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  #121  
Old 01-10-2014, 09:48 AM
markg markg is offline
 
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Default Robust debate

This is a very good and robust debate. I have heard commentors say that people working with seniors should be required to have there shots. The question I would ask is , if the seniors have had there shot and the vaccine provides such good protection then why should it matter if there health provider has had the shot?
I don't care if people get there shot or don't. That is an individuals choice. What I object to is the fear mongering. I also object to the vilification and derision heaped on people who make a educated decision one way or another about there own body. I was having a conversation with a person about this topic and the lady ranted on about " those people" who don't get there flu shot. It was funny when at the end of her rant she asked if I had in fact had my flu shot. She was so embarrassed. What this conversation made me realize was how powerful the media was in making people think a certain way. Frankly it's scarey how easy it is to take a segment of our population and turn them into a boogeyman.

Jus remember this when it's something you like or do or believe in that gets targeted. It's always easy point at the other guy

Last edited by markg; 01-10-2014 at 10:14 AM.
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  #122  
Old 01-10-2014, 10:35 AM
markg markg is offline
 
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Default Some Background

I have in fact in the past had my flu shot. If I remember correctly that last shot I had was my H1N1. I understand the science behind it and think that it is sound. I have had my polio shot and other such shots you get as a child and I am thankful that the shots I got as a child may have saved my life.

The last year I was vaccinated for the flu is the last time I did in fact come down with the flu and It wasn't a pleasant experience. I got my shot in October of that year and around Christmas of that year I got sick. As others in this discussion have mentioned the flu shot does not protect you against all strains of the virus, and this is one of the reasons I no longer take the shot.

My wife works in health care. She issues shots to animals. She has seen a rise in sarcoma's at injection sites and has seen a rise in the number of amputations as a result. She does not get flu shots. She is intelligent, well educated person with experience with vaccines.

My Family doctor has not gotten his flu shot this year. My Chiropractor does not get flu shots. Both of these men are very intelligent and well educated and have made a decision based on the science.

Flu shots have their merits, they can protect you against the virus, I dont dispute this. They do have negative consequences as well. Others on this discussion have mentioned Guillain–Barré syndrome, there is also evidence that they can cause narcolepsy. I think that the risk of these consequences outweighs the chance that i might come down with the flu. I am a middle age healthy person who should be able to live through the flu. If my health status changes and I will reconsider getting my flu shot.

Until that time I just ask that people stay the hell out of my life and not make me out to be some kind of idiot for making an informed decision or brand me as a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.
Thank you
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  #123  
Old 01-10-2014, 10:44 AM
markg markg is offline
 
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Default This is a weak argument

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Originally Posted by rhuntley12 View Post
Maybe should send people who don't get a flu shot a bill if they go and see the doctor or go to the hospital. I'd be ok with that.
I respectfully disagree with your line of reasoning. Statements like this dont end well. So i guess you would advocate stopping people who drink alcohol treatment for liver cancer? Should smokers be denied treatment for lung cancer? Should people who drive faster than 100Kmh be denied emergency treatment if they get in an accident? Its a slippery slope and eventually something you like or do or enjoy will come tumbling down the hill.
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  #124  
Old 01-10-2014, 11:37 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Without constructive debate, this subject will not move forward. I have mentioned my position that certain front line workers should be compelled to be immunized as a condition of employment...but there are also alternatives for them. As long as replacements are available, they don't come to work. Leave of absence without pay.
OR, on the work site they are required to wear masks, gloves, and garb.
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  #125  
Old 01-10-2014, 12:02 PM
markg markg is offline
 
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Default I agree to a point

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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Without constructive debate, this subject will not move forward. I have mentioned my position that certain front line workers should be compelled to be immunized as a condition of employment...but there are also alternatives for them. As long as replacements are available, they don't come to work. Leave of absence without pay.
OR, on the work site they are required to wear masks, gloves, and garb.
I think i could go along with most of this. The only place we would be divergent is that i would say that they should be paid if there employer decides to force them to either stay home or receive the shot.
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  #126  
Old 01-10-2014, 12:37 PM
MadMarty911 MadMarty911 is offline
 
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In the province of Alberta, EMS staff if they have chosen NOT to get the vaccination done, are required by AGS to be continually masked.

Students in some sites ie Calgary are gettin kicked off their practicun if they are not immunized and provide proof, or are unwilling to.

I have no intention of sharing whether I receive the vaccine or not every year or not.

I have no intention of making an arguement either FOR or AGAINST.

I have gone to countless "sick flu patients". I've flown countless more. I've had some die, others live. I can tell you right now that immunized and non immunized people are in all categories. Take what you will from that.

This is Canada. I like to believe in the freedom of choice whether I like it or not.
Certainly some immunizations are clearly beneficial with minor or no repucussions. But that does not give either you or me the right to judge.

The filth I see being spewed from mind to keyboard to my beloved AO forum is disgusting. Too much self entitlement to be armchair generals on each topic.

It's your opinion, state it and move on. I don't shove mine down your throat. Share in the same courtesy. Join a debate forum if that's all your interested in.
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  #127  
Old 01-10-2014, 01:42 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg View Post
I think i could go along with most of this. The only place we would be divergent is that i would say that they should be paid if there employer decides to force them to either stay home or receive the shot.
Indeed, the issue of pay to stay home would be a bit thorny and open to abuse, but it is only one of the choices...as the individual could still go to work, as long as they were masked and gloved up while doing jobs considered to be "at risk" for clients. Many employers for nursing homes are private contractors and might be a bit touchy about the bottom line of having to pay for leaves of absence, and also for the cost of providing replacements, often at overtime rates. Perhaps those employees that choose not to be immunized, could also choose to pay for loss of salary insurance?
A couple of issues that need to examined might be the relationship of "rights" to "responsibility". Also the concept that in some situations "your rights end where mine start".
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  #128  
Old 01-10-2014, 01:57 PM
midgetwaiter midgetwaiter is offline
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
Flu shots have their merits, they can protect you against the virus, I dont dispute this. They do have negative consequences as well. Others on this discussion have mentioned Guillain–Barré syndrome, there is also evidence that they can cause narcolepsy. I think that the risk of these consequences outweighs the chance that i might come down with the flu.
This link between Narcolepsy and the vaccine used in Europe in 2009 has been researched and is understood much better now than was originally reported. Subsequent investigation showed a higher incidence of unvaccinated children developing Narcolepsy after H1N1 exposure in China and other parts of Europe. Additional research has shown that the cause is an immune response that mistakenly targets part of the brain because of similar protein structures to the virus.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.UtBVqGRDvt2

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/sleeping-si...epsy-1.1524420

GBS is also thought to be triggered by your immune system. If you are at risk to develop it it's far more likely it will be triggered by the infection rather than the vaccine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg View Post
Until that time I just ask that people stay the hell out of my life and not make me out to be some kind of idiot for making an informed decision or brand me as a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.
Thank you
You are not making an informed decision and you are being selfish. I don't say this lightly either. Narcolepsy is prevalent in my family and I deal with the mess it makes every day. It's also very possible I or my children may develop this at some point in our lives. The best protection for me and my family is to have the people around us not spreading the virus that could trigger this and the best way for that to happen is immunization. There is a minuscule chance you might develop a complication from a vaccine but your decision could have a huge impact on someone else.
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  #129  
Old 01-10-2014, 09:51 PM
Emo Emo is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Without constructive debate, this subject will not move forward. I have mentioned my position that certain front line workers should be compelled to be immunized as a condition of employment...but there are also alternatives for them. As long as replacements are available, they don't come to work. Leave of absence without pay.
OR, on the work site they are required to wear masks, gloves, and garb.
What conditions should patients who have not been vaccinated have put on them in order to protect my health?

If you send home healthcare workers who decline the shot I would imagine you would send home a good sized chunk of your skilled workforce. Not always easily replaced either.

As others have pointed out, if those at risk have had their vaccinations why does it matter what everyone else has done? A worker who has been vaccinated (shot only covers 3 or 4 strains) could bring a different flu to work and infect someone. Then what?

Other people comparing the flu vaccination to hepatitus and polio and rabies vaccinations are ridiculous. You are comparing a seasonal virus that for MOST people is not deadly or serious to other viruses that can cause paralysis, neurological damage, long term liver damage, death and increased risks of cancer.

Expecting that everyone you come in contact with to have the flu shot because you have a medical condition that may be affected by the flu is in my opinion, selfish.
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  #130  
Old 01-10-2014, 10:06 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Emo - Patients in Nursing Homes don't go out much--probably 95% never leave the facility so their exposure is very limited. Caregiver protection options include: "the shot", or wearing a mask and gloves ..protection goes both ways.
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  #131  
Old 01-11-2014, 08:02 AM
backpacker backpacker is offline
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A lady friend of mine is still in the Mizz in Edmonton after two weeks of ICU treatment for the H1N1. They finally removed her breathing tube and she seems to be on the mend. I personly get the vaccination and it's scenarios like hers that convince me it is worthwhile. To each their own, by all means flip the coin and take your chances and those of your families.
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  #132  
Old 01-11-2014, 08:10 AM
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Our company had a nurse come into our office yesterday and anyone who wanted a shot was given it. Just happened to be in town, so I got it. My first.

Guess they are trying to avoid sick time at work. Good thing in my mind.

WASH HANDS.

Camps are the worse for catching something you don't really want.
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  #133  
Old 01-11-2014, 08:51 AM
graybeard graybeard is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda450 View Post
Our company had a nurse come into our office yesterday and anyone who wanted a shot was given it. Just happened to be in town, so I got it. My first.

Guess they are trying to avoid sick time at work. Good thing in my mind.

WASH HANDS.

Camps are the worse for catching something you don't really want.
You hit it on the head; personal hygiene is what is most important. The fact that you use soap or a hand sanitizer, it is the amount you scrub your hands. It is the scrubbing that removes the germs.

Every time you walk past a dispenser, use it...........
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  #134  
Old 01-11-2014, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backpacker View Post
A lady friend of mine is still in the Mizz in Edmonton after two weeks of ICU treatment for the H1N1. They finally removed her breathing tube and she seems to be on the mend. I personly get the vaccination and it's scenarios like hers that convince me it is worthwhile. To each their own, by all means flip the coin and take your chances and those of your families.
The lady that died was a friend of my daughter in Law. All the flu shots the government sucked Albertans into taking wouldn't have helped her or anyone else who got the shot. She was 27, well outside the definition of vulnerable and that virus is not included in the regimen. Now that the vaccine is done, the powers that be, have the balls to claim it isn't such a big deal after all and you don't need it. I believe in vaccination, just not Flu shots.

Grizz
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  #135  
Old 01-11-2014, 09:45 AM
Mb-MBR Mb-MBR is offline
 
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After much consideration and research as well as consulting my physician, I decided to get the flu shot. I figure he's taken the training and he answered all of my questions and trusted his advice.

My only other option was to sleep at a Holiday Inn and make an uninformed decision. My body, my decision just like everyone else on this forum.

One of my son's friend, healthy young physically fit 33 year old has been in an induced coma since Christmas due to the H1N1 flu. They're not sure what the prognosis is for him.
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  #136  
Old 01-11-2014, 03:22 PM
markg markg is offline
 
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Default How am I not making an informed decision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by midgetwaiter View Post
This link between Narcolepsy and the vaccine used in Europe in 2009 has been researched and is understood much better now than was originally reported. Subsequent investigation showed a higher incidence of unvaccinated children developing Narcolepsy after H1N1 exposure in China and other parts of Europe. Additional research has shown that the cause is an immune response that mistakenly targets part of the brain because of similar protein structures to the virus.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...l#.UtBVqGRDvt2

http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/sleeping-si...epsy-1.1524420

GBS is also thought to be triggered by your immune system. If you are at risk to develop it it's far more likely it will be triggered by the infection rather than the vaccine.



You are not making an informed decision and you are being selfish. I don't say this lightly either. Narcolepsy is prevalent in my family and I deal with the mess it makes every day. It's also very possible I or my children may develop this at some point in our lives. The best protection for me and my family is to have the people around us not spreading the virus that could trigger this and the best way for that to happen is immunization. There is a minuscule chance you might develop a complication from a vaccine but your decision could have a huge impact on someone else.
I take issue with your statement. I respect your right to your opinions but to call me selfish and uninformed crosses the line. I spoke with my family doctor who told me that I don't need my shot. I spoke with my Chiropractor who told me I don't need the shot. I spoke with my wife who administers shots everyday same answer. Frankly I have put more time and research into this then most people out there. I guess if I don't watch the tv news programs and follow there instructions and fear mongering then I am uninformed?
So a person is to be considered selfish if they view there health choices in a different light then you. This I find very offensive. I am sure you do things in your life that others might find questionable with regards to your health. Do they have the right to call you selfish?
We as a society had better start to be careful. We want to shine the light of criticism on other peoples lives activities and choices and claim the moral high ground but remember the bright hot white light of critisism burns very brightly when shone on the dark corners of your own life.
My apologies to you if I take your comments the wrong way. If I am overreacting and hurting your feelings I am sorry. We are after all fellow outdoorsman and have that as a common bond.
Ps I am not telling anyone not to get the flu shot. I don't care one way or the other what anyone else does with there health. All I am saying is stop vilifying people who choose not to get a flu shot.

Last edited by markg; 01-11-2014 at 03:28 PM. Reason: More info
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  #137  
Old 01-11-2014, 03:41 PM
Scott h Scott h is offline
 
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"Now that the vaccine is done, the powers that be, have the balls to claim it isn't such a big deal after all and you don't need it."

Nobody is saying that H1N1 is no big deal. They have to ration the remaining vaccine to those that are highest priority.Any body that wanted it had over two months to get it. Nobody better complain now.

"One of my son's friend, healthy young physically fit 33 year old has been in an induced coma since Christmas due to the H1N1 flu. They're not sure what the prognosis is for him."

This is what those against the vaccine refuse to acknowledge. It's killing otherwise healthy people. The death toll would be much higher if it wasn't for rapid improvements in ventilation technology, ECHMO and temporary dialysis (PRISMA). Many that survive will have permanent organ damage.


"A lady friend of mine is still in the Mizz in Edmonton after two weeks of ICU treatment for the H1N1. They finally removed her breathing tube and she seems to be on the mend."

I'm glad she made it. After she's extubated she still has a long road ahead.
Everyone that thinks that it's "just the flu" should go see what being ventilated entails.
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  #138  
Old 01-11-2014, 03:46 PM
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i feel like people think the flu is just one strain. they get the shot, then they get the flu claiming the vaccine didnt work or it gave it to them.

what really happened is they probably either got a different strain, they were sick already, or they didnt have the flu but are convinced they did.

this flu shot will protect against H1N1 and a few other strains. if it lowers the chance of me getting wiped out for a week, ill take it.

i got my shot 2 weeks ago.
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  #139  
Old 01-11-2014, 06:16 PM
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http://www.albertahealthservices.ca/...vel-report.pdf


Rates of immunization for 2013-2014 flu shot across AHC facilities as of Jan 6 2014.
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  #140  
Old 01-12-2014, 04:05 PM
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http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/is-...-month-before/
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  #141  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:51 PM
fulltime pops fulltime pops is offline
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I'm gonna wait tell it dies down a bit, say maybe Friday I'll go. Line ups are like hell!! ... people prolly have a better chance of getting it while waiting in line for 2hrs...now that's a risk I'm not gonna take. There is only two locations too get the flu shots. Alberta Health needs to distribute vaccines to pharmacys
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  #142  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:54 PM
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I'm gonna wait tell it dies down a bit, say maybe Friday I'll go. Line ups are like hell!! ... people prolly have a better chance of getting it while waiting in line for 2hrs...now that's a risk I'm not gonna take. There is only two locations too get the flu shots. Alberta Health needs to distribute vaccines to pharmacys
i got mine at a pharmacy
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  #143  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:58 PM
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i got mine at a pharmacy
local pharmacy's here were giving it out untill the supply ran dry
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  #144  
Old 01-12-2014, 08:19 PM
Chukman Chukman is offline
 
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This makes 24 years in a row that I got flu shot.... And you know what ? I've NEVER had the flu. Imagine that. Lost one 12 year old niece to the flu, don't want to ever go through that again. Get your shot !!!
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  #145  
Old 01-12-2014, 11:33 PM
Big Daddy Badger Big Daddy Badger is offline
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Originally Posted by markg View Post
This is a very good and robust debate. I have heard commentors say that people working with seniors should be required to have there shots. The question I would ask is , if the seniors have had there shot and the vaccine provides such good protection then why should it matter if there health provider has had the shot?
I don't care if people get there shot or don't. That is an individuals choice. What I object to is the fear mongering. I also object to the vilification and derision heaped on people who make a educated decision one way or another about there own body. I was having a conversation with a person about this topic and the lady ranted on about " those people" who don't get there flu shot. It was funny when at the end of her rant she asked if I had in fact had my flu shot. She was so embarrassed. What this conversation made me realize was how powerful the media was in making people think a certain way. Frankly it's scarey how easy it is to take a segment of our population and turn them into a boogeyman.

Jus remember this when it's something you like or do or believe in that gets targeted. It's always easy point at the other guy
Makes more sense to force everyone to have the damn shot than just one small segment oif society.
Its about herd strength folks.
Besides, anyone advocating an infringment on the rights of medical personnel...should not mind theirs being equally infringed upon.
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  #146  
Old 01-13-2014, 08:19 AM
sikwhiskey sikwhiskey is offline
 
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Health Impact News Editor

We are in the thick of the flu season, and news reports show that several places in the U.S. and Canada are experiencing outbreaks of illnesses due to the H1N1 virus, including some deaths.

In the report below, the tragic story is told of a 5-year-old boy who died from the H1N1 virus in Oregon just after Christmas, even though he and his siblings had received the flu vaccine in November.



I applaud Fox 12 in Oregon for interviewing Calandra Burgess and publishing her testimony that her son died from H1N1 even though he received this year’s flu vaccine. I have researched about a dozen or more stories reporting deaths and outbreaks of the H1N1 flu virus all across America, but in most cases these stories do not report whether or not those dying from H1N1 have received the flu vaccine. Even in other stories reporting the death of the Burgess boy in Oregon, the fact that he was vaccinated with the flu vaccine is not mentioned. (UPDATE Friday Jan. 10: Woman in West Virginia dies from H1N1 after receiving the flu shot.)

In almost every story regarding the H1N1 flu outbreaks, the public is urged to get this year’s flu vaccine as the best protection against the H1N1 virus. This year’s flu vaccine, as in past years since 2009, contains the H1N1 strain.

However, is the public being told the whole story regarding H1N1 and the flu vaccine? As the tragic story above illustrates, the flu vaccine, at the very least, is no guarantee that it will protect you from H1N1. There were over 140 million doses of the flu vaccine produced this year, and reports show that vaccination rates are high, and yet we are seeing the largest outbreak of the H1N1 virus since 2009.

Could the Flu Vaccine Actually be Contributing to These Outbreaks?
This is the one question that will never be asked in the mainstream media, so let’s take a look at some facts.

During the 2008 – 2009 flu season when the H1N1 vaccine was introduced, Canadians were the first ones to observe that people who received the H1N1 flu vaccine seemed to be sicker than those who did not.

So some Canadian researchers decided to test the H1N1 vaccine against a placebo with ferrets. In their experiment, all the ferrets who received the vaccine were sicker (See: Study finds flu shot really did make people sicker).

Infectious diseases expert Professor Peter Collignon from Australia looked at the data in Canada and Hong Kong from the 2008 – 2009 flu season, and drew similar conclusions: ”What was a bit surprising when we looked at some of the data from Canada and Hong Kong in the last year is that people who have been vaccinated in 2008 with the seasonal or ordinary vaccine seemed to have twice the risk of getting swine flu compared to the people who hadn’t received that vaccine.” (Source.)

So researchers in Hong Kong decided to also study this issue and they conducted a double-blind placebo-controlled trial on children with the trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine. Their results were published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases in 2012, and they found that the seasonal trivalent flu vaccine resulted in 5.5 times more incidents of respiratory illness than the placebo group. See Heidi Stevenson’s excellent article on this study here.

These are just a few samples of some of the studies showing problems with the H1N1 vaccine that you are not likely to read in the mainstream media.

But perhaps the most significant study of all involving H1N1 was a study conducted in the U.S. and published in 2013. Microbiologist Dr. Hana Golding of the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research at Bethesda in Maryland conducted a study on piglets vaccinated for H1N2, and then later exposed to H1N1. As Lin Edwards of Medical Xpress reports:

They vaccinated “naive” piglets (those that had never been exposed to flu viruses) against the H1N2 influenza strain and later exposed them to the rare H1N1 virus, which is the virus responsible for the 2009 swine flu pandemic.

When the piglets were vaccinated they produced a wide range of antibodies to block the H1N2 virus, but these “cross-reactive” antibodies not only failed to provide protection against the second virus, H1N1, but appeared to actually help the H1N1 virus infiltrate lung tissue and cause more severe symptoms and respiratory system complications such as pneumonia and lung damage. The unvaccinated controls suffered milder pneumonia and fewer other complications. (Source.)

So vaccinating for certain flu strains can actually cause the H1N1 virus to create even more severe complications, such as pneumonia and lung damage, which is exactly what we are seeing here in 2014 with the current H1N1 outbreaks.

Independent Investigations are Needed
So let’s bring all these facts together with what we know today.

1. According to Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease expert monitoring the flu at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, this season the H1N1 strain has hit healthy children and young adults especially hard and many have ended up in the ICU. However, he states: ”This virus doesn’t affect the older population as much because back in the 1970s the older persons were younger and there was a virus very similar to it that went around. They got infected, they recovered and now they still have residual protection against viruses in this family.” (Source.) This is called “natural immunity,” and it is what caused populations to not die off from infectious diseases before vaccines were developed in modern history. It is far different than the theory of vaccines purported today, which creates “antibodies” in a medical-induced way of trying to create immunity (See Dr. Sherri Tenpenny’s explanation of the difference between “natural immunity” and vaccine “antibodies” in the short video below).

2. In the 2008 – 2009 flu season, America saw an outbreak of the H1N1 virus. The response of the medical community was to develop a vaccine for the H1N1 virus. Unfortunately, studies seem to point to the fact that the vaccine can have negative consequences, and caused some people to have worse flu symptoms than those who were not vaccinated (see discussion above with links to some of these studies).

3. Here at the beginning of 2014, we are seeing a new outbreak of H1N1 and it is becoming quite severe, resulting in some deaths. Early indications seem to point to the possibility of a more severe flu outbreak of H1N1 in 2014 than what we saw in 2009 when there was no vaccine. It is actually affecting healthy, younger people more than older people. If we had allowed everyone to contract the H1N1 back in 2009 and NOT develop a vaccine, allowing natural immunity to occur as opposed to vaccine antibodies, would we have these outbreaks again here in 2014?

4. The H1N1 virus has been included in the seasonal flu shot now since 2009. This year over 140 million doses were produced and they are currently in circulation.

Are we missing the bigger picture here?? Are the profits from 140 million doses of flu vaccines so large that nobody dares to ask the tough questions, knowing full well what the results will be if we follow the data to their logical conclusions?

For the sake of public health, and the safety of Americans, it is time that the media and medical professionals start asking the tough questions. Lawrence Solomon, the research director at Toronto-based Consumer Policy Institute, wrote a column for The Huffington Post in Canada this week titled: Why the Press Shouldn’t Dismiss Vaccine Skeptics. More people in the press need to step up and ask the tough questions.

Independent investigations by those with no financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry that produces vaccines is sorely needed (which excludes the U.S. government where billions of dollars is tied into vaccine research.) In the meantime, do your own research on the risks and benefits of the flu vaccine. The facts may not support what you read in the mainstream media, or what your doctor is telling you.



See Also:

Flu Vaccine is the most Dangerous Vaccine in the U. S. based on Settled Cases for Injuries


Study: Flu Vaccination Makes the Flu Worse




Never had the flu shot, never will. Had the flu over christmas, 2-3 days later back to normal. How many of those who died from the Flu in Alberta this year had their Shot already????? There has not nearly been enough unbiased research done with the "Flu Shot" for me to run out and stand in line to get immunized....... and there isn't a chance in he11 I'll act as a guinea pig. Plenty of lab rats already out there.
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:35 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Want a real scare, google the side effects of aspirin ---one of the wonders of the internet is that if you look long enough, you can find someone that says exactly what you want to hear.
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Old 01-13-2014, 03:41 PM
sikwhiskey sikwhiskey is offline
 
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What I would like to hear is; How many of the 10 people who died have had their up to date shot? And Have they ever had the vaccine?
kind of difficult to get this info, I'm sure there is a record of it though.
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:57 PM
MadMarty911 MadMarty911 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Want a real scare, google the side effects of aspirin ---one of the wonders of the internet is that if you look long enough, you can find someone that says exactly what you want to hear.

Try Tylenol
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Old 01-13-2014, 06:57 PM
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Gade81 Gade81 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Want a real scare, google the side effects of aspirin ---one of the wonders of the internet is that if you look long enough, you can find someone that says exactly what you want to hear.
Exactly. And those with the most money usually have the most propaganda.
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