Baiting In Alberta

[shedcrazy]

Good summary of a crap load of pages LC

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

couple more....

http://www.americanhunter.org/blogs/...ate-mule-deer/


http://www.americanhunter.org/articl...-deer-hunting/

and a quote from the first....

The Rankings: Since we’re looking for up-to-date information, I searched the database for both typical and non-typical mule deer entries made since the year 2000. In order to qualify for the B&C “book” a typical mule deer must score 180 points or better and a non-typical must score 215 points or better.






State


Typical Record


Number of Typical Entries


Non-Typical Record


Number of Non-Typical Entries


Total B&C Entries




1. Colorado


207 6/8


220


306 3/8


55


275




2. Wyoming


206 6/8


66


285 4/8


14


80

darn charts never copy correctly....but again...colorado and wyoming number 1 and 2, going against the BS peddled by srd that clorado and wyoming deer herds are colllapsed by cwd, and that there are very few older age class bucks left.

Thanks for that Bambi but I'm not really sure it proves your point. There are way too many other variables involved in harvest numbers to leap to any conclusions.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Thanks for that Bambi but I'm not really sure it proves your point. There are way too many other variables involved in harvest numbers to leap to any conclusions.

are you reading what im saying? i already pointed that out more than once.

[Dan the Saskbertan]

I grew up in Alberta and we hunted on & near large tracts of harvested pea fields, oat fields and alfalfa left over. This is where the deer's feeding patterns were already set from earlier in the year. We never hunted over bait piles or hay bails.

I support baiting but it isn't the magic bullet some people think it is. Since moving Sask 6 years ago I have hunted over bait and can state my observations.

• it's effective on deer near agriculural fringes in the central regions but less so where there are large established food sources.
• it can never rival prevailing feeding patterns in quantity & quality of deer.
• it doesn't work very well on mule deer.
• the biggest bucks I've shot were intercepted en route to their existing food sources, not over a bait pile.
• if there are standing crops of fodder corn still out for the cows in the area, baiting is almost futile.
• baiting does work but the man hours I've had to put in to see decent deer are way more than if I just hunted using terrain and existing food sources.
• It's great for old people and kids, especially if the weather is cold.

I hope this gives a realistic picture of what baiting is about from someone who hunts in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Just book here in Saskatchewan in 2013, but you'll find that it's not all it's cracked up to be if you bait. You'll enjoy the hunt more if you do it with some planning and use what's already out in the field.

Sincerely,

Dan from Saskatchewan

[Speckle55]

Dale .. how does a Quaratine work do they allow you to move about ?

if you had 10 animals in a fence in area and one came into that fenced in area infected then all would get CWD with in a set time so they kill them all and don,t bring in any animals till its disinfected and deamed to be safe

if you have 1000 animals in 10 sq miles and you have CWD present and you reduce those numbers to 10 is it easier to watch 10 animals and stop the infection rate and Quaratine 10 animals .. thats why we don,t want high numbers per sq mile

when they have a infection they will bring in all contacts and test all(humans).... we need is a live test and to get on these hot spots like Trent see's and make sure we keep those numbers down to stop the infection rate

what is 1% of 10 mule deer now whats 1% of 10000 mule deer which is easier to control

right now you can,t handle the truth nor can the public

and still you want to do nothing

David

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Red Bullets

I think both the B&C and P&Y hunting clubs should have trophies that were only taken in fair chase. Baited animals should be disqualified.

in areas where baiting is legal, it is considered fair chase.

i just had the conversation the other day with a guy that asked what i think of cougar guys using gps collars on their dogs. it is legal, and accepted as fair chase also. he hates it and wishes it discontinued, and i had to point out that i have another friend that hates using dogs period for cougars. we see it time and time again how many here on this forum think long range hunting is unethical. it is also legal and considered fair chase. one of my tactics is to push deer out of the weeds. many feel that shooting at running game is unethical....but guess what.....see where im going?

there is someone somewhere that feels that EVERY hunting method is unethical in their eyes. heck, there is an anti bowhunter going hard in another thread right now. every time a hunter speaks out against a method they dont like it pits hunters against hunters.....and that isnt good for any of us. it amazes me how many are so oblivious to that. it has been proven that quotes can be picked off this forum and used to prove a point somewhere else.

look in the mirror and ask yourself.....do i want to be the example used to put an end to hunting in any form?

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Dale .. how does a Quaratine work do they allow you to move about ?

if you had 10 animals in a fence in area and one came into that fenced in area infected then all would get CWD with in a set time so they kill them all and don,t bring in any animals till its disinfected and deamed to be safe

if you have 1000 animals in 10 sq miles and you have CWD present and you reduce those numbers to 10 is it easier to watch 10 animals and stop the infection rate and Quaratine 10 animals .. thats why we don,t want high numbers per sq mile

when they have a infection they will bring in all contacts and test all(humans).... we need is a live test and to get on these hot spots like Trent see's and make sure we keep those numbers down to stop the infection rate

what is 1% of 10 mule deer now whats 1% of 10000 mule deer which is easier to control

right now you can,t handle the truth nor can the public

and still you want to do nothing

David

now you want to talk quarantine in wild deer?

david, the truth is simple....cwd is unstoppable. culls have never been proven effective ever. the links YOU provided have shown it simply enough. it is you that cant handle the truth. you have posted it yourself in the links provided. once established, it is impossible to be rid of it. there is no such thing as disinfected. there is no way to even find it in the environment, so to think you can disinfect an area is ludicrous. again, links you provided show how far deer can and will migrate. how would you plan on disinfecting the entire wmus of 234 and 200 where it is most prevalent? be serious man.

you are incredibly stubborn to keep pounding the culling drum when all known science says that you cant eliminate the disease. whats the deal...you have a crush on margo or something?

oh, and you dodged my question.....how can you justify killing 10000 deer to save 100?

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i just had the conversation the other day with a guy that asked what i think of cougar guys using gps collars on their dogs. it is legal, and accepted as fair chase also.

Not saying you are wrong but it's my understanding if the collar is used to find your way to the tree the entry is not eligible. They can be on the dogs but only to locate them if they are not at the tree. At least that's how it used to be.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

now you want to talk quarantine in wild deer?

david, the truth is simple....cwd is unstoppable. culls have never been proven effective ever. the links YOU provided have shown it simply enough. it is you that cant handle the truth. you have posted it yourself in the links provided. once established, it is impossible to be rid of it. there is no such thing as disinfected. there is no way to even find it in the environment, so to think you can disinfect an area is ludicrous. again, links you provided show how far deer can and will migrate. how would you plan on disinfecting the entire wmus of 234 and 200 where it is most prevalent? be serious man.

you are incredibly stubborn to keep pounding the culling drum when all known science says that you cant eliminate the disease. whats the deal...you have a crush on margo or something?

oh, and you dodged my question.....how can you justify killing 10000 deer to save 100?

first of all as the CDC put it it is a Prion and there are lots of diseases .

Mad Cow is one that we jump all over with Quaratines because it does infect humans

. they have disinfected pens in Europe period.... fact .

. also they have said in reports that it if you keep the numbers in say 234 low say 10 deer for a period of time and if you do then your odds of it moving out of 234 are greatly reduced

it is simple diseases control reduce the exposure chance and you will slow and stop the disease.. WHO/CDC

i posted where in Austraila they use a long long fence to control ferals

i posted my answer in my first post that we are not talking about 10000 animals but millions over the last 30 years and next 100 years that we are trying to save..how many WMU's are we trying to save from this


these people you don't want to believe are experts in their field and both sit on CWD panels/conferences and publish reports/papers

but hey you would have us doing nothing?

David

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

first of all as the CDC put it it is a Prion and there are lots of diseases .

Mad Cow is one that we jump all over with Quaratines because it does infect humans

. they have disinfected pens in Europe period.... fact .

. also they have said in reports that it if you keep the numbers in say 234 low say 10 deer for a period of time and if you do then your odds of it moving out of 234 are greatly reduced

it is simple diseases control reduce the exposure chance and you will slow and stop the disease.. WHO/CDC

i posted where in Austraila they use a long long fence to control ferals

i posted my answer in my first post that we are not talking about 10000 animals but millions over the last 30 years and next 100 years that we are trying to save..how many WMU's are we trying to save from this


these people you don't want to believe are experts in their field and both sit on CWD panels/conferences and publish reports/papers

but hey you would have us doing nothing?

David

Heres what should be done David , either a blanket mandatory head submission province wide , including the zone you hunt in, and for sure mandatory head submissions in the zones that cwd was proven in domesticated Elk and deer farms around edmonton and north...And discontinue game farms province wide especially the distribution of domesticated Elk and deer in cwd proven zones... Let's get the truth and facts on this disease province wide , before we continue to wast dollars along the border and the continue slaughter of healthy deer.......Something remains fishy to me , how they can actually think 320 animals sampled around a cwd positve elk farm and random road kills is even close to being representative knowing with very low percentages one needs thousands of samples to prove a handful of positive cases...... And don't tell me one person can actually say this was sufficient ...... Absolute garbage..... What are we hiding????

Food for thought

[Speckle55]

Here is Dr Val Geist quote i found and i agree

David

As extreme as this seems, the goal of 1 percent isn't enough, says Dr. Valerius Geist, a renowned Canadian wildlife biologist and consultant during the recent CWD outbreak in Saskatchewan. "This is the next best thing to BSE. ... The goal should be total eradication," he says. "I have difficulty accepting that after you've murdered 50,000 deer, the infection is still there."


Geist suggests that officials cull animals in every place that CWD has ever been found. Otherwise, he says, the effort is moot.

David

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Here is Dr Val Geist quote i found and i agree

David

As extreme as this seems, the goal of 1 percent isn't enough, says Dr. Valerius Geist, a renowned Canadian wildlife biologist and consultant during the recent CWD outbreak in Saskatchewan. "This is the next best thing to BSE. ... The goal should be total eradication," he says. "I have difficulty accepting that after you've murdered 50,000 deer, the infection is still there."


Geist suggests that officials cull animals in every place that CWD has ever been found. Otherwise, he says, the effort is moot.

David

Then they better get culling around Edmonton and North

where cwd was positively found.......

Nikon

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Here is Dr Val Geist quote i found and i agree

David

As extreme as this seems, the goal of 1 percent isn't enough, says Dr. Valerius Geist, a renowned Canadian wildlife biologist and consultant during the recent CWD outbreak in Saskatchewan. "This is the next best thing to BSE. ... The goal should be total eradication," he says. "I have difficulty accepting that after you've murdered 50,000 deer, the infection is still there."


Geist suggests that officials cull animals in every place that CWD has ever been found. Otherwise, he says, the effort is moot.

David

Yah well we might as well just drop an atomic bomb then.....or wait let's let them all infect each other with CWD....then they will eradicate themselves!! LOL...

So David just to be clear here....so no one misunderstand your words or your position...

You would support a 100% eradication of deer where CWD has been found anywhere in the province.....fully realizing it contaminates soil....and is very likely to reinfect. Also realizing that deer have ranges and will move....

LC

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Here is Dr Val Geist quote i found and i agree

David

As extreme as this seems, the goal of 1 percent isn't enough, says Dr. Valerius Geist, a renowned Canadian wildlife biologist and consultant during the recent CWD outbreak in Saskatchewan. "This is the next best thing to BSE. ... The goal should be total eradication," he says. "I have difficulty accepting that after you've murdered 50,000 deer, the infection is still there."


Geist suggests that officials cull animals in every place that CWD has ever been found. Otherwise, he says, the effort is moot.

David

david....i dont care at this point if you quote god or allah themselves. geists opinion is just that OPINION. the fact that he cant see that the infection persists in the environment is disheartening and frustrating as the evidence is very clear that eradication of deer is possible, but eradication of prions in the environment is not.

i have asked you a direct question that you have dodged a couple times now.

im going to have to ignore the rest of what you have to say in this thread.....at this point all you have is emotion and opinion when the facts are staring you straight in the eye and you refuse to accept them. when someone discards facts in favor of emotion, communication and education isnt possible. i only hope that the vast majority of people reading this can see and understand what has been presented. see ya in the next one.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

are you reading what im saying? i already pointed that out more than once.

So why do you keep saying Colorado doesn't have a problem with mature deer? We have no clue if they do or not from the info you posted.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So why do you keep saying Colorado doesn't have a problem with mature deer? We have no clue if they do or not from the info you posted.

read what i said TJ. i stated the info is anecdotal and not scientific. i offered potential reasons for the numbers to remain static. what i have posted shows that colorado and wyoming still lead the way in P&Y and B&C entries. i cant seem to find it, but i have seen it prrinted in a magazine that state record keepers are seeing little to no change in the same time in mature bucks. maybe its just that more guys are entering them as interest has grown....who knows.

one thing is for sure...its a much better source of info showing that there are many mature mule bucks there than the mystery claims that nobody can seem to back up that there are few mature bucks in those areas.

tell ya what...i showed you what i claimed. if you can show me some actual evidence proving that mature bucks are not as common as they once were...id be interested. ive seen srds bullschit claims in our hunting regs, but never have i seen any scientific or even anecdotal proof. show me....im willing to learn.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

read what i said TJ. i stated the info is anecdotal and not scientific. i offered potential reasons for the numbers to remain static. what i have posted shows that colorado and wyoming still lead the way in P&Y and B&C entries. i cant seem to find it, but i have seen it prrinted in a magazine that state record keepers are seeing little to no change in the same time in mature bucks. maybe its just that more guys are entering them as interest has grown....who knows.

one thing is for sure...its a much better source of info showing that there are many mature mule bucks there than the mystery claims that nobody can seem to back up that there are few mature bucks in those areas.

tell ya what...i showed you what i claimed. if you can show me some actual evidence proving that mature bucks are not as common as they once were...id be interested. ive seen srds bullschit claims in our hunting regs, but never have i seen any scientific or even anecdotal proof. show me....im willing to learn.

Anecdotal evidene must bear some scrutiny to be considered...there's way too many variables as to why Colorado has the mule deer buck harvest that it does. Just calling something anecdotal evidence does not make it so. How many tags do they give out compared to the past...compared to other states. How has habitat changed? How has access changed? How have regulations changed? How have seasons changed? All that stuff would need to be considered first beforeb even looking at the relationship to CWD....you are smart enough to know this stuff Dale.

When I have some time I'll see if I can dig up the population dynamic studies that I saw.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Anecdotal evidene must bear some scrutiny to be considered...there's way too many variables as to why Colorado has the mule deer buck harvest that it does. Just calling something anecdotal evidence does not make it so. How many tags do they give out compared to the past...compared to other states. How has habitat changed? How has access changed? How have regulations changed? How have seasons changed? All that stuff would need to be considered first beforeb even looking at the relationship to CWD....you are smart enough to know this stuff Dale.

When I have some time I'll see if I can dig up the population dynamic studies that I saw.

i said that in my first post directed at this specific thing...

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

given that hunters are consistently after those older age class bucks, its not an exact science to say that any one thing is having a noticeable effect on older age class bucks in wild populations. hunters killing them reduce their numbers as well....but the fact they still are killing them says they are there in good supply. i posted a link to the article once before on this forum, it was from one of the hunting mags that had shown several mature bucks taken from the cwd hotspots in both colorado and wyoming. state record keepers, B&C entries, and hunter submitted stories have shown no decrease in mature bucks from these areas of higher concentrations of cwd. i concede the evidence for what im saying is anecdotal and not scientific....but there is no scientific proof there are less mature bucks in these areas either. i have only seen studies done on captive deer showing what you are saying....and that is not a fair comparison.

you seem to be saying pretty close to the same thing that i agreed to in the first place....

an·ec·do·tal

/ˌanikˈdōtl/





Adjective




1.(of an account) Not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.


id say what i posted is indeed anecdotal evidence. i also said to interpret it as you may. as i said, ive never seen any scientific evidnece to claim the opposite....only opinion. at least my anecdotal evidence has a little bit of backing to it.

[KegRiver]

I still don't understand how prions spread CWD.

What I read indicates that these prions are mostly in the brain and spinal column, so how do they get from deep inside the animal to on the ground?

I can understand how they would get from a dead animal to the ground, but how do they get from a live animal to the ground?

I tried google, it the only source I have at this time, but I found nothing about how this happens.

Does anyone know?

Another question I have, most proteins have a rather short life outside a living organism, so why do these prions have such a long life? Why don't they rot like most proteins?

I am aware of some proteins that do persist outside a living organism, such as leather, but it is my understanding the proteins involved are from the nervous system, so why would they persist?

It may not be important but it does help me to understand why the concern. As it is now, I have to go with what I understand and that's not enough to convince me that baiting should be illegal.

As was pointed out by others, baiting for other purposes, even if they are not called baiting does exist legally now, just not for hunting purposes.
And then there's the whole issue of other man made food sources that can and does concentrate Deer and Elk, and there is the game farm issue.

Why is only baiting for hunting purposes such a concern?

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Yah well we might as well just drop an atomic bomb then.....or wait let's let them all infect each other with CWD....then they will eradicate themselves!! LOL...

So David just to be clear here....so no one misunderstand your words or your position...

You would support a 100% eradication of deer where CWD has been found anywhere in the province.....fully realizing it contaminates soil....and is very likely to reinfect. Also realizing that deer have ranges and will move....

LC

lets be clear i said i agree with the recomended postion of leading CDW Experts and in Canada that's Trent and Margo etc and 100 percent eraditcate is what would stop it for now but you would have to do survailance and follow ups .. culling is only one tool others include not allowing baiting or feeding of ungulates and keep numbers low in all areas and using your management tools as we do now with Mule deer culls /Elk culls in National Parks..wolves culls / wild pigs bounty/rats at the border

if you did a risk asscessment on this issue which is what the CWD panel did what are they recommending.. ????

but what i hear is people spouting that they know better and are argueing with the experts.... i did not give these numbers out and names so people could haress them with thier therories.. i gave them out so they could ask them their profesional opinion's which they gave .. but were hit with ancidotal un-supported bs.. gghheee everyone is a EXPERT

how did they get BSE under control in Europe by eradicating it 100% even 1% of infection is too much du-h

David

[Lefty-Canuck]

David....the point is we all know if you kill all the deer in Alberta, and there is no deer left....then there is no CWD in any Alberta deer because they are all dead...

SO, that being said once all the deer are dead and gone, and then they start to migrate in from Saskatchewan and Montana....and perhaps BC. They all are at risk of infection from the infected bait pile areas ...the point is....once CWD is prevalent in an environment, there is no real practical way to rid an area of it, NO AMOUNT OF CULLING will acheive this...not even 100%

So I will repeat as other have before and likely will again....culling is ineffective....

Remember we are talkling about free range wild populations, not domestic populations.

BSE is much easier controlled because there is no wild population of cows in England/Europe....they are all domestic and can all be accounted for. Now if you said we need to cull all farmed game animals to rid areas of CWD....then you might be onto something.

LC

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

David....the point is we all know if you kill all the deer in Alberta, and there is no deer left....then there is no CWD in any Alberta deer because they are all dead...

SO, that being said once all the deer are dead and gone, and then they start to migrate in from Saskatchewan and Montana....and perhaps BC. They all are at risk of infection from the infected bait pile areas ...the point is....once CWD is prevalent in an environment, there is no real practical way to rid an area of it, NO AMOUNT OF CULLING will acheive this...not even 100% BSE Europe is under control now
So I will repeat as other have before and likely will again....culling is ineffective....

Remember we are talkling about free range wild populations, not domestic populations.

BSE is much easier controlled because there is no wild population of cows in England/Europe....they are all domestic and can all be accounted for. Now if you said we need to cull all farmed game animals to rid areas of CWD....then you might be onto something.

LC

if you have a infected area that is 100 % no deer and then you insure that no deer go there for a time that was infected then you allow 10 deer in there then live test them every year .. controled protocall CDC

they were very surprised when they found infection in a pen that was supposted to be de-infected after 14 years of leaving empty .. as some have said Prions should lose infective rate after shorter time but some dirt is acting like a conduit.. so if you can keep it under control and take out any hotspots quickly 100 % then do your survailance and follow-ups and hard choices you will in the end control your out break or it is all moot if you have 1% in the area as we know it will get higher (Fact)

boy am i glad you guys don,t work for CDC/WHO we all would be dead

Food for Thought

David

asked him if he felt that cwd is spreading at an alarming rate. he answered no, but that he is afraid that in the future....like several decades that there is indication that mule deer bucks will be most affected, and there may be a decrease in the number of older age class deer available and that it will affect hunting oppotunities... Quote.. Dr Trent Bollinger CWD Lead Canada

[Lefty-Canuck]

Your scenario cannot be applied in nature David....you cannot control movements of wild game populations without fences....we cannot fence Alberta and all wild populations....most of what you talk about are in captive situations, and therefore do not apply.

...you said it reappeared in a pen after 14 years, was this a bovine? or a cervid pen?.....what about in nature?

I can see how ISB is getting frustrated discussing this with you....you skim over everything valid, pick up one point and spew a bunch of unrelated stuff out about things that are not relevant to this situation we have here

....so after 14 years of "dormant stage" it resurfaces....thus it is NEVER GOING AWAY.

If a significant cull takes place....do you not think that effects hunting opportunities significantly? it already has in certain areas in this province.....but you don't mind as it is not in your backyard

LC

[NIKON]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

lets be clear i said i agree with the recomended postion of leading CDW Experts and in Canada that's Trent and Margo etc and 100 percent eraditcate is what would stop it for now but you would have to do survailance and follow ups .. culling is only one tool others include not allowing baiting or feeding of ungulates and keep numbers low in all areas and using your management tools as we do now with Mule deer culls /Elk culls in National Parks..wolves culls / wild pigs bounty/rats at the border

if you did a risk asscessment on this issue which is what the CWD panel did what are they recommending.. ????

but what i hear is people spouting that they know better and are argueing with the experts.... i did not give these numbers out and names so people could haress them with thier therories.. i gave them out so they could ask them their profesional opinion's which they gave .. but were hit with ancidotal un-supported bs.. gghheee everyone is a EXPERT

how did they get BSE under control in Europe by eradicating it 100% even 1% of infection is too much du-h

David

Haress?
Who's harrassing , your saying we can't call the number you provided and ask the hard questions is considered harrassing ?........ Speaking of theories , alot of what's been going on with cwd has been based on theories...... Just like the theory of testing 320 deer around a positive deer and elk farm around Edmonton with no positives is sufficient to make claim the area cwd free .... I'll tell you what david you don't want to know and i feel they want this to be a border issue ........ They should have done a mandatory head submission in these cwd zones around edmonton knowing thousands of heads submitted along the border only proved a handful of cwd positives... Low percentages need 1000's of samples...... Why do you continue to dodge this issue?.....

Food for thought

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Your scenario cannot be applied in nature David....you cannot control movements of wild game populations without fences....we cannot fence Alberta and all wild populations....most of what you talk about are in captive situations, and therefore do not apply.

...you said it reappeared in a pen after 14 years, was this a bovine? or a cervid pen?.....what about in nature?

I can see how ISB is getting frustrated discussing this with you....you skim over everything valid, pick up one point and spew a bunch of unrelated stuff out about things that are not relevant to this situation we have here

....so after 14 years of "dormant stage" it resurfaces....thus it is NEVER GOING AWAY.LC

assumption

the other two pens that had infective animals did not reinfect animals put into them .. as they were dis-infected and pen 3 was not and the prion stayed in dirt active


Prion is a Prion just the animal/human names change

whats happened with prions in Europe ie BSE under control right... we can do the same with CWD

David

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

assumption

the other two pens that had infective animals did not reinfect animals put into them .. as they were dis-infected and pen 3 was not and the prion stayed in dirt active


Prion is a Prion just the animal/human names change

whats happened with prions in Europe ie BSE under control right... we can do the same with CWD

David

In captive popuations....(ie. pens) perhaps yes....

....in wild popualtions....not a chance.

You are trying to compare 2 very different situations (penned BSE infection in Europe vs. free ranging wild population in Alberta) and put them under the same umbrella.....thats where you are not making sense on this David.

.....you are talking apple and turnips.....not apples and apples comparison.

LC

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by NIKON

Haress?
Who's harrassing , your saying we can't call the number you provided and ask the hard questions is considered harrassing ?........ Speaking of theories , alot of what's been going on with cwd has been based on theories...... Just like the theory of testing 320 deer around a positive deer and elk farm around Edmonton with no positives is sufficient to make claim the area cwd free .... I'll tell you what david you don't want to know and i feel they want this to be a border issue ........ They should have done a mandatory head submission in these cwd zones around edmonton knowing thousands of heads submitted along the border only proved a handful of cwd positives... Low percentages need 1000's of samples...... Why do you continue to dodge this issue?.....

Food for thought

these people are at the leading edge of their field and to try to baffle them with bs is wasting their time if you want their opinion then ask but if you want to debate then they don,t have the time for 115000 Alberta Hunter Experts..

again u are assuming that there are more CWD in and around 2 deer farms and one Elk farm that tested positive years ago and no road kill or other shot animals have tested postive in that area .. and if they thought that there was any chance then they would put it on the mandatory list of testing.. ps they are taking this outbreak very seriously and i agree with you that deer and elk farming are a risk and i do not agree with them here is the lastest deer farm


David

http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fu...704b9d1fbe3e64

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

In captive popuations....(ie. pens) perhaps yes....

....in wild popualtions....not a chance.

You are trying to compare 2 very different situations (penned BSE infection in Europe vs. free ranging wild population in Alberta) and put them under the same umbrella.....thats where you are not making sense on this David.

.....you are talking apple and turnips.....not apples and apples comparison.

LC

Prion is a Prion please look back at my CDC post

HHHmmmmmm what are the Canadian experts recommending
they want it under control and then when they can show you that it is not expanding you may be able to see

but hey i am no expert just i have had more time than most to read and keep up on these reports .. as i haven,t work in 17 years /injury pay out by insurance.. also i am Anilitical and Scienctific in Hunting and Angling

Food for Thought

David

[NIKON]

[QUOTE=Speckle55;1754736]these people are at the leading edge of their field and to try to baffle them with bs is wasting their time if you want their opinion then ask but if you want to debate then they don,t have the time for 115000 Alberta Hunter Experts..

again u are assuming that there are more CWD in and around 2 deer farms and one Elk frarm that tested positive years ago and no road kill or other shot animals have tested postive in that area .. and iof they thought that there was any chance then they would put it on the mandatory list of testing.. ps they are taking this outbreak very seriously and i agree wiotyh you that deer and elk farming are a risk and i do not agree with them here is the lastest deer farm


David

Here's the issue David, It's been proven you need 1000's of head submissions with low percentages...... Proven by them "the experts"
I agree they are taking this very serious to make this appear to be a border issue , yah I can agree with that........ What I don't agree with your theory that we need to cull areas of known cwd to stop or slow the spread because by then it's already established.... too late..... Maybe they should get ahead of this disease and start the cull in Quote cwd free zones if you want to take this seriously.......But would this work?... By culling you are creating a vaccuum and possibly infected deer are filling the void...... or if you go in and cull a hot spot , creates a vaccuum.... I can shoot holes in their theories all day long....... How many cwd positives does it take to infect a given area?...ONE??... How easy would this cwd be spread province wide from game farms in cwd proven areas?.... You can't test your domesticated stock before it would get sold.......So very easily you could spread cwd From the Alberta border to the western side of the province.... Let's just say they did a mandatory head submission in one of these known cwd pos elk farms around Edmonton and found a few cases of positives.... Then What?

Food for thought

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Prion is a Prion please look back at my CDC post

HHHmmmmmm what are the Canadian experts recommending
they want it under control and then when they can show you that it is not expanding you may be able to see

but hey i am no expert just i have had more time than most to read and keep up on these reports .. as i haven,t work in 17 years /injury pay out by insurance.. also i am Anilitical and Scienctific in Hunting and Angling

Food for Thought

David

I specialize in "Analytical" Instrumentation.....it could also be considered "Scientific"....that is what I do for work and what I have been doing for work for the past 15 years but this isn't about you and me and our qualifications David.

Again....you choose to not identify the point I was making, and instead choose to deflect the issue.

You would agree that taking a fish tank full of fish and studying that vs. studying a wild free swimming ocean ecosystem would not be comparing the same thing?....I hope you would. A person who is "Analytical" and "Scientific" should know the difference.

This situation you describe using European studies based on captive bovine hosts...is akin to studying a penned domestic herd vs. a free range wild herd.....they are NOT the same thing.

....see my point yet?

LC