Archery Mule Deer Draw for 2013 Season?

[Pudelpointer]

Jryley, Potty and others can respond to your statements as they see fit, however I don't think you truly understand.

The decision to put MD on draw for archery is based on very limited, very suspect information. People who think bow hunters are impacting populations of MD (or any big game species for that matter) have no idea what goes on during bow season.... the absurdity of some statements on this thread is unbelievable. If the consequences of such beliefs wasn't so significant, I would laugh.

I will conceded that in a handful of zones the number of mule deer harvested exceeds the arbitrary threshold of 15%. To that I say "so what?". In >95% of WMUs the rifle harvest of all big game species exceeds 85%, yet there are no bow hunters on here endlessly bit**ing and whining that there should be fewer rifle tags given out so that the archery harvest is closer to 15%.

Close MD for 2 years from any harvest by any stakeholders to allow the populations to rebuild? Sure, why not? At least it is equitable.


I have said this a dozen times before, but I will say it again...

Bow hunting is not anything like rifle hunting. A bow hunt begins where a rifle hunt ends... at around 300 yards. There are a handful of people who consistently take trophy animals, sometimes for a number of years in a row; but we are truly talking about a handful; the issue is: you hear about them, everyone hears about them! There are also a small percentage if people who take smaller animals (bucks, does, cows, calves) every year with their bows. However, the number of animals taken by the above groups of hunters is still only a fraction of what is taken during the general season (and likely only a fraction of the 15% that is "allowed" to be taken by bow hunters).


I am only really interested in taking large MD bucks with my bow, and have let walk probably close to 50 medium sized bucks, and hundreds of does, that were dead had I wanted them to be. In 8 bow seasons in AB I have taken one MD buck, just one. It took me 4 years of hunting a good area, with a good number of big deer, to get that buck. I fully assume that it will take another 4 years of hunting before I get a clear shot at another deer that I want.

So, for me, I may take 1 mule deer buck every 4 years with a bow, IF I HUNT EVERY YEAR. If I can only hunt every 2 years, it may take me 8 years to get one. Drawn every 3rd year, maybe one buck every 12 years in the freezer.

If I am forced to choose between applying for a general weapons season draw OR a bow season draw, which one do you think 98.7% of hunters will apply for? I guarantee the priority for many WMUs is going to go up if draw seasons are not set up like they are for Antelope, with separate general weapon and archery draw tags that one can build priority in simultaneously. I have a number of friends who do not currently put in for AMD draws because they are only interested in bow hunting them. If MD goes on draw all these hunters will be putting in as well; do you want them applying in your zone, in your season?

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Jryley, Potty and others can respond to your statements as they see fit, however I don't think you truly understand.

The decision to put MD on draw for archery is based on very limited, very suspect information. People who think bow hunters are impacting populations of MD (or any big game species for that matter) have no idea what goes on during bow season.... the absurdity of some statements on this thread is unbelievable. If the consequences of such beliefs wasn't so significant, I would laugh.

I will conceded that in a handful of zones the number of mule deer harvested exceeds the arbitrary threshold of 15%. To that I say "so what?". In >95% of WMUs the rifle harvest of all big game species exceeds 85%, yet there are no bow hunters on here endlessly bit**ing and whining that there should be
fewer rifle tags given out so that the archery harvest is closer to 15%.

Close MD for 2 years from any harvest by any stakeholders to allow the populations to rebuild? Sure, why not? At least it is equitable.


I have said this a dozen times before, but I will say it again...

Bow hunting is not anything like rifle hunting. A bow hunt begins where a rifle hunt ends... at around 300 yards. There are a handful of people who consistently take trophy animals, sometimes for a number of years in a row; but we are truly talking about a handful; the issue is: you hear about them, everyone hears about them! There are also a small percentage if people who
take smaller animals (bucks, does, cows, calves) every year with their bows. However, the number of animals taken by the above groups of hunters is still
only a fraction of what is taken during the general season (and likely only a fraction of the 15% that is "allowed" to be taken by bow hunters).


I am only really interested in taking large MD bucks with my bow, and have let walk probably close to 50 medium sized bucks, and hundreds of does, that
were dead had I wanted them to be. In 8 bow seasons in AB I have taken one MD buck, just one. It took me 4 years of hunting a good area, with a good number of big deer, to get that buck. I fully assume that it will take another 4 years of hunting before I get a clear shot at another deer that I want.


So, for me, I may take 1 mule deer buck every 4 years with a bow, IF I HUNT EVERY YEAR. If I can only hunt every 2 years, it may take me 8 years to get one. Drawn every 3rd year, maybe one buck every 12 years in the freezer.

If I am forced to choose between applying for a general weapons season draw OR a bow season draw, which one do you think 98.7% of hunters will apply for? I guarantee the priority for many WMUs is going to go up if draw seasons are not set up like they are for Antelope, with separate general
weapon and archery draw tags that one can build priority in simultaneously. I have a number of friends who do not currently put in for AMD draws because they are only interested in bow hunting them. If MD goes on draw all these hunters will be putting in as well; do you want them applying in your zone, in your season?

I agree 100 %

Plus like I said before in post #449 , landowners will benefit from, new tags available in those zones.

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Jryley, Potty and others can respond to your statements as they see fit, however I don't think you truly understand.

The decision to put MD on draw for archery is based on very limited, very suspect information. People who think bow hunters are impacting populations of MD (or any big game species for that matter) have no idea what goes on during bow season.... the absurdity of some statements on this thread is unbelievable. If the consequences of such beliefs wasn't so significant, I would laugh.

I will conceded that in a handful of zones the number of mule deer harvested exceeds the arbitrary threshold of 15%. To that I say "so what?". In >95% of WMUs the rifle harvest of all big game species exceeds 85%, yet there are no bow hunters on here endlessly bit**ing and whining that there should be fewer rifle tags given out so that the archery harvest is closer to 15%.

Close MD for 2 years from any harvest by any stakeholders to allow the populations to rebuild? Sure, why not? At least it is equitable.


I have said this a dozen times before, but I will say it again...

Bow hunting is not anything like rifle hunting. A bow hunt begins where a rifle hunt ends... at around 300 yards. There are a handful of people who consistently take trophy animals, sometimes for a number of years in a row; but we are truly talking about a handful; the issue is: you hear about them, everyone hears about them! There are also a small percentage if people who take smaller animals (bucks, does, cows, calves) every year with their bows. However, the number of animals taken by the above groups of hunters is still only a fraction of what is taken during the general season (and likely only a fraction of the 15% that is "allowed" to be taken by bow hunters).


I am only really interested in taking large MD bucks with my bow, and have let walk probably close to 50 medium sized bucks, and hundreds of does, that were dead had I wanted them to be. In 8 bow seasons in AB I have taken one MD buck, just one. It took me 4 years of hunting a good area, with a good number of big deer, to get that buck. I fully assume that it will take another 4 years of hunting before I get a clear shot at another deer that I want.

So, for me, I may take 1 mule deer buck every 4 years with a bow, IF I HUNT EVERY YEAR. If I can only hunt every 2 years, it may take me 8 years to get one. Drawn every 3rd year, maybe one buck every 12 years in the freezer.

If I am forced to choose between applying for a general weapons season draw OR a bow season draw, which one do you think 98.7% of hunters will apply for? I guarantee the priority for many WMUs is going to go up if draw seasons are not set up like they are for Antelope, with separate general weapon and archery draw tags that one can build priority in simultaneously. I have a number of friends who do not currently put in for AMD draws because they are only interested in bow hunting them. If MD goes on draw all these hunters will be putting in as well; do you want them applying in your zone, in your season?

Well spoken.

[jryley]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Jryley, Potty and others can respond to your statements as they see fit, however I don't think you truly understand.

The decision to put MD on draw for archery is based on very limited, very suspect information. People who think bow hunters are impacting populations of MD (or any big game species for that matter) have no idea what goes on during bow season.... the absurdity of some statements on this thread is unbelievable. If the consequences of such beliefs wasn't so significant, I would laugh.

I will conceded that in a handful of zones the number of mule deer harvested exceeds the arbitrary threshold of 15%. To that I say "so what?". In >95% of WMUs the rifle harvest of all big game species exceeds 85%, yet there are no bow hunters on here endlessly bit**ing and whining that there should be fewer rifle tags given out so that the archery harvest is closer to 15%.

Close MD for 2 years from any harvest by any stakeholders to allow the populations to rebuild? Sure, why not? At least it is equitable.


I have said this a dozen times before, but I will say it again...

Bow hunting is not anything like rifle hunting. A bow hunt begins where a rifle hunt ends... at around 300 yards. There are a handful of people who consistently take trophy animals, sometimes for a number of years in a row; but we are truly talking about a handful; the issue is: you hear about them, everyone hears about them! There are also a small percentage if people who take smaller animals (bucks, does, cows, calves) every year with their bows. However, the number of animals taken by the above groups of hunters is still only a fraction of what is taken during the general season (and likely only a fraction of the 15% that is "allowed" to be taken by bow hunters).


I am only really interested in taking large MD bucks with my bow, and have let walk probably close to 50 medium sized bucks, and hundreds of does, that were dead had I wanted them to be. In 8 bow seasons in AB I have taken one MD buck, just one. It took me 4 years of hunting a good area, with a good number of big deer, to get that buck. I fully assume that it will take another 4 years of hunting before I get a clear shot at another deer that I want.

So, for me, I may take 1 mule deer buck every 4 years with a bow, IF I HUNT EVERY YEAR. If I can only hunt every 2 years, it may take me 8 years to get one. Drawn every 3rd year, maybe one buck every 12 years in the freezer.

If I am forced to choose between applying for a general weapons season draw OR a bow season draw, which one do you think 98.7% of hunters will apply for? I guarantee the priority for many WMUs is going to go up if draw seasons are not set up like they are for Antelope, with separate general weapon and archery draw tags that one can build priority in simultaneously. I have a number of friends who do not currently put in for AMD draws because they are only interested in bow hunting them. If MD goes on draw all these hunters will be putting in as well; do you want them applying in your zone, in your season?

pudel you made a couple statements there basically outlining my arguement. I have yet to see one guy on here saying to put archery on draw to boost rifle harvest. Again, dividing the lines. What guys like myself
Have said is put them both, or close both seasons entirely to get the populations back up. Youre putting a spin on my tale that has nothing to do with what ive said.

'some zones exceed the 15% - so what'. Complete garbage statement. I would say my zone is one of those 'few'. Which effects me more than it effects you...and frankly my zone is what i have the most interest in. If the 15% is exceeded then i feel my thoughts are valid.

If you throw one empty coffee cup out your window does
It really have an effect on the environment? No. But we all do our part and help spread the message that something needs to be done. Pudel youre doing the exact same thing that most bow hunters i know do, regardless as to whether their/our bow brethren are actually at fault, and that is
Point fingers. Youre convuluding a very simple arguement
In my eyes, as you seem to have missed my
Point......shut
It down in my zone, if not province wide, for bow, primitive, landowner, rifle, slingshot, dynamite etc etc etc etc to feed the greater cause. How anyone can take that statement and somewhat agree, as long as its not archery season blows my
Mind and furthers many rifle only guys view that bow hunters seem to have an idea of self entitlement. In my eyes harvest numbers are a complete gong show arguement. 1. Theyll never be accurate. 2. 15% harvest means jack all. If only 5% mule are taken of that 15% but those 5% were trophy
Animals taken in a struggling zone then thats an issue. Its not hard to comprehend! As ive stated numerous times on
This thread....if that LIMITED bow harvest is eliminated, along with the excessive rifle harvest, we are much further along to not only restoring effective numbers of mule deer, but quality animals as well than if we are solely to focus on only the rifle harvest. I refer back to the analogy i gave of the two individuals putting money aside for a downpayment. It holds true, as our goal should not be whats going to work in the short term, but whats the BEST equity plan for the longterm viability of our game species.

If i need to dumb it down here it is. Mule deer numbers are down in my zone. Abismal actually. Do we act as a community and make it better? Or do we segregate select individuals and leave it up to them? The answer is pretty clear.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by jryley

pudel you made a couple statements there basically outlining my arguement. I have yet to see one guy on here saying to put archery on draw to boost rifle harvest. Again, dividing the lines. What guys like myself
Have said is put them both, or close both seasons entirely to get the populations back up. Youre putting a spin on my tale that has nothing to do with what ive said.

'some zones exceed the 15% - so what'. Complete garbage statement. I would say my zone is one of those 'few'. Which effects me more than it effects you...and frankly my zone is what i have the most interest in. If the 15% is exceeded then i feel my thoughts are valid.

If you throw one empty coffee cup out your window does
It really have an effect on the environment? No. But we all do our part and help spread the message that something needs to be done. Pudel youre doing the exact same thing that most bow hunters i know do, regardless as to whether their/our bow brethren are actually at fault, and that is
Point fingers. Youre convuluding a very simple arguement
In my eyes, as you seem to have missed my
Point......shut
It down in my zone, if not province wide, for bow, primitive, landowner, rifle, slingshot, dynamite etc etc etc etc to feed the greater cause. How anyone can take that statement and somewhat agree, as long as its not archery season blows my
Mind and furthers many rifle only guys view that bow hunters seem to have an idea of self entitlement. In my eyes harvest numbers are a complete gong show arguement. 1. Theyll never be accurate. 2. 15% harvest means jack all.
If only 5% mule are taken of that 15% but those 5% were trophy
Animals taken in a struggling zone then thats an issue. Its not hard to comprehend! As ive stated numerous times on
This thread....if that LIMITED bow harvest is eliminated, along with the excessive rifle harvest, we are much further along to not only restoring effective numbers of mule deer, but quality animals as well than if we are solely to focus on only the rifle harvest. I refer back to the analogy i gave of the two individuals putting money aside for a downpayment. It holds true, as our goal should not be whats going to work in the short term, but whats the BEST equity plan for the longterm viability of our game species.

If i need to dumb it down here it is. Mule deer numbers are down in my zone. Abismal actually. Do we act as a community and make it better? Or do we segregate select individuals and leave it up to them? The answer is pretty
clear.

But bowhunters aren't the reason why your zone is suffering! Punishing an entire province, because of one bad apple? Maybe, get your bio to close your zone for coupe of years. We have an over abidance in the zones I hunt, most I've seen in years.

[jryley]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

But bowhunters aren't the reason why your zone is suffering! Punishing an entire province, because of one bad apple? Maybe, get your bio to close your zone for coupe of years. We have an over abidance in the zones I hunt, most I've seen in years.

Valid point about your zone having a strong population! That is where my arguement is flawed! I conceed that! But again, as tunnel
Visioned as it is, i only see whats going on in 232. Thats where my
Cabin is, and thats where i shoot all my game. So i acknowledge that!

I think we have a bit of a miscommunication in our discussion....never said bowhunters are at fault! I did say that any mule harvesting in my zone could further the decline of mule! Im saying streamline
It, speed up the process, and just make the nule recovery happen!

And to further, i do agree rifle and landowner are the main causes. But again, every little bit helps.

*on a side note, im calling it now. If priority goes down, 232 will suffer the same with moose and elk. I give the moose 8 years, and heaven forbid if they ever up the tag draws for elk....they will last 8 yrs max.

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

But bowhunters aren't the reason why your zone is suffering! Punishing an entire province, because of one bad apple? Maybe, get your bio to close your zone for coupe of years. We have an over abidance in the zones I hunt, most I've seen in years.

Exactly.

When a zone gets hammered for the better part of a decade with buck tags going from a consistent 140-160 all the way above 500 and doe tags mirror that, then you will see the problem with the population. In that same zone you drop the buck and doe tags down to 10 a piece you will see why numbers are screwy. In those zones you take 2 bucks and 2 does with a bow and you get 20% of the harvest. very misleading. Those 4 deer will have virtually ZERO effect on future populations. Hell, deer hit by vehicles has a bigger effect. cutting rifle tags to 10 is basically shutting it down. Populations are already rebounding nicely with twice the sightings of last year. Putting bow on draw is a knee jerk reaction at its finest and is a larger fundamental shift in hunting systems then some people realize. When populations rebound and rifle tags come up, do you honestly believe they will remove the draw? not a friggen chance!!!

[MOAhunter]

Pudelpointer, I agree with you. This must be handled as a split draw like antelope, or trophy quality will plummet even further.

There are a lot of different ways this should have been handled.
1. Get better data.
2. Adopt Saskatchewan's method, no outfitter tags on private land and residents only.
3. Assess this on individual basis for each WMU.

In the South Western WMU's where I hunt (I'm not speaking for all the province here as I really don't know, I'll only comment where I actually do know), the archery draw has long been overdue. When you personally know the game processors, many of the enthusiastic resident hunters and landowners, the world of trophy MD becomes rather small. And from this I can tell you that once rifle season comes the majority of the best bucks have already been taken by archers. Increasing the problem, rifle hunters that have waited 4 to 5 years to get drawn are taking more medium sized bucks, because the archers typically get the best ones in the earlier season. It's easy to see how rifle hunters and archers are conflicting. Rifle hunters blame the archers for less giants and the archers are annoyed with rifle hunters shooting less than mature bucks.
SRD is giving a poor solution at best, but it should help improve trophy quality in a couple WMUs.
I'm not going to make any friends by saying this, "Ideally, there shouldn't even be a rifle season for Trophy Mule Deer. Trophy Mule Deer should be an archery only species."
Let's be honest for a moment - When you're holding a coveted trophy MD rifle tag, it becomes shopping for a buck and not so much hunting anymore. Can't say I've ever got one with the rifle where the bow wouldn't have worked too, only it would have have been a lot more work, although more satisfying and sporting to say I did it with the bow.

[jryley]

Good post!

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by jryley

Valid point about your zone having a strong population! That is where my arguement is flawed! I conceed that! But again, as tunnel
Visioned as it is, i only see whats going on in 232. Thats where my
Cabin is, and thats where i shoot all my game. So i acknowledge that!

I think we have a bit of a miscommunication in our discussion....never said bowhunters are at fault! I did say that any mule harvesting in my zone could further the decline of mule! Im saying streamline
It, speed up the process, and just make the nule recovery happen!

And to further, i do agree rifle and landowner are the main causes. But again, every little bit helps.

*on a side note, im calling it now. If priority goes down, 232 will suffer the same with moose and elk. I give the moose 8 years, and heaven forbid if they ever up the tag draws for elk....they will last 8 yrs max.

It seems to me that you want to bring in sweeping changes to an entire province and a certain group of hunters, all because your home zone is in bad shape. Unfortunately, these changes will only make you feel better, not help your situation.

[jryley]

Nope! Not at all! If you tookthe time to read the discussion instead of trolling youd see i wantchange for all hunter groups, not just one group. Infact youjust stated exactly what i personally dont want.

Saying that shutting down the mule season in myzone across the board wouldnt make a difference other than 'make me feel better' lacks intelligience.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by MOAhunter

Pudelpointer, I agree with you. This must be handled as a split draw like antelope, or trophy quality will plummet even further.

There are a lot of different ways this should have been handled.
1. Get better data.
2. Adopt Saskatchewan's method, no outfitter tags on private land and residents only.
3. Assess this on individual basis for each WMU.

In the South Western WMU's where I hunt (I'm not speaking for all the province here as I really don't know, I'll only comment where I actually do know), the archery draw has long been overdue. When you personally know the game processors, many of the enthusiastic resident hunters and landowners, the world of trophy MD becomes rather small. And from this I can tell you that once rifle season comes the majority of the best bucks have already been taken by archers. Increasing the problem, rifle hunters that have waited 4 to 5 years to get drawn are taking more medium sized bucks, because the archers typically get the best ones in the earlier season. It's easy to see how rifle hunters and archers are conflicting. Rifle hunters blame the archers for less giants and the archers are annoyed with rifle hunters shooting less than mature bucks.
SRD is giving a poor solution at best, but it should help improve trophy quality in a couple WMUs.
I'm not going to make any friends by saying this, "Ideally, there shouldn't even be a rifle season for Trophy Mule Deer. Trophy Mule Deer should be an archery only species."
Let's be honest for a moment - When you're holding a coveted trophy MD rifle
tag, it becomes shopping for a buck and not so much hunting anymore. Can't say I've ever got one with the rifle where the bow wouldn't have worked too, only it would have have been a lot more work, although more satisfying and sporting to say I did it with the bow.

Esrd does not care about trophy bucks or quality. They've stated this many times. They manage hunters to ensure quantity, nothing more. The only trophy management accepted by esrd, is for bighorns.

As much as I would love to see things done for trophy size, it will never happen in this province, unless some major restructuring occurs, especially up the ladder

[Torkdiesel]

As I stated a month ago the solution seems overly simple.

Cut the land owner tags back !
Cut the outfitter tags back !
Put archery mule deer on draw !

Make it so you can only apply for one or the other ( bow or rifle )

Dedicated bow hunters would get the draw almost every year if not every year because rifle hunters are not going to stop applying for rifle tags.

The only way to effectively control the number of animals killed is to limit the number of licenses issued.

If the mule deer numbers are still great in your zone then there should be plenty of tags. If the numbers are down like in my zones there will be less tags.

Everybody shares the burdon equally. When the numbers rebound there will be plenty of tags for all the dedicated archery hunters.

[Pudelpointer]

Even better Tork, lets put every species on draw, end all outfitter/guide allocations, and make all wildlife the property of the landowner.....


Since the simplest solution for you is o limit the number of licenses issued, by how much should rifle tags be reduced? Since rifle hunters take the vast majority of all animals, of all classes, of all species it only makes sense that rifle tags should be reduced the most.



Jryley, you're being a bit of a di*k. No needy to "dumb it down" for us, just write clearly. No need to call others ignorant or stupid, just make your argument; if it is a well thought out idea, then it will be respected, if it has holes then they will be pointed out.

For the record, I clearly stated I would support closing the season across the board if that would address the issue.

You say no one is saying put archery on draw to increase rifle opportunities...... really? Come on, that is exactly what people are saying. The reasons given so far include:

Bow hunters are killing all the trophy bucks

Bow hunters are killing all the small bucks

Bow hunters kill a mule deer every year because they are too stupid (the deer, not the hunters)

Bow hunters are exceeding their 15% allotment

Bow hunter can't be trusted around your children.....



Okay, I made the last one up, but the others are being said because rifle (mostly) hunters are complaining that the wait in their zone is too long = need more tags, or there are not enough big bucks in their zone = need others to stop killing big bucks.

If there is a problem in a specific zone (again, I don't give a rat's bumhole if 15% is exceeded in your zone or not), then reduce EVERYONE'S take (see, I agree with you). If that means putting archery on draw, then I am okay with it. However, we need solid data on success rates of archers (ESRDs data is not defensible IMO and many others) to set the appropriate number of tags. If 20% of archers are successful (likely) then to achieve 15% of the harvest, 5x that many archery tags need to be issued.

Lets explore this idea: 100 AMD are targeted in a zone, this means 15 of those tags should be TAKEN by archers. Using our 20% success rate, there should be 75 tags available. Rifle success rate is, for sake of argument, 60%. Using these numbers there would be 142 tags for the general season.

By the way, this is how our wildlife quotas are set and tags allocated. The numbers used for general weapons draw seasons are probably different, but that is the type of data required for "controlled harvest" hunts.

If you and ESRD are okay with using the proper data, to calculate the proper number of tags, then I have no doubt that one could easily get drawn (for archery) yearly, or at most (in a handful of zones) every second year in the vast majority of zones. If that is the case... what the heck is the point of puttin it on draw in the first place!?!?!?

[hunted]

Bow hunters could also be called loop hole hunters. They all got into it because it gives them special treatment. Why do they get to hunt first every single year when bucks can be patterned, why are they the only ones that get to shoot a velvet buck, why do they get months to hunt in nice weather, why can they get a general tag. I think every other year the seasons should be reversed or just mix everyone together.

No I don't bow hunt but the only reason I ever will is for this special VIP treatment. And yes I stand hunt, blind hunt and stalk and all my last few deer have been taken at way less than 100 yards.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by jryley

.

*on a side note, im calling it now. If priority goes down, 232 will suffer the same with moose and elk. I give the moose 8 years, and heaven forbid if they ever up the tag draws for elk....they will last 8 yrs max.

I am sorry, but this needs to be discussed.

The priority required to get drawn for any specific tag is in direct relation to how many tags are available and the number if applicants. The number if tags available is set in direct relation to the target harvest of the species and class (in this discussion, Antlered Mule Deer). The target harvest is set in relation to the zone's population of that class of animal, and the % harvest desired is different for each species (you need more (as a %) male Mountain Goats to breed available females then you do male elk), as well as political factors (like vehicle impacts, agricultural depridation, etc.).

So, there are only three ways priority will go down in a specific zone: 1) there are more animals available, 2) there are fewer people applying for the same number of tags, or 3) the area biologist decides that there are too many animals available and they want a higher harvest rate then what is determined to be maximum sustained harvest rate.

[jryley]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Even better Tork, lets put every species on draw, end all outfitter/guide allocations, and make all wildlife the property of the landowner.....


Since the simplest solution for you is o limit the number of licenses issued, by how much should rifle tags be reduced? Since rifle hunters take the vast majority of all animals, of all classes, of all species it only makes sense that rifle tags should be reduced the most.



Jryley, you're being a bit of a di*k. No needy to "dumb it down" for us, just write clearly. No need to call others ignorant or stupid, just make your argument; if it is a well thought out idea, then it will be respected, if it has holes then they will be pointed out.

For the record, I clearly stated I would support closing the season across the board if that would address the issue.

You say no one is saying put archery on draw to increase rifle opportunities...... really? Come on, that is exactly what people are saying. The reasons given so far include:

Bow hunters are killing all the trophy bucks

Bow hunters are killing all the small bucks

Bow hunters kill a mule deer every year because they are too stupid (the deer, not the hunters)

Bow hunters are exceeding their 15% allotment

Bow hunter can't be trusted around your children.....



Okay, I made the last one up, but the others are being said because rifle (mostly) hunters are complaining that the wait in their zone is too long = need more tags, or there are not enough big bucks in their zone = need others to stop killing big bucks.

If there is a problem in a specific zone (again, I don't give a rat's bumhole if 15% is exceeded in your zone or not), then reduce EVERYONE'S take (see, I agree with you). If that means putting archery on draw, then I am okay with it. However, we need solid data on success rates of archers (ESRDs data is not defensible IMO and many others) to set the appropriate number of tags. If 20% of archers are successful (likely) then to achieve 15% of the harvest, 5x that many archery tags need to be issued.

Lets explore this idea: 100 AMD are targeted in a zone, this means 15 of those tags should be TAKEN by archers. Using our 20% success rate, there should be 75 tags available. Rifle success rate is, for sake of argument, 60%. Using these numbers there would be 142 tags for the general season.

By the way, this is how our wildlife quotas are set and tags allocated. The numbers used for general weapons draw seasons are probably different, but that is the type of data required for "controlled harvest" hunts.

If you and ESRD are okay with using the proper data, to calculate the proper number of tags, then I have no doubt that one could easily get drawn (for archery) yearly, or at most (in a handful of zones) every second year in the vast majority of zones. If that is the case... what the heck is the point of puttin it on draw in the first place!?!?!?

Really man! What a mess. When
Did i personally ever say limit archery to benefit rifle? Gimme a break. At what point did i ever call anyone ignorant? Fact of the matter is is there is a divide between the rifle community and bow community. Until EVERYONE accepts accountability, whether valid or not, nothing will be achieved. Your arguement cleeearly states you are fine with a lifelong divide between said factions, which honestly is a joke and lacks judgement. I hunt both archery and rifle. I see both sides, but some guys i know that go with one or the other dontsee it from both sides. I know plenty of rifle hunters that archery guys areself righteous, and plenty of guys that hunt bow and think rifle hunters are plugs with no skill. Until one or both sides 'becomes the bigger man' it will stay the same

[jryley]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

I am sorry, but this needs to be discussed.

The priority required to get drawn for any specific tag is in direct relation to how many tags are available and the number if applicants. The number if tags available is set in direct relation to the target harvest of the species and class (in this discussion, Antlered Mule Deer). The target harvest is set in relation to the zone's population of that class of animal, and the % harvest desired is different for each species (you need more (as a %) male Mountain Goats to breed available females then you do male elk), as well as political factors (like vehicle impacts, agricultural depridation, etc.).

So, there are only three ways priority will go down in a specific zone: 1) there are more animals available, 2) there are fewer people applying for the same number of tags, or 3) the area biologist decides that there are too many animals available and they want a higher harvest rate then what is determined to be maximum sustained harvest rate.

lol pudel your statements are beyond a disaster. In one breath you state srds numbers determine draw numbers....and in the same breath state srds numbers are BS. 232 is on elk draw. When drawn in232 for elk you also are drawn for a grouping of wmus. So if 230 has an excess of elk, and
You get drawn, you could legally go hunt the one or two herds of elk floating around in 232....therefore, and intheory, within
A few seasons said minimal herds could be eradicated in, for example, 232.

Stop posting man

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by hunted

Bow hunters could also be called loop hole hunters. They all got into it because it gives them special treatment. Why do they get to hunt first every single year when bucks can be patterned, why are they the only ones that get to shoot a velvet buck, why do they get months to hunt in nice weather, why can they get a general tag. I think every other year the seasons should be reversed or just mix everyone together.

No I don't bow hunt but the only reason I ever will is for this special VIP treatment. And yes I stand hunt, blind hunt and stalk and all my last few deer have been taken at way less than 100 yards.

Many of us started bow hunting (and continue to bow hunt) because it provides a challenge. Once you have stalked to within 35 yards of a big mule deer, you will realize that rifle hunting most Muley bucks is just not that difficult (my opinion only). As others have said, it can be more of a shopping trip then a hunt.

If I had to choose whether to bow or rifle hunt for each species I would choose to bow hunt Mule Deer, Elk, an Black Bear, and rifle hunt everything else. Why? Because bow hunting them is a challenge, rifle hunting them is mostly meat for the freezer. Yes, I could hold out for only 190" muleys or only 350" elk, but that becomes more about just finding that class of animal; once found the odds are pretty good the hunt is almost over.

Bow hunting is about challenge; challenging the animals eyes, ears and nose, and challenging your own abilities, like the ability to move quiet, to move faster - or slower, to remain motionless for hours, to crawl through a cactus patch without a trip to the emergency room. It isn't just about longer seasons.

You ask why archers get a long season, why they hunt earlier, why they get a chance when deer can be patterned (by the way, not many big mule deer bucks can be patterned), etc., etc. The only reason is simple, because bow hunting is very much more difficult then rifle hunting, even if you can shoot all your deer at close range with a rifle. Try it and you will understand; heck I have a couple older compound bows here that I will loan, to any rifle hunters who think bow hunting is easy, for as many years as it takes for them to take a big mule deer buck.

This is a serious offer.

[jryley]

There is absolutely nothing forcing you to pull the trigger on a
Rifle at anything beyond 35 yards. BS arguement. Get into
The bush with your rifle and set your limit at 20 yards, beyondthat you
Dont shoot. Garbage garbage statement again!!

You bow hunt because it extends your season and
You know it.

I too lile the challenge, but in all honesty itallows me to
Hunt september, when its hot.

[Icefisher2885]

Originally Posted by hunted

Bow hunters could also be called loop hole hunters. They all got into it because it gives them special treatment. Why do they get to hunt first every single year when bucks can be patterned, why are they the only ones that get to shoot a velvet buck, why do they get months to hunt in nice weather, why can they get a general tag. I think every other year the seasons should be reversed or just mix everyone together.

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this message board, and that is saying something. This is a troll, right? You should by stock in kleenex, I can't imagine how much tissue you need to mop of those tears.

Yes, everyone who bow hunts does so because it gives them special treatment. Absolute only reason. None of us who bow hunt do so because we prefer it to rifle hunting, think it is more fun, or just like to shoot bows more than we like to shoot guns.

I swear I'm like a trout in pond sometimes, I just can't help but take the bait.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Icefisher2885

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this message board, and that is saying something. This is a troll, right? You should by stock in kleenex, I can't imagine how much tissue you need to mop of those tears.

Yes, everyone who bow hunts does so because it gives them special treatment. Absolute only reason. None of us who bow hunt do so because we prefer it to rifle hunting, think it is more fun, or just like to shoot bows more than we like to shoot guns.

I swear I'm like a trout in pond sometimes, I just can't help but take the bait.

The sad part is everybody focuses on a truly retarded post like this. (The guy you quoted) and has forgotten about the real reason the thread was started. I gave a valid solution that is fair across the board for all groups. All groups sacrifice across the board for the sake of the animals. Not picking on one group or playing the me me me game.

[hunted]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Many of us started bow hunting (and continue to bow hunt) because it provides a challenge. Once you have stalked to within 35 yards of a big mule deer, you will realize that rifle hunting most Muley bucks is just not that difficult (my opinion only). As others have said, it can be more of a shopping trip then a hunt.

If I had to choose whether to bow or rifle hunt for each species I would choose to bow hunt Mule Deer, Elk, an Black Bear, and rifle hunt everything else. Why? Because bow hunting them is a challenge, rifle hunting them is mostly meat for the freezer. Yes, I could hold out for only 190" muleys or only 350" elk, but that becomes more about just finding that class of animal; once found the odds are pretty good the hunt is almost over.

Bow hunting is about challenge; challenging the animals eyes, ears and nose, and challenging your own abilities, like the ability to move quiet, to move faster - or slower, to remain motionless for hours, to crawl through a cactus patch without a trip to the emergency room. It isn't just about longer seasons.

You ask why archers get a long season, why they hunt earlier, why they get a chance when deer can be patterned (by the way, not many big mule deer bucks can be patterned), etc., etc. The only reason is simple, because bow hunting is very much more difficult then rifle hunting, even if you can shoot all your deer at close range with a rifle. Try it and you will understand; heck I have a couple older compound bows here that I will loan, to any rifle hunters who think bow hunting is easy, for as many years as it takes for them to take a big mule deer buck.

This is a serious offer.

Thanks for the offer man. I have shot 2 mule deer in the last 10 years. Both were shot at about 30 yards in coulee's. I honestly believe if I had a bow I would have had the same outcome. Although I may have had the honor to take one in velvet. I also believe I could have taken 2 bigger deer if I did bow hunt but I didn't because other bow hunters beet me to them because of this loop hole. This was in a CWD zone where I have draw a tag every 2nd year. So I probably have about the same success rate as most bow hunters.
In the sunny south with lack of trees when the crop is still in the field(bow season) I think it is actually easier to stock a deer. I work in agriculture and walk many canola/wheat fields and see deer close up all the time. After the crop comes off patterns change and deer become way harder to find. If it is such a thrill and a challenge.

You like bow, I like rifle but you have more oppritunities! Why?

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by jryley

lol pudel your statements are beyond a disaster. In one breath you state srds numbers determine draw numbers....and in the same breath state srds numbers are BS. 232 is on elk draw. When drawn in232 for elk you also are drawn for a grouping of wmus. So if 230 has an excess of elk, and
You get drawn, you could legally go hunt the one or two herds of elk floating around in 232....therefore, and intheory, within
A few seasons said minimal herds could be eradicated in, for example, 232.

Stop posting man

Is anybody else experiencing the same comprehension difficulties with my posts? I like to think I write quite well, but I am starting to think maybe I am not being clear.

I have no idea what you mean in the above description about elk in 232. Please "dumb it down".

[jryley]

........

Excuse me while i go cut my wrists...

[hunted]

Originally Posted by Icefisher2885

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this message board, and that is saying something. This is a troll, right? You should by stock in kleenex, I can't imagine how much tissue you need to mop of those tears.

Yes, everyone who bow hunts does so because it gives them special treatment. Absolute only reason. None of us who bow hunt do so because we prefer it to rifle hunting, think it is more fun, or just like to shoot bows more than we like to shoot guns.

I swear I'm like a trout in pond sometimes, I just can't help but take the bait.

So are you saying you dont have special treatment over me? I get it you like bow hunting, I like rifle hunting. Now what?

Another point that I missed in my first post had to due with permission. Most land owners by the time rifle season comes around are getting sick and tired of the on going"can I hunt on your land" game. Most people can handle this for a month in November but now with more and more bow hunters now wonder why when November rolls around land owners hide, won't return calls or just flat out say no. The people that ask for permission first are usually more successful than the last.

[flyguyd]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

I gave a valid solution that is fair across the board for all groups. All groups sacrifice across the board for the sake of the animals. Not picking on one group or playing the me me me game.

Its because its too simple and doesnt address bowhunter needs.Most of the top advocates for Archery muley have only taken a couple of deer in a 5-10 yr period. I get that. Its fun to hunt and you can hunt 2 extra months a year every year you can afford to hold out for a giant. But if you were lucky enough to find a giant every year, i bet not one bow or rifle hunter amongst us would pass him up

[Pudelpointer]

But not many of us do make good on those opportunities for big bucks Flyguyd. So what is your point?

And Jryley, no one wants to see you hurt yourself, just clearly explain what you are trying to say. Maybe you are taking my description a touch too literally; by "zone" I mean "area your tag is good for". If that tag is good in 3 zones, then the harvest is set using the number of animals available in all 3 zones.

I am still not sure what part you are not understanding about my post(s). Go back and read them carefully. Ask specific questions if you dot understan something and I will gladly explain.

You accuse me of "pointing fingers" and being "devisive", but nowhere have I identified where I think the problem lies, not that rifle hunters take too much, or have an unfair advantage, or landowners, or guides. I have merely stated some opinions and facts, and proposed a framework for setting available draw tags for the "new archery draw".

You have stated others "lack intelligence" for not agreeing with you. I was wrong to say you were calling others "stupid" or "ignorant" as you did not use those exact words. In my world, those who lack intelligence are referred to as stupid or ignorant, therefore my misquote.

You also state that my argument is bull sh*t and basically call me a liar when I say I bow hunt for the challenge. Very classy.

For the record, I have not stated rifle tags should be reduced more then other groups (many of my statement are rhetorical questions, some are even sarcastic). For the record I have not stated where I believe the fault lies for the low numbers of mule deer and trophies in some zones. For the record, I fully understand how seasons, quotas and wildlife are managed; I have been involved in various aspects of wildlife and fisheries management for over 20 years. Again, if there is something I have written that you don't understand, I will endeavour to make myself clear.

Your disrespectful comments are unwarranted and unnecessary.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by hunted

So are you saying you dont have special treatment over me? I get it you like bow hunting, I like rifle hunting. Now what?

Another point that I missed in my first post had to due with permission. Most land owners by the time rifle season comes around are getting sick and tired of the on going"can I hunt on your land" game. Most people can handle this for a month in November but now with more and more bow hunters now wonder why when November rolls around land owners hide, won't return calls or just flat out say no. The people that ask for permission first are usually more successful than the last.

Hunted, where are all these bow hunters? Are they buying the Bowhunting Permit? As far as I know bow hunter numbers have not changed significantly in the last few years.

Does anyone have the license sales data for the last few years?

[Zuludog]

Originally Posted by hunted

So are you saying you dont have special treatment over me? I get it you like bow hunting, I like rifle hunting. Now what?

Another point that I missed in my first post had to due with permission. Most land owners by the time rifle season comes around are getting sick and tired of the on going"can I hunt on your land" game. Most people can handle this for a month in November but now with more and more bow hunters now wonder why when November rolls around land owners hide, won't return calls or just flat out say no. The people that ask for permission first are usually more successful than the last.

Many people from both groups of hunters secure their permissions before the season starts. What is stopping you from doing the same?