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  #271  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
One of my best friends lost his wife to an impaired driver, and I can assure you, that Why was very much on his mind, especially after it turned out that the impaired driver was a repeat offender.

Yes, the "Why" was there but it was directed at how could the system let a convicted impaired driver get his license back. Murder is different because of the "violence" and "intent".

As horrible as it was, the impaired driver did not "intent" to kill your wife's friend or use his vehicle in "violent" matter.

Lots of people are killed at jobs sites everyday, why is it such a big deal when a police officer shot. The reason is that the life was loss in an act of intentional violence.

These students and teachers were killed in an act of intentional violence with a firearm.

To stay with your analogy, if a drunk driver went through a school crosswalk and killed the crossing guard and 16 students, it would be a horrible tragedy. But it is a complete different situation than what occurred in Florida and is occurring on a regular basis in the US.
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  #272  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:44 AM
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The FBI and police failed miserably...they did not enforce current laws to prevent this tragedy.

If the FBI gets a call about a potential threat...they should at least follow up and try to mitigate any tragedy.

They did not...

The police were called 30+ times to this guys house...yet did nothing.

LC
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  #273  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
The FBI and police failed miserably...they did not enforce current laws to prevent this tragedy.

If the FBI gets a call about a potential threat...they should at least follow up and try to mitigate any tragedy.

They did not...

The police were called 30+ times to this guys house...yet did nothing.

LC
If there are laws in place hat could have prevented this, and the authorities never enforced the laws, what makes people think that more laws would have been enforced?

The problem is that some people's response to everything is more legislation, rather than enforcing the legislation that is already in lace. Even when we enact mandatory sentences, the courts refuse to implement them.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supr...imes-1.3031847

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politi...earms-offences
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  #274  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:54 AM
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Not at all.

I'm simply saying that whatever they're doing down there isn't working. They need to change something. Do something. Come up with some kind of plan to curb these types of shootings.


The problem with many is that unless you're rabidly defending the right you must be left. Or vice versa. That's not how rational people live. I'm pro gun. I'm also pro gun control. Crazy right.
You do realize that 40-50 teenagers die everyday in the United States.

I know everyone loves to politicize a good tragedy but isn't this too much for a hunting and shooting forum.

As much as liberal thinking people would like you to believe that we are one good piece of legislation away from eternal life, we are all going to die. The 40 or 50 kids that die today and everyday will not make the headlines of course. When there is no political gain, there is no news story.

Maybe think about that for a minute before jumping on the band wagon and punishing your fellow outdoorsmen with further useless, feel good, liberal restrictions on our freedom.

The latest information proves beyond doubt that the authorities dropped the ball in this case and that this shooting could and should have been prevented with the system that is in place.
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  #275  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
The FBI and police failed miserably...they did not enforce current laws to prevent this tragedy.

If the FBI gets a call about a potential threat...they should at least follow up and try to mitigate any tragedy.

They did not...

The police were called 30+ times to this guys house...yet did nothing.

LC
Definitely a fail in those circumstances. In Canada sec. 117 of the C.C. allows the seizure of firearms in the interest of public safety and is normally used in mental health and serious domestic violence cases. I wonder if Florida has similar legislation or does the firearm need to be "evidence" of a crime before Police can seize it. Also being that "firearms ownership" is a constitutional right in the US, it is the responsibility of the State to show why a person should not own firearm as opposed to the person arguing why he should. I wonder where that "bar" is set for those court battles knowing the decision could be argue like a "Charter Breach" here in Canada. Also in the US the laws differ from state to state. Don't like the laws in California, just cross the border into Nevada and hit a gun show. It must be very difficult for any National level effective change with 50 different sets of rules to consider.
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  #276  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:57 AM
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It happens in other countries too.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/wor...police-shooter

Quote:
He went on the rampage armed with a hunting rifle in the city of Kizlyar in the Republic of Dagestan.

The shooter targeted a group of people celebrating a religious folk festival and injured four others.

Security guards killed the attacker – said to be a local resident born in 1995 – but two of them were wounded in the process.

The four fatalities are reportedly female civilians who were leaving an Orthodox Sunday service.
Looks like an old single shot that was used.
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  #277  
Old 02-18-2018, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
If there are laws in place hat could have prevented this, and the authorities never enforced the laws, what makes people think that more laws would have been enforced?

The problem is that some people's response to everything is more legislation, rather than enforcing the legislation that is already in lace. Even when we enact mandatory sentences, the courts refuse to implement them.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/supr...imes-1.3031847

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politi...earms-offences
Yup, take for instance the driving with undue care and attention...need not re-invent the wheel with distracted driving...but yet the hammerheads do and the wheel of idiots keep on spinning....peoplekind

As for this instance if there was indeed social media of this freak speaking of killing etc then those who know him should have reported it and those who are there to investigate should have followed up...a complete failure from all involved if this was the case.
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  #278  
Old 02-18-2018, 10:27 AM
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Yup, take for instance the driving with undue care and attention...need not re-invent the wheel with distracted driving...but yet the hammerheads do and the wheel of idiots keep on spinning....peoplekind

As for this instance if there was indeed social media of this freak speaking of killing etc then those who know him should have reported it and those who are there to investigate should have followed up...a complete failure from all involved if this was the case.

Off topic but "undue care and attention" was impossible to prove without the end result of a traffic collision. What "distracted driving" laws did was specified activities that likely would lead to a collision and allowed the Police to enforce/correct the behavior before a collision occurred. So this is one that actually benefits "peoplekind." I still see what my wife refers to as "putting their face on" (makeup) while on the Henday each morning.

Maybe it isn't off topic? Most are saying that it is more effective and productive to deal with the problem and behavior prior to, then turning a blind eye in fear of infringing on someone's rights.

Last edited by brendan's dad; 02-18-2018 at 10:41 AM.
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  #279  
Old 02-18-2018, 11:17 AM
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It often seems that mental illness is not diagnosed until one has done harm to oneself or others.

It also seems that Florida has tougher alcohol law than firearm law. Maybe it is just Fake News but it has been reported that the shooter was not of legal age to buy beer but was of legal age to buy an AR.
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  #280  
Old 02-18-2018, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MK2750 View Post
You do realize that 40-50 teenagers die everyday in the United States.

I know everyone loves to politicize a good tragedy but isn't this too much for a hunting and shooting forum.

As much as liberal thinking people would like you to believe that we are one good piece of legislation away from eternal life, we are all going to die. The 40 or 50 kids that die today and everyday will not make the headlines of course. When there is no political gain, there is no news story.

Maybe think about that for a minute before jumping on the band wagon and punishing your fellow outdoorsmen with further useless, feel good, liberal restrictions on our freedom.

The latest information proves beyond doubt that the authorities dropped the ball in this case and that this shooting could and should have been prevented with the system that is in place.
You do know there's a difference between having cancer or falling in the bathtub and being shot right?
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  #281  
Old 02-18-2018, 11:26 AM
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The latest information proves beyond doubt that the authorities dropped the ball in this case and that this shooting could and should have been prevented with the system that is in place.
Yes, the authorities did drop the ball, but the shooter did have easy access to a weapon.
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  #282  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:17 PM
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I am well aware that correlation does not prove causation,

but,

Why do many (or most / all) multiple shootings take place in ‘gun free zones’?

It is reported that 3 teachers including a football coach were victims in the most recent event.
In addition to investigating the murderer’s history of SSRI usage,
(and the 39 recent Police responses to his home),
we need to ask if this murderer could have been deterred by the possibility of lethal defence, if at least 3 of his victims (and other properly licensed adults) could have been legally armed in that place.

We should also be mindful that the worst school mass murder in history remains the Bath School massacre of 1927, in which a long gun was present but not fired.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
As Supergrit suggests in post # 232, someone may possibly seek notoriety by setting a new record.

http://www.thedailybell.com/news-ana...ners-debunked/

Good Luck, YMMV
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  #283  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:18 PM
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Default You also have easy access to a firearm.

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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Yes, the authorities did drop the ball, but the shooter did have easy access to a weapon.
It is the same age restriction in Canada to acquire a AR 15 as it is in Florida.
There are a ton of happy kids that have easy access to firearms and non of the happy mentally stable kids go on a shooting spree so I think we can rule out the gun as the primary suspect.
It’s always troubled and mentally ill kids that do the killing. Maybe they should have a support system in place to recognize and get proper help for these troubled kids.
Maybe if the education system was better the classes would be more manageable and the teachers could maybe recognize these individuals and help point them in the right direction.
Maybe the corrupt FBI should spend less time on covering their tracks and Russian collusion than investigating people that are being reported to them as a real threat.
Just a thought.
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  #284  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:21 PM
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You do know there's a difference between having cancer or falling in the bathtub and being shot right?
Dead is dead. Glorify or politicize all you want but mandatory driving classes and drug awareness in the classrooms would actually make a difference.

It is proven that people become paranoid when they feel that something is completely out of their control and applies directly to them.

Thousands of people die everyday on the highways all around us yet we drive on oblivious to the real dangers.

Why?

Because we are in almost complete denial of reality. It's not going to happen to us because we are better drivers, it only happens to bad drivers.

Up to 4000 kids die from overdose but not ours.

Why?

We are better parents than those other folks. Those kids chose or deserve this, mine of course do not.

They had two actors lay in front of a busy office complex in obvious distress. One was dressed like a homeless man and the other in suit and tie.

As you might have guessed, nearly everyone offered assistance to the well dressed man and none to the homeless.

They could see themselves in the well dressed man and reacted accordingly. It could happen to them and it scared them into action. It doesn't make them good people, it in fact makes them self serving.

I am sorry about your paranoia and as a parent I understand your feelings of helplessness when things like this happen. Believe me, if I thought for a second that there was even a chance that the criminally insane would abide by new legislation I would be right there on the ban wagon with you.
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  #285  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:36 PM
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It is the same age restriction in Canada to acquire a AR 15 as it is in Florida.
Yes there is but in Canada they are restricted and not sold to just any kid that wants them. Potential buyers of restricted firearms have been pre screened when they applied for a restricted pal. To add to that, AR use in Canada is legal only at a designated range. That alone deters many would be buyers.
In the USA it is easy to own an AR but in Canada the restriction makes it not so desirable.

In the US the sales person makes the decision but in Canada the decision is made by someone authorized to check the buyer.
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  #286  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Yes there is but in Canada they are restricted and not sold to just any kid that wants them. Potential buyers of restricted firearms have been pre screened when they applied for a restricted pal. To add to that, AR use in Canada is legal only at a designated range. That alone deters many would be buyers.
In the USA it is easy to own an AR but in Canada the restriction makes it not so desirable.
Yes your right it is a pain to have to shoot it at the range only especially when the government keeps closing down ranges for people to shoot at.
Being restricted would not stop someone from using it someware else unlawfully especially if they are going to murder with it.
The local police and the FBI could have easily taken his weapons away and flagged him so he could not buy a weapon. They did not do their job as they all admitted.
Canada’s restrictions only make it undesirable for law abiding citizens.

So it sounds like you have a better answer as how to curb the gun violence in the US. I have suggested investing money into better healthcare, education and social projects to help troubled kids.
So if you like to criticize my suggestions I would like to hear and am very interested in what you suggest would be the best possible fix to the gun violence problem.
This goes to fitzy also.
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  #287  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:55 PM
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Yes, the authorities did drop the ball, but the shooter did have easy access to a weapon.
We are talking crowded hall ways and school children. A quality sword and he would have killed dozens and probably wounded dozens more.
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  #288  
Old 02-18-2018, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Yes there is but in Canada they are restricted and not sold to just any kid that wants them. Potential buyers of restricted firearms have been pre screened when they applied for a restricted pal. To add to that, AR use in Canada is legal only at a designated range. That alone deters many would be buyers.
In the USA it is easy to own an AR but in Canada the restriction makes it not so desirable.

In the US the sales person makes the decision but in Canada the decision is made by someone authorized to check the buyer.
Are you saying that firearms restrictions would reduce the ability of someone who has intent to commit mass murder?

The mass murderer knows that murder is illegal. Firearms laws are of no concern to that determined individual. That is why we are better off with present, physical deterrents I.E responsible, armed citizens. Teachers in this case.
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  #289  
Old 02-18-2018, 01:19 PM
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Are you saying that firearms restrictions would reduce the ability of someone who has intent to commit mass murder?

The mass murderer knows that murder is illegal. Firearms laws are of no concern to that determined individual. That is why we are better off with present, physical deterrents I.E responsible, armed citizens. Teachers in this case.
Then please try to explain why the country with the laxest gun laws also has the worlds highest incidence of mass shootings, and this includes 3rd world countries in the middle of wars! No other country in the world needs to arm teachers to prevent this sort of behavior, so why is it necessary in the good 'ol US of A ????
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  #290  
Old 02-18-2018, 01:35 PM
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Then please try to explain why the country with the laxest gun laws also has the worlds highest incidence of mass shootings, and this includes 3rd world countries in the middle of wars! No other country in the world needs to arm teachers to prevent this sort of behavior, so why is it necessary in the good 'ol US of A ????
It’s not classified the same all over the world you may have to google the word massacre instead of mass shooting.
Have you ever heard of al-Shabab or Boko Haram?
Many many mass shootings, bombings and child abduction along with other atrocities.
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  #291  
Old 02-18-2018, 01:36 PM
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Then please try to explain why the country with the laxest gun laws also has the worlds highest incidence of mass shootings, and this includes 3rd world countries in the middle of wars! No other country in the world needs to arm teachers to prevent this sort of behavior, so why is it necessary in the good 'ol US of A ????
Why don't you go wandering around the streets of these 3rd world countries and see if you feel as safe as the good old US of A.

Think it is safer in Germany, Turkey, France???

Just how much freedom do you want to give up for this false sense of security?

Chinese type control, Japan, Iran, Russia????

I like throwing a few guns in the truck and going out shooting when ever I please. Is that too scary for you? Should I have an annual mental stability test? Are my guns too scary? Some are auto loaders
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  #292  
Old 02-18-2018, 01:45 PM
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Off topic but "undue care and attention" was impossible to prove without the end result of a traffic collision. What "distracted driving" laws did was specified activities that likely would lead to a collision and allowed the Police to enforce/correct the behavior before a collision occurred. So this is one that actually benefits "peoplekind." I still see what my wife refers to as "putting their face on" (makeup) while on the Henday each morning.

Maybe it isn't off topic? Most are saying that it is more effective and productive to deal with the problem and behavior prior to, then turning a blind eye in fear of infringing on someone's rights.

115(1) For the purposes of this section, a driver of a vehicle is driving carelessly if that driver drives the vehicle
1) without due care and attention;
2) without reasonable consideration for persons using the highway

The penalty for Careless Driving can be a fine as high $2,000.00 or a loss of licence up to 3 months.

This was there but was more clarified/detailed in distracted driving either way no vehicle accident required to be fined etc....way off topic but if the powers to be act immediately to social media possible threats or rediculous ideas it might help remedy some situations.
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  #293  
Old 02-18-2018, 01:49 PM
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I would be more inclined to worry about what Canada is doing with our gun laws rather than worry about Americas Second Amendment Right. That right was to arm the people to protect from tyranny which may be something for us to look at in Canadas' present state of affairs. JMHO.
I spent over 25 years working in the USA, with lots of time on the Mexican border.
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  #294  
Old 02-18-2018, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
Then please try to explain why the country with the laxest gun laws also has the worlds highest incidence of mass shootings, and this includes 3rd world countries in the middle of wars! No other country in the world needs to arm teachers to prevent this sort of behavior, so why is it necessary in the good 'ol US of A ????

Another god Bill Whittle report.
You need to watch this! Don't let facts get in the way.
https://youtu.be/pELwCqz2JfE
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  #295  
Old 02-18-2018, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
Then please try to explain why the country with the laxest gun laws also has the worlds highest incidence of mass shootings, and this includes 3rd world countries in the middle of wars! No other country in the world needs to arm teachers to prevent this sort of behavior, so why is it necessary in the good 'ol US of A ????
I don't know, I have some ideas, but let's play it safe and arm them.
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  #296  
Old 02-18-2018, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 58thecat View Post
115(1) For the purposes of this section, a driver of a vehicle is driving carelessly if that driver drives the vehicle
1) without due care and attention;
2) without reasonable consideration for persons using the highway

The penalty for Careless Driving can be a fine as high $2,000.00 or a loss of licence up to 3 months.

This was there but was more clarified/detailed in distracted driving either way no vehicle accident required to be fined etc....way off topic but if the powers to be act immediately to social media possible threats or rediculous ideas it might help remedy some situations.
OK
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  #297  
Old 02-18-2018, 05:06 PM
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We are talking crowded hall ways and school children. A quality sword and he would have killed dozens and probably wounded dozens more.
Is that the best you can do? All you seem to do is mention other ways of killing. This is just one of many firearm related school shootings and the weapon of choice was an AR.

I do not give a ratz butt if you somehow think I am an anti and am selling out fellow outdoors men. I am not. I do care more about the loss of young life than protecting the rights of people to their toys.

I do not like the idea of banning any particular type of firearm but I am starting to think there is no good reason for the numerous numbers of ARs in civilian hands. I have changed my mind. Make this type of firearm illegal to possess and come down hard on anyone that has one in their possession and sells them.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Newview01 View Post
Are you saying that firearms restrictions would reduce the ability of someone who has intent to commit mass murder?

The mass murderer knows that murder is illegal. Firearms laws are of no concern to that determined individual. That is why we are better off with present, physical deterrents I.E responsible, armed citizens. Teachers in this case.
I do not buy what you are selling.
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  #299  
Old 02-18-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Is that the best you can do? All you seem to do is mention other ways of killing. This is just one of many firearm related school shootings and the weapon of choice was an AR.

I do not give a ratz butt if you somehow think I am an anti and am selling out fellow outdoors men. I am not. I do care more about the loss of young life than protecting the rights of people to their toys.

I do not like the idea of banning any particular type of firearm but I am starting to think there is no good reason for the numerous numbers of ARs in civilian hands. I have changed my mind. Make this type of firearm illegal to possess and come down hard on anyone that has one in their possession and sells them.
First you ban the AR-15, then you ban any semi auto , because the reality is many of the current non restricted semi autos are every bit as dangerous. But people will still be dying, so then you ban all pump actions and lever actions, because they can still deliver a high rate of fire. People will still be dying, so then you ban all firearms, because the reality is that they can all be used to take lives. Once the government gets started banning, the anti gun crowd will keep pushing for more bans, and they won't quit until only the police and military can legally possess firearms. And people will still be dying because of firearms, because criminals don't care about the law.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 02-18-2018 at 05:28 PM.
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  #300  
Old 02-18-2018, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MK2750 View Post

Just how much freedom do you want to give up for this false sense of security?
Those children gave up more than their freedom because many do not want to give up the right to their toys and the NRA wants to continue making sure that those who manufacture ARs continue to make money flooding the market with ARs. Plititian without balls are more worried about their job than the lives of the children.
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