.300 win mag vs .300 wsm

[1shotwade]

Hey elk i am still wondering,or assuming that most people that shoot long range are under skilled!! I use that term loosely, i have had guys with me at the range shooting effectively out to 500 in under 20 rounds! Once 1 person learns there gun a 12" circle at 500 is effective for hunting! I talk to lot's of hunters and they pretty much agree that spending the time and money to get sub groups is a waste of time/money! just my two cents and thats all I got left after christmas!! cheers

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by browning375

If your looking for the true best for a 300. look at a 300 weatherby, they have the best ballistics of them all!

I'd have to work a SECOND JOB to be able to shoot one of those !!
That would really cut into my free shooting time

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Jeepers, maybe you should tell us how you REALLY feel about range finders??!!
Cat

I am sure that pair of geovids you own has bought you to the same conclusion.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

I am sure that pair of geovids you own has bought you to the same conclusion.

Actually, one of my buddies made me an offer i couldn't refuse!!
it's amazing how much of a sucker I am for a custom barreled , falling block with good glass!!
Time to look for another range finder - or maybe get WTJ to teach me how to "go long"!!
Cat

[elkhunter11]

I've killed a few animals at 500+ yards ( deer ) don't remember the last time I missed one actually.

I'd say I've taken maybe 5 deer out that far..... I've missed a few as well, thats part of hunting.

It's a miracle,his memory is returning.

So you have killed five deer at over 400 yards,and missed a few.Even if a few is only three or four misses,that is five for eight or nine,and I want better odds than that,before I take a shot at a game animal.I guess that I just respect the animals that I hunt to take shots with that kind of percentage.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Actually, one of my buddies made me an offer i couldn't refuse!!
it's amazing how much of a sucker I am for a custom barreled , falling block with good glass!!
Time to look for another range finder - or maybe get WTJ to teach how to "go long"!!
Cat

^^^^^ As long as the entry fee to that shooting clinic is less than 2500 cdn your probably cash ahead.

Just teasin

[elkhunter11]

If your looking for the true best for a 300. look at a 300 weatherby, they have the best ballistics of them all!

Have you ever heard of a 300RUM?How about a 30-378?Perhaps a Lazzeroni Warbird?All have ballistics superior to the 300 Weatherby.

[elkhunter11]

Time to look for another range finder - or maybe get WTJ to teach me how to "go long"!!
Cat

Maybe we can get him up to our range so he can teach us old farts how to shoot.

Hey elk i am still wondering,or assuming that most people that shoot long range are under skilled!! I use that term loosely, i have had guys with me at the range shooting effectively out to 500 in under 20 rounds! Once 1 person learns there gun a 12" circle at 500 is effective for hunting!

By shooting effectively,do you mean that they can hit a 12" gong at 500 yards?I can sight a rifle in for 500 yards,and hand it to someone that has never shot past 100 yards,and they could hit that gong,off of a bench,but that hardly makes them competent at 500 yards.What if the wind suddenly increases by 10mph?Will they still be hitting that gong?What if the range is suddenly changed to 400 yards?Can you be sure that they will hit the gong?
What if we make them shoot from a field position,instead of from a benchrest?
If they were really competent at those distances,they would still hit that gong.

As far as a 12" target is concerned,that is quite large for a deer,or for a pronghorn,I would think that 8" or 9" would be much preferred to ensure a clean kill,and that 8" or 9" would be from a field position,not off of a benchrest.

[bigoldan43]

Originally Posted by canadianbigbuck

Just doing some research and wondering if any of you guys could help me out. I'm looking to get a good long range performer that has good knock down power for elk/moose yet not too heavy for deer also. I have narrowed it down to the .300 win mag or .300 wsm.
I was leaning more towards the .300 wsm, but after going through the ballistics charts, the .300 win mag is pretty much the same.

What advantages does the .300 wsm have over the .300 win mag other than a shorter cartridge?

I will be using the rifle mainly for longer range hunting (from ground blinds in large fields)
The .300 rum is a real impressive round, but not impressed with the cost of ammo for them(i don't reload), so that one is out.
Any help or insite would be appreciated.
Thanks

Wow! Few things will get gun guys going more than asking which is the best caliber!
The wsm should be more accurate by design. Short action and shoulder headspace is the big factors.
The longer magnum will have the advantage over the wsm by being more popular. Therefore ammo will be cheaper and if nothing else, more readily available. You'll probably find rifle selection greater too.
I've used the 300 win mag for close to 30 years and that's my round of choice. If I was to replace it, I'd look at the short mag because it should be more accurate.

[elkhunter11]

Wow! Few things will get gun guys going more than asking which is the best caliber!
The wsm should be more accurate by design. Short action and shoulder headspace is the big factors.

With precision made benchrest rifles,and match grade loads,you might see a small difference in accuracy.With equal quality hunting rifles,and hunting loads,you would be hard pressed to see any difference at all.I actually lightened the wallets of a couple of fellows at the local range after they made those same claims when comparing their 270wsm and 300wsm to my 300RUM,and then tried to prove their claims in an informal shooting match.


If you neck size the belted mags after fireforming,you will actually be headspacing off of the shoulder.

[browning375]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

I'd have to work a SECOND JOB to be able to shoot one of those !!
That would really cut into my free shooting time

Well if you reload yourself its not a big expense! People who shoot alot do most of there reloading, the most expensive part for a 300 wby is the brass. I also have a 340 wby, which is almost better in my opinion than a .338 lapua.

[browning375]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Have you ever heard of a 300RUM?How about a 30-378?Perhaps a Lazzeroni Warbird?All have ballistics superior to the 300 Weatherby.

Well maybe if you can find f#%^ing ammo for them any where in Canada. I'm just saying, a .300 wby beats a .300 win mag, that's all.

[elkhunter11]

Well maybe if you can find f#%^ing ammo for them any where in Canada.

Try Wholesale Sports,P&D,Bashaw Sports,pretty much any real hunting and shooting store stocks 300RUM and normally even 30-378 ammunition.

[browning375]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Have you ever heard of a 300RUM?How about a 30-378?Perhaps a Lazzeroni Warbird?All have ballistics superior to the 300 Weatherby.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Try Wholesale Sports,P&D,Bashaw Sports,pretty much any real hunting and shooting store stocks 300RUM and normally even 30-378 ammunition.

What type of gun platform can you get for 300RUM? model 700, browning, remmington, etc? personally i have never seen them around red deer.

[elkhunter11]

What type of gun platform can you get for 300RUM?

Remington still chambers the 300RUM in the 700,and Savage,Sako,Browning,and Winchester have all chambered the 300RUM.

[canadianbigbuck]

Well well, looks like I opened up a can of worms here. My whole point of the thread was to get some good advice and knowledge of guys who had experience with the .300win mag and the WSM. Thank you too all of you who posted helpful ideas and suggestions. It is nice to have, that is why I am on this forum. But.....

Elk, I really appreciated your advice and passing along knowledge at the beginning of the posts, but am now disappointed on how I am now grouped into someone who doesn't know anything about long range shooting and am under skilled? You don't know a thing about me or how much hunting, shooting experience I have or do. It is funny how you assumed that I am going to go and buy a longer range cartridge and shoot it a couple times at 400-500 yards and now I'm good to go to shot an elk. I understand that a flat shooting cartridge doesn't suddenly transform me into a long range hunter, I would be the first person to tell you that if you knew me.
Also, I was just asking a simple question about the .300RUM, I already know that it is not the cartridge for me at this time. Trust me, if I had the time to reload I would, maybe in the future I will.
Thanks Sheep for trying to explain that most long range shooters indeed are willing to put in the time and effort into doing it right, thats were I'm at.
Just doing my research right now, I thought.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It's a miracle,his memory is returning.

So you have killed five deer at over 400 yards,and missed a few.Even if a few is only three or four misses,that is five for eight or nine,and I want better odds than that,before I take a shot at a game animal.I guess that I just respect the animals that I hunt to take shots with that kind of percentage.

ya ya...
Actually I was guessing at 5. I haven't really kept track over the years. I quit counting years ago.
And how many have you killed ? And exactly at what range were they?
Actually, I'm kidding........because I couldn't care how many animals you've shot, and care even less at what range they were.
Good on you for being the long range wizard that you are.
I'm a hunter first and foremost, I reload and have my 180gr. bullet going 3000ft/sec, 2'' high at 100yrds.
I know my limits and I know what my gun can do and I kill everything I've shot at as far back as my memory will serve me.
And I think there's a lot more of ''me's'' out there than ''you's'' .

Oh....

And have a very HAPPY NEW YEAR !!

[Mountain Guy]

CanBigBuck,
Not sure what your thoughts are now between the 2 but I will point out that you really don't need to worry about the ammo issue when considering which way to go.
WSM ammo is readily available. I see they now carry it at Canadian Tire and I think some Wal Marts. Not the premium stuff, just the win. super-x power points. Which by the way shot quite good out of both 300 short mags I've owned.
I imagine I will get corrected or challenged on this piece of info though

Happy New Year to you as well !!

[elkhunter11]

Elk, I really appreciated your advice and passing along knowledge at the beginning of the posts, but am now disappointed on how I am now grouped into someone who doesn't know anything about long range shooting and am under skilled? You don't know a thing about me or how much hunting, shooting experience I have or do. It is funny how you assumed that I am going to go and buy a longer range cartridge and shoot it a couple times at 400-500 yards and now I'm good to go to shot an elk. I understand that a flat shooting cartridge doesn't suddenly transform me into a long range hunter, I would be the first person to tell you that if you knew me.

I don't know you personally,but judging by your questions,you certainly make it sound as though you haven't done a lot of long range shooting to this point.

I was pointing out that many people purchase a longer range capable rifle,then they don't make the effort to practice to increase their shooting skills.I didn't post that you personally would do this,just that many people in general do this.Many of those people coincidentally do not reload,and the cost of practicing is often a major factor.

I sincerely hope that you do make a real effort,and develop your shooting skills and become a competent long range shooter,doing so will put you in the minority of so called long range shooters.

Thanks Sheep for trying to explain that most long range shooters indeed are willing to put in the time and effort into doing it right, thats were I'm at.

Actually that is not what myself or some other people read into his posts.We are reading that he feels that the new technology can take the place of much of the practicing and experience that it takes to make a competent long range shooter.

And how many have you killed ? And exactly at what range were they?
Actually, I'm kidding........because I couldn't care how many animals you've shot, and care even less at what range they were.
Good on you for being the long range wizard that you are.

As best as I can remember,I have killed between fifteen and twenty big game animals at over 400 yards,and likely another twenty five to thirty more at between 300 and 400 yards,because I do a lot of my hunting over open fields.I won't shoot at any animal,at any distance that I haven't practiced at on targets,so I have never attempted a shot on any big game animal at much over 500 yards.

I too have missed my fair share of shots on game,especially when I started hunting,didn't have much experience judging ranges,and my shooting skills were still raw and undeveloped.I was also too young to have the restraint to pass up shots that I should have,but as a teenager,I too had more confidence than I should have had.I also couldn't afford the ammunition to practice.However as I grew older,I soon learned how poor most people are at judging range,and I became more respectful of the animals that I hunt,so I learned restraint.I also started reloading,and could then afford the cost of practicing my shooting.

I don't claim to be any long range wizard.I don't even consider myself a true long range shooter.I have a self imposed limit on game animals of about 500 yards,and I routinely practice out to 550 yards,which is not what many people consider to be long range shooting.However,I do watch enough of the self proclaimed long range shooters at our local range,and they aren't nearly as competent as they think they are.Many of them rarely shoot at targets past 200 yards,and when they do,they only shoot off of a bench,and they often misjudge the wind.Many of them are where I was ,when I was in my teens,except most of them can afford the cost of ammunition to practice,if they choose to do so.

I know my limits and I know what my gun can do and I kill everything I've shot at as far back as my memory will serve me.

I guess that is why,by your own admission, you miss nearly as many animals as you hit at longer ranges.

And I think there's a lot more of ''me's'' out there than ''you's'' .

Unfortunately,I believe that you are correct.There are a lot of people that miss nearly as many animals as they hit,or more,and unfortunately,they wound quite a few as well.I don't miss nearly that many shots,but then again,I pass up the shot if the wind is too strong or unpredictable,or if the animal doesn't offer a shot that I consider acceptable to me.I would rather pass up a shot,than take a risky shot and wound an animal.

There are a number of people at our local range that do more long range shooting than I do,and as result,they will take shots that I choose to pass on.They are the people that I consider to be true long range shooters.But those same people shoot thousands of rounds at longer distances every year,while my longer range shots can be measured in the hundreds.Those people know their capabilities,and I know mine.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Actually that is not what myself or some other people read into his posts.We are reading that he feels that the new technology can take the place of much of the practicing and experience that it takes to make a competent long range shooter.



.

And it can.....

Originally Posted by canadianbigbuck

Thanks Sheep for trying to explain that most long range shooters indeed are willing to put in the time and effort into doing it right, thats were I'm at.
Just doing my research right now, I thought.

No problem.....I like to think the majority of people on this board aren't complete morons with no experience or knowledge about shooting....I find I'm typically correct. Others automatically assume they are......

[elkhunter11]

No problem.....I like to think the majority of people on this board aren't complete morons with no experience or knowledge about shooting....I find I'm typically correct.

I find that the people on this board and other similar boards are in fact,on average much more competent shooters than the majority of the general public.We have a large cross section of hunters and shooters that share a lot of experience that isn't so common among many hunters and shooters.

That being the case,there are still a fair number of people that like to over simplify reloading and long range shooting.

There are still people that are mystified when the so called "most accurate load" listed in a manual,isn't the most accurate load in their gun.They still think that any load listed in a manual will be safe in their gun.

Many people still fail to comprehend how critical wind drift is at longer ranges,and they aren't capable at compensating for it.They fail to understand why their gun was shooting dead on last summer a +20 degrees,and the ballistic reticle seemed dead on,but now at -20degrees,the reticle suddenly seems out of calibration.

If you take the time to learn reloading and ballistics,these things are easily explained,but many people simply don't currently have the education or the experience,to understand these concepts.

Yes technology like laser rangefinders are very useful,and they do greatly help us by eliminating errors in range estimation,but technology can't always replace knowledge and experience.If you don't know why that ballistic reticle seems to be out of calibration now,you aren't going to know how to re calibrate it,or how to compensate for the calibration error,given the present conditions.

[Mountain Guy]

I guess that is why,by your own admission, you miss nearly as many animals as you hit at longer ranges.



I don't recall stating this ^^
I also understand that the ''long range'' shooters are in it for the new dynamic or challenge if you will.
I'm not there yet and probably never will ( well maybe after I retire and have the time) in the mean time I'll keep filling the freezer the way I do now.
Oh, and I don't remember the last time I had to take a shot over 300yrds...maybe 15 years ago I'm guessing.

Just a question....
What do the long range fanatics do when an animal steps out at 300yrds?
Do they run backwards?
Maybe jump in the truck and hit reverse?

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Yes technology like laser rangefinders are very useful,and they do greatly help us by eliminating errors in range estimation,but technology can't always replace knowledge and experience..

Never said it replaced it....I agreed when you said you were reading into what I said that it took the place of much of it...I never said nor implied that it replaced all or perhps you were reading that into it as well? Technology takes the place of much of that pratice...how about we stick with that.....it'll save you reading a lot of things into what I write.

[elkhunter11]

I never said nor implied that it replaced all

Neither did I.There is no "all" in the statement that you quoted.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Just a question....
What do the long range fanatics do when an animal steps out at 300yrds?
Do they run backwards?
Maybe jump in the truck and hit reverse?

Well, some hunters that tend to shoot at long range simply shoot the critter, if that is the one they want.
Others are set up with transit mounted long range match rifles in big cartridges, and are only looking for a 1,100 yard + shot, so they would pass that one because they cannot move the rifle that easy.
These guys are typically shooting across larger clear cuts, etc.
the Wimbledon rifle club members regularly do this.
I shot a deer at 35 paces one with a 12lb.long range rifle that was zeroed at 500 yards - it's not that difficult if you can turn down the power ring from 32X to 8X, :>)
Cat

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Well, some hunters that tend to shoot at long range simply shoot the critter, if that is the one they want.
Others are set up with transit mounted long range match rifles in big cartridges, and are only looking for a 1,100 yard + shot, so they would pass that one because they cannot move the rifle that easy.
These guys are typically shooting across larger clear cuts, etc.
the Wimbledon rifle club members regularly do this.
I shot a deer at 35 paces one with a 12lb.long range rifle that was zeroed at 500 yards - it's not that difficult if you can turn down the power ring from 32X to 8X, :>)
Cat

Geez Cat....
yur supposed to have you scope turned down.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Geez Cat....
yur supposed to have you scope turned down.

Well , the gun was already up , and so was the front objective- easier to turn it down than to turn it up when the original idea was to get a long shot, I guess!!
Cat

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Neither did I.There is no "all" in the statement that you quoted.

The word "replaced" is kind of like the word "pregnant"...it's all or nothing.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Well , the gun was already up , and so was the front objective- easier to turn it down than to turn it up when the original idea was to get a long shot, I guess!!
Cat

Your not coughing,burping and farting enough.
Give them a chance to smell you and your wish may be granted !!