Now I get to pay CPP2 and people are scared of an APP

[AxeMan]

I have witnessed this fear before:

I get LAPP pension now.
I was a supervisor for a significant portion of my career at a post secondary. I studied the pension system in detail and tracked the changes in detail. It always amazed me how many employees did not understand their pension at all and were too lazy to be interested in their own money. What they were good at was following the Union rhetoric though and being quick to complain if the NDP squealed. When Aimco took over control from the private LAPP investment board, there was panic being led by the NDP. Turned out that Aimco did just as good or better for the fund and at the end of 2022 it was at 128% overfunded. In 2013, it was underfunded at only 85%.

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by roper1

I've seen something like 30-34 billion quoted, the UCP had their azz roasted at EVERY town hall over the malarkey. Are you comfortable if the number is infinitesimally smaller than they quoted ?

You think provincial Cons have a good track record, Keystone de damned?? Absolutely not trying to be disrespectful, I just can't grasp Albertans acceptance of obviouse hooey.

For the 77th time, I'll state my loud support for an APP, until i started to do some research.

You comfortable with Kenney/Prentiss holding the purse strings, much less Rach? No disrespect intended!

I think most Albertans want accurate numbers and those numbers should be in our hands already. Some other media quote like $30-34 B is meaningless garbage to me right now. The CPP should be able to produce those numbers in under a week. What scares me is Chrystia Freeland running the show and the backroom meetings with the CPP Board. Who do you think ordered up those TV commercials.

And Prentice is dead and Kenney should be behind bars in my opinion.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

I think most Albertans want accurate numbers and those numbers should be in our hands already. Some other media quote like $30-34 B is meaningless garbage to me right now. The CPP should be able to produce those numbers in under a week. What scares me is Chrystia Freeland running the show and the backroom meetings with the CPP Board. Who do you think ordered up those TV commercials.

And Prentice is dead and Kenney should be behind bars in my opinion.

Danielle & Horner put the public consultation on hold. The accurate numbers should have been in our hands before the conversation started, and the UCP heard that loud & clear.

If media quotes of 30-34 is meaningless garbage, please clarify. I think a few economists came up with that number, not paid consultants. As you have studied pensions, ask yourself a few questions please.

Who paid Lifeworks?
How is Lifeworks hooked into the UCP?
If the 30-34 is accurate, do you trust the UCP's bean counters?
If you think Kenney should be in jail, how much AB tax dollars spent today would liken the same sentiment for Danielle or Horner?

[Buckhead]

I fail to see the issue.

The Lifeworks report quoted an absurdly high $$ number.

The Feds report (if and when it comes) is going to quote a ridiculously low
$$ number.

Then the issue goes to court for 10 years to determine the real number.

This should not come as any surprise.

[HyperMOA]

Roper to all your questions and concerns. Yes even at 30 billion we are better off alone. No I am much less scared of provincial abuse of a fund as a province its much easier for us to control it.

On the flip side tell me why any of your concerns at a provincial level aren’t much bigger concern at the federal level? You fear monger Rachelle and her boss Jagmeat, but jagmeat is actually running our federal government right now and you aren’t concerned??!?!?!???

Just give it a rest that you actually supported it. You don’t. You never did. And if you read the wording of Lifeworks analysis the number is absolutely conceivable and a perfect poi t to start negotiations. They can’t get the private info that CPP has, so it is perfectly relevant.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

I fail to see the issue.

The Lifeworks report quoted an absurdly high $$ number.

The Feds report (if and when it comes) is going to quote a ridiculously low
$$ number.

Then the issue goes to court for 10 years to determine the real number.

This should not come as any surprise.

Agreed this is how it will play out. But, like you, I believe Lifeworks quote is absurdly high. Makes me patient to see what else we're going to see is absurd. Magcan, Keystone, etc makes me less sure the cost to change will be better. And I deeply want to be disjointed from Ottawa..............

[AxeMan]

Like I said, the numbers I want are the actual contribution numbers from the CPP, with a detailed independently reviewed report. Personal contributions from individual Canadians from our T4 tax forms and the Province they were earned in. Add an averaged investment income. Subtract the actuarial averaged payments to recipients and boom, we have a number. Not quite so simple, but you get the idea.

Any other figures are completely meaningless and it is not worth our time to even argue that. Media or paid consultants or some politically motivated so-called economists (a dime a dozen). At least LifeWorks put out a report.

The rest is pure politics. If Danielle asked Chrystia for numbers to present to Albertan's in the first place, she would have been massively low-balled. Now the onus is on the CPP to correct the LifeWorks report. All politics.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

Like I said, the numbers I want are the actual contribution numbers from the CPP, with a detailed independently reviewed report. Personal contributions from individual Canadians from our T4 tax forms and the Province they were earned in. Add an averaged investment income. Subtract the actuarial averaged payments to recipients and boom, we have a number. Not quite so simple, but you get the idea.

Any other figures are completely meaningless and it is not worth our time to even argue that. Media or paid consultants or some politically motivated so-called economists (a dime a dozen). At least LifeWorks put out a report.

The rest is pure politics. If Danielle asked Chrystia for numbers to present to Albertan's in the first place, she would have been massively low-balled. Now the onus is on the CPP to correct the LifeWorks report. All politics.

The good news is, Dani in her year end interviews says she's focusing on health care in '24. Nanos & others have a UCP move to an APP being soundly defeated by Albertans in a referendum.

The UCP were supposed to be transparent, and responsive. All we've truly received so far is massive cost of living hikes, very poor private industry investment, coal mines still poised to ruin the eastern slopes, and a whole lot of Trudeau-bashing that's got us nowhere.

As for Lifeworks report, of course they published it. They'll be contracted to do another, some people think it's gospel. My opinion, Dani would have better political strategy to let Chrystia low-ball her, then use that for more anti-Ottawa sentiment. Being first off the mark has clearly ticked off the majority of Albertans

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by roper1

Being first off the mark has clearly ticked off the majority of Albertans

I think the lieberal increase in the CPP tax this year did a good enough job to motivate a majority of Albertans.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by I’d rather be outdoors

I think the lieberal increase in the CPP tax this year did a good enough job to motivate a majority of Albertans.

Yep they should be striking while the iron is hot. They have from now until September or so.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by roper1

The good news is, Dani in her year end interviews says she's focusing on health care in '24. Nanos & others have a UCP move to an APP being soundly defeated by Albertans in a referendum.

The UCP were supposed to be transparent, and responsive. All we've truly received so far is massive cost of living hikes, very poor private industry investment, coal mines still poised to ruin the eastern slopes, and a whole lot of Trudeau-bashing that's got us nowhere.

As for Lifeworks report, of course they published it. They'll be contracted to do another, some people think it's gospel. My opinion, Dani would have better political strategy to let Chrystia low-ball her, then use that for more anti-Ottawa sentiment. Being first off the mark has clearly ticked off the majority of Albertans

The only reason Alberta’s share would be less than what was calculated by the Federal government’s own equation is if the money is not actually there. I don’t think all the CPP money is there and that has prompted the large increase in contributions this year. I trust the Federal government as far as I can throw them. As for the Trudeau Bashing, do you not think it’s warranted? After all the taxpayer funds that have been squandered by the Federal Liberal NDP coalition and hate towards Alberta industry you still trust the Feds with the CPP? The CPP is just another carrot that the Feds can dangle over our heads to control us. The CPP is just another way to waist tax payers money. How much money is lost just in collection, managing and distribution of the CPP, nothing in government hands is efficient ever.

[59whiskers]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

I think most Albertans want accurate numbers and those numbers should be in our hands already. Some other media quote like $30-34 B is meaningless garbage to me right now. The CPP should be able to produce those numbers in under a week. What scares me is Chrystia Freeland running the show and the backroom meetings with the CPP Board. Who do you think ordered up those TV commercials.

And Prentice is dead and Kenney should be behind bars in my opinion.

X2

[badbrass]

Originally Posted by 59whiskers

X2

x-3! Real numbers or forget it!

[Drewski Canuck]

I really get tired of all the crystal ball gazers with their agendas on this issue.

If you believe that an APP cannot work, why not compare the CPP to an actual Provincial Pension plan, like what is operated in Quebec?

I know, what you all are going to start yelling: QUIT bringing common sense into the argument.

But sorry friends, enemies, and friends I have yet to make, wouldn't it make sense to base the comparison on the Quebec experience so you can actually see if Provincial Administration has a benefit to Albertans?

But there I go again, being practical.

Drewski

[Sundancefisher]

Feds are flooding the TV with CPP ads.

[Dean2]

OH Ya, CPP is just a GREAT Deal. NOT!!!!! Sure glad I am collecting and not paying anymore. What I get back for what I and my employers paid in, which was always at the max rate, STINKS. Sure glad I don't have to try and live on what I get. It will only get worse going forward. Moving to an APP will certainly not be worse than the system we have now.

CPP, EI CHANGES

As of Jan. 1, many Canadian earners will start seeing a larger portion of their paycheques going toward Canada Pension Plan contributions after the federal government added a second earnings ceiling.

The CPP now has two maximum amounts.

Previously, everyone earning over the base amount of $3,500 contributed a set portion of their income, up to a maximum amount that increases slightly every year.

Like before, the first tier will see workers contribute a set portion of their earnings to CPP up to a government-set threshold.

For 2024, people earning $68,500 or less won't see any changes to their current contribution rates.

Anyone with annual earnings higher than $68,500 now falls into a second contribution level that tops out at $73,200.

People in this group will pay an additional four per cent on the amount of money they make between $68,500 and $73,200, with a maximum additional contribution amount of $2,928.

John Oakey, vice president of taxation with Chartered Professional Accountants of Canada (CPA Canada), told BNNBloomberg.ca that the change, paired with EI contributions, could create a significant tax burden for middle-income-earning employees, and for their employers.

“What this means for employers is if you were to hire somebody in 2024 and you were paying them $73,200, it's going to cost you 7.5 per cent for employment taxes,” Oakey said.

“And employees are paying seven per cent, so that's 14.5 per cent that's going to fund the CPP and EI between employees and employers … that’s a lot of tax to be paid, and a lot of administrative burden.”

In addition to CPP contribution changes, the maximum insurable earnings ceiling for EI has risen to $63,200, up from $61,500 in 2023 and $60,300 in 2022 – an increase Oakey said was “normal course of business.”

[dmcbride]

Government bureaucrats, liberal funded media and liberal funded economists are the only ones really disputing Alberta’s share. Trevor Tombe the media’s main economist is paid by the liberals.
Example,

https://www.blacklocks.ca/feds-pay-cbc-pundit-16950/

One would think the LifeWorks numbers would be close, formally known as Morneau Shepell, which our ex finance minister Bill Morneau is a big part of.

[dgl1948]

How will APP be paid out? Anyone ask that?

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Feds are flooding the TV with CPP ads.

Of course they are. They’re exposed, and it’s a raw deal for Albertans as it was. Now they’ve increased it! Talk about a black eye.

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Government bureaucrats, liberal funded media and liberal funded economists are the only ones really disputing Alberta’s share. Trevor Tombe the media’s main economist is paid by the liberals.
Example,

https://www.blacklocks.ca/feds-pay-cbc-pundit-16950/

One would think the LifeWorks numbers would be close, formally known as Morneau Shepell, which our ex finance minister Bill Morneau is a big part of.

Didn’t know that Tombe was on their payroll. Makes sense though, thanks for sharing.

[DirtShooter]

Originally Posted by roper1

The good news is, Dani in her year end interviews says she's focusing on health care in '24. Nanos & others have a UCP move to an APP being soundly defeated by Albertans in a referendum.

The UCP were supposed to be transparent, and responsive. All we've truly received so far is massive cost of living hikes, very poor private industry investment, coal mines still poised to ruin the eastern slopes, and a whole lot of Trudeau-bashing that's got us nowhere.

As for Lifeworks report, of course they published it. They'll be contracted to do another, some people think it's gospel. My opinion, Dani would have better political strategy to let Chrystia low-ball her, then use that for more anti-Ottawa sentiment. Being first off the mark has clearly ticked off the majority of Albertans

Nanos the liberal shill polling organization lol

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Dean2

OH Ya, CPP is just a GREAT Deal. NOT!!!!! Sure glad I am collecting and not paying anymore. What I get back for what I and my employers paid in, which was always at the max rate, STINKS. Sure glad I don't have to try and live on what I get. It will only get worse going forward. Moving to an APP will certainly not be worse than the system we have now.

I have no idea where people get the idea CPP is a good deal. Just do the math for yourselves folks, plus when you die it's gone, your spouse might get a little to take them up to max if they are not already there but after that gone. If investment firms were offering up this kind of deal they would go broke for lack of customers.

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I have no idea where people get the idea CPP is a good deal. Just do the math for yourselves folks, plus when you die it's gone, your spouse might get a little to take them up to max if they are not already there but after that gone. If investment firms were offering up this kind of deal they would go broke for lack of customers.

Piker, here is a video that addresses that exact question:

https://youtu.be/GzbAq7AX-Yg

Be careful with the first part of his video as he only calculates your YMPE contributions and leaves out the employers matching contribution. He does touch on that at the end of the video though. The employers contribution is really a part of your salary package though, so it really must be included in these calculations. This is all based on 5% annual investment returns.

In short, if the employer contributions are included as they should, a maxed out 40 year max YMPE would have a break even point at 87 years old if you start collecting at age 65. There are a few holes in his calculations though, especially on the earning power of your own investment.(He seemed to forget that your own nest egg of savings would continue to earn investment income beyond your age of 65 well beyond his assumption of 2.5% CPP inflation adjustment for the comparison.)

Also, if you invested on your own vs CPP, it is all your and your estates money not subject to the whims of a government to steal it. This scenario matches my own situation quite closely.

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I have no idea where people get the idea CPP is a good deal. Just do the math for yourselves folks, plus when you die it's gone, your spouse might get a little to take them up to max if they are not already there but after that gone. If investment firms were offering up this kind of deal they would go broke for lack of customers.

Exactly, if it were optional, the CPP would never survive because the risk/return is poor. There’s better choices. It’s not an investment, it’s a TAX.

[tranq78]

Originally Posted by Dean2

OH Ya, CPP is just a GREAT Deal. NOT!!!!! Sure glad I am collecting and not paying anymore. What I get back for what I and my employers paid in, which was always at the max rate, STINKS. Sure glad I don't have to try and live on what I get. It will only get worse going forward. Moving to an APP will certainly not be worse than the system we have now.

I am glad you commented Dean. I know the forum really respects your knowledge of finance.

I am hearing the most ridiculous reasons for staying un CPP. Such as... (1) I don't want to fill out a different form to collect APP vs. rest of Canada for collecting CPP. (2) I want my CPP to benefit all Canadians, (I know the govt will protect me when it's my turn to collect). (3) I hate the premier (and I let emotions guide me and you can't stop me). The stuff in parenthesis is paraphrased as original content unsuitable for family viewing.


Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

Piker, here is a video that addresses that exact question:

https://youtu.be/GzbAq7AX-Yg

Be careful with the first part of his video as he only calculates your YMPE contributions and leaves out the employers matching contribution. He does touch on that at the end of the video though. The employers contribution is really a part of your salary package though, so it really must be included in these calculations. This is all based on 5% annual investment returns.

In short, if the employer contributions are included as they should, a maxed out 40 year max YMPE would have a break even point at 87 years old if you start collecting at age 65. There are a few holes in his calculations though, especially on the earning power of your own investment.(He seemed to forget that your own nest egg of savings would continue to earn investment income beyond your age of 65 well beyond his assumption of 2.5% CPP inflation adjustment for the comparison.)

Also, if you invested on your own vs CPP, it is all your and your estates money not subject to the whims of a government to steal it. This scenario matches my own situation quite closely.

I think we miss a big factor(s)
That many people are not fortunate enough to have an employer contributing to your retirement as in RRSP’s or don’t work where there is a pension at the end. Many just work to stay afloat week to week etc so that chunk taking off their pay check is greatly appreciated come 65.

Now we have people say they would prefer to invest the money on their own yet they make bad financial decisions constantly just to keep up with the Jones or bad habits etc

Oh well if I was a betting man we are not going to see a APP nor an Alberta police force it’s all just our prairie princess posturing to muster up votes.

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I think we miss a big factor(s)
That many people are not fortunate enough to have an employer contributing to your retirement as in RRSP’s or don’t work where there is a pension at the end. Many just work to stay afloat week to week etc so that chunk taking off their pay check is greatly appreciated come 65.

Now we have people say they would prefer to invest the money on their own yet they make bad financial decisions constantly just to keep up with the Jones or bad habits etc

Oh well if I was a betting man we are not going to see a APP nor an Alberta police force it’s all just our prairie princess posturing to muster up votes.

I think the lieberal increase this year in the CPP tax will get more than enough people on board with an APP. The slogan makes itself: “why pay more?”

[trailraat]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

Like I said, the numbers I want are the actual contribution numbers from the CPP, with a detailed independently reviewed report. Personal contributions from individual Canadians from our T4 tax forms and the Province they were earned in. Add an averaged investment income. Subtract the actuarial averaged payments to recipients and boom, we have a number. Not quite so simple, but you get the idea.

Any other figures are completely meaningless and it is not worth our time to even argue that. Media or paid consultants or some politically motivated so-called economists (a dime a dozen). At least LifeWorks put out a report.

The rest is pure politics. If Danielle asked Chrystia for numbers to present to Albertan's in the first place, she would have been massively low-balled. Now the onus is on the CPP to correct the LifeWorks report. All politics.

You can't have this answer until it goes to court. Simply stating the number in the Lifeworks report is unreasonably large doesn't mean anything - no matter how much is determined initially either party will take it to court over the interpretation of the formula there is too much at stake not too.

People shouting they want the hard numbers now have no idea how government or anything like this works. Any number either side gives is throwing darts blind. It's a multi-year negotiation and court cases.

[AxeMan]

"People shouting they want the hard numbers now have no idea how government or anything like this works. Any number either side gives is throwing darts blind. It's a multi-year negotiation and court cases."

I hope people realize that CPP contributions are their money....period. It is recorded to the penny on our tax forms every single year we and our employers contribute. What is to negotiate? We get our money with investment income. Anything else is criminal fraud. CPP numbers are as hard of numbers as it gets. OAS for example is a completely different thing, there is where the government can really commit socialist fraud. If people don't demand hard numbers like I am calling for, then all is lost in this country. The government wants to muddy this of course, then they can steal it. I believe that is the motivation of Danielle to get this out of the indirect control of thieves like Turd and Freeland.

This was the point of my post #83 with the video. These are hard numbers.
And for the people saying LifeWorks and the report are UCP paid hacks here is a little fact. LifeWorks was formerly Morneau Shepell. Yes, Bill Morneau, Trudeau's former finance minister. Morneau Shepell has been in the pension management business for years and manages LAPP.

[whitetail Junkie]

Drain the Swamp!!!!

Ontario East can suck it.