX bullet yesterday and recovered the bullet under his skin on the far side when I dressed him out, it definitely worked very well.

Bullet entered behind his elbow and blew out his lungs, he made it about 25 feet and DRT.

image.jpg


Not me just a pic and a small story, I said yes to this bullet but I said yes to a 300 win mag and watched a fella wound deer due to the recoil fact and his inability to place a round in the boiler room, after a long discussion I handed him my 270 with a 130 gr hornady pill and he had one shot success....I would not hesitate to put the hammer down on any deer with this little .223 and proper bullet combination.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Discrediting you? LOL!

You do just fine doing that on your own. Not even sure why some guys spend the time responding to your nonsense...

Uh huh, did you vote mr crazy?👍

P.s. I’m honoured you took the time to respond.✌️

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Honestly how much penetration do you need on a deer or non dangerous game?
Not a whole heck of a lot when your taking a broadside shot
I’d take the bullet dumping 5000 ft/lb of energy completely in the chest cavity of an animal. Over a Barnes that punching straight though with only 800 ft/lbs
How big of a wound channel is that 338 making compared to the 22 cal?

Having used both on a combined 12 deer the wound channels were very similar. I've shot deer with a 210gr TSX and 225gr Hornady out of the .338 Win Mag. The .338 made loony sized holes through with similar holes thru the lung heart area.

The 45gr TSX out of the 22-250 made considerably more damage on the internals with similar entry and exit. I broke shoulder with the 22-250 on a large dry doe that did about 24" of penetration and exited. She went down dramatically.

You have to remember that most .338 bullets are made for larger game and don't expand very much at all on the resistance of a deer.

Energy isn't a factor in killing. Damage and penetration are more reliable.

I've yet to see anyone with experience using a .22 CF on deer speak up in why they voted no. Because once you do use it you realize it works.

[Don_Parsons]

The magic bullet

This is what every person wants when it comes to hunting Gophers to the heaviest with everything in-between.

Some times we find it, sometimes not.

Too much in that category, purhaps not enough in that.

Might of saved the pelts, but it made a mess on the meat, wreck the pelt but saved more food for the table.

In most cases, the math is figured out on paper long before we buy the bullets, but endless factors soon follow once the cross hairs aim down on the target as the bullet leaves the barrel.

The hunting party that is gathered around the fire share stories of things that worked, and things that did not.
It's all in good fun as each of us reflect back at things in our own personal camp that is working.

Sometimes we change with the time, other times we leave well enough alone.

The talk about guns, cartrages, terrain, shot placement, weather how far we spotted the critter, why we passed up or took the shot,,, and the end results of how things played out.

I don't see anyone at our camp telling people what or what not to do, it all comes across the burning flames as suggestions or ideas. Either we except things for what they are, or we let things drift away with the sparks into the night sky.

There is always tomorrow to take up where things left off, or we eat the morning light lunch and scramble off to the forests.

I've been up and att'em long before the sun come up this morning as I sit on top of the valley spotting for game and taking note of the tracks left behind.

It looks like a beautiful day, no worries for old timer or my self since we both know that what ever critters allow us the opertunity to harvest,,, it will happen.
A few more weeks till things get underway.

All the firearm paperwork work is put away,,,the map of tracks is what we are focusing in on. Ha.

Good luck to all for the 2018 season ahead, that's what really counts.

[Sledin]

I LOVE this thread!
So much ****ing competition it's hellacious!

So much emotion!

I'm guessing there's a lot of "big hat, no land" statements here.
(Big gun, small antlers)
(I'm in Manitoba where I can hunt with a .223 caliber (.22-250) biggest buck is 143nt, but as you can see he broke a tine)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flight01]

Thanks for the first hand experience
What bullet and what distance?

Nice buck

[Bushleague]

Is it just me, or does it seem like most of the gun nuts who think a .223 should be legal for big game already own fairly hot magnums, and are often known to tout their superiority?

Can the .223 be used to humanely take deer? Of course it can. Is there any real good reason to do this? Not really other than a few nuts want to try a new stunt. If the .223 was made legal a bunch of dudes with safes full of far better rifles would go set up a new rifle, come up with a load, use it a season or two and go back to their .300 mag... and a bunch of people who don't know any better would go pick up some bulk varmint amo and send their kid after deer with the old gopher gun.

Honestly, there are a million gun and hunting related policies that energy would be far better spent working on. Using a .223 seems like pulling a travel trailer with a mini van, it can be done but why bother?

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by bushleague

is it just me, or does it seem like most of the gun nuts who think a .223 should be legal for big game already own fairly hot magnums, and are often known to tout their superiority?

Can the .223 be used to humanely take deer? Of course it can. Is there any real good reason to do this? Not really other than a few nuts want to try a new stunt. If the .223 was made legal a bunch of dudes with safes full of far better rifles would go set up a new rifle, come up with a load, use it a season or two and go back to their .300 mag... And a bunch of people who don't know any better would go pick up some bulk varmint amo and send their kid after deer with the old gopher gun.

Honestly, there are a million gun and hunting related policies that energy would be far better spent working on. Using a .223 seems like pulling a travel trailer with a mini van, it can be done but why bother?

👍

[Stinky Coyote]

Magnumitus

It’s real

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Magnumitus

It’s real

He who likes to dish it out, better be able to take it.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Sledin

I LOVE this thread!
So much ****ing competition it's hellacious!

So much emotion!

I'm guessing there's a lot of "big hat, no land" statements here.
(Big gun, small antlers)
(I'm in Manitoba where I can hunt with a .223 caliber (.22-250) biggest buck is 143nt, but as you can see he broke a tine)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice rack!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

He who likes to dish it out, better be able to take it.

Haha, no prob, the skin is thick, would not have come back to play otherwise. Bring it mofos😉

[honda610]

I voted no simply because of the idiot factor. To many new hunting citiots who watched a hunting show would grab the newest semi auto with the cheapest 55 FMJ ammo and dress like call of duty to go deer hunting because there wanting to be tough alpha males and get free cheap meat. I have way to many conversations with video game wanna be idiots and new age millennials wanting gen non modified meat trying to get into the sport at work. Makes me wanna move further into the bush. Yes there are people capable and yes the round is capable of taking deer size game but most people are stupid as a stumps so giving them a option to blast away when we are under fire from every anti group would be adding another nail in the coffin.
Just my 2 cents.
Happy long weekend

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by honda610

I voted no simply because of the idiot factor. To many new hunting citiots who watched a hunting show would grab the newest semi auto with the cheapest 55 FMJ ammo and dress like call of duty to go deer hunting because there wanting to be tough alpha males and get free cheap meat. I have way to many conversations with video game wanna be idiots and new age millennials wanting gen non modified meat trying to get into the sport at work. Makes me wanna move further into the bush. Yes there are people capable and yes the round is capable of taking deer size game but most people are stupid as a stumps so giving them a option to blast away when we are under fire from every anti group would be adding another nail in the coffin.
Just my 2 cents.
Happy long weekend

There is the flip side to your scenario, and one that I bet is much more prevent and not just designated to what you call citiots. It's the long range dreamers, the guys who watch best of the west then buy a 7mm mag or a 300 magnum and then a scope with magical ballistic powers and figure they're good to go to 1200yds. I'd bet this phenomenon is responsible for 10x the amount of wounded animals than a small caliber choice.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

There is the flip side to your scenario, and one that I bet is much more prevent and not just designated to what you call citiots. It's the long range dreamers, the guys who watch best of the west then buy a 7mm mag or a 300 magnum and then a scope with magical ballistic powers and figure they're good to go to 1200yds. I'd bet this phenomenon is responsible for 10x the amount of wounded animals than a small caliber choice.

Haha....I'm kinda/sorta watching "Best of The West" as we type,lol(oddly enough,they're in Africa up close n personal with Cape Buffalo this episode?

Anyhow......I vote no for the same idiot factor Honda610 eludes to.
Sure,deer can be and are killed often with the sub-.23s....doesn't make a .223 a "deer rifle",although the relatively newer chamberings like the Valkyrie and Creedmore etc that can handle heavy for caliber bullets are well suited and capable deer loads,again.....too many idiots out there imho that would be chasing deer with Winny white box or wutever other varmint round happens to be on sale at Walmart/Cambodian Tire that day.

Edit:case in point,I just went back to actually read the entire discussion from beginning and right off the bat(post#10) there's a Rambo saying "it would be nice to hunt deer with a T97" ....good Lord.
Ironic how the .223 advocates will yammer on and on about "shot placement ,shot placement,shot placement........then in the next breath they want to hunt with a spray and pray 3-4MOA Chinese bull pup.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

There is the flip side to your scenario, and one that I bet is much more prevent and not just designated to what you call citiots. It's the long range dreamers, the guys who watch best of the west then buy a 7mm mag or a 300 magnum and then a scope with magical ballistic powers and figure they're good to go to 1200yds. I'd bet this phenomenon is responsible for 10x the amount of wounded animals than a small caliber choice.

I wouldn't be limiting it to Magnum users or place of residence but my bet would be that more chit happens between 300-600 yds than longer .. with any rifle or cartridge. Just a guess though.