E-COLLARS.....or beat your dog. same?

[ACKLEY ABE]

Well, that should get some blood boiling. Don' shoot me, just looking for some comments on the use (and miss-use) of E-collars. Figured the title would draw some looks.

[Bigdad013]

My uncle uses the E fence collar. It didn't take the dog long to figure out the perimeter of the yard, he lives on a small acreage. After a few months, he turned the fence off, when the dog goes out they put the collar on, and the dog has never gone beyond the perimeter. If they forget to put the collar on, he's gone. That has been 4 years now without turning it on.

[landowner]

Depends on the dog.

[bang_on_sk]

I used one while training my dog, but have since stopped as he doesn't seem to need it any more. I think being able to jolt him to get his attention is better that having him take off and get hit by a car.

He has a bark collar too, it didn't take him long to figure out that the first one is free. Again, we don't use it that much anymore, but when it's on him (the batteries are dead now) he only ever barks once. If he's having a barking fit you only have to show it to him and he settles down.

[oldgutpile]

How can you actually make a comparison between "beating" your dog and a "E" collar? I guess if you are brutally abusive of the collar, maybe.
An "E" collar can be used just to "buzz" or warn a trained dog to stay in line, and with my own dog, that is usually enough. I have multi levels of reprimand at my discretion as well. AND, lets not forget that many times the collar has that hard-love effect to keep them out of harms way, like traffic, snakes, porky's, and skunks!

[ACKLEY ABE]

Wasn't making any comparison.

[densa44]

I'm going to use the collar to get a bit more control when I say come. Long line + collar. I'll let you know how it goes. I want to put it on her to stress whoa. later this week with a pigeon.

[Don K]

With the collar the dogs learn quicker and don't fear their handler. Once the dog has been corrected the use of the collar is very minimal. Used to use them on bird dogs and they were great.
Even the most stubborn dogs will correct with a 12 volt car battery strapped on their back!

[jryley]

Ive found most people that do in fact classify E-collars as abuse are usually people that have 1. Never used or held one for that matter and therefore have absolutely no idea what an Ecollar actually is, and 2. Have definitely never tried it on themselves and therefore have no idea that it simply feels like a tingly vibration when used on a respectable level. Theres no pain!

So no, its no where near 'beating' your dog. Beating your dog inflicts fear into the animal, E-collars give him a vibrating wakeup call.

[Sledhead71]

To be brutally honest, the "E" collar is more so a correction device and not anything more than that if used properly...

Key being used properly, but that being said, ones who don't use this method correctly most likely don't train properly either.

I can train a pup in six months using the correction collar, where most struggle to achieve this in years.

I use the locate style collar, so there is a mild warning / beep to indicate I am the alpha and listening is a must or there is correction applied at a MILD stimulation to grab their attention.

I don't yell, beat or scold the hound, simply put he knows his place in the pack and when he feels the need to test, well he learns this is not acceptable..

[Nova]

Personally I wish the companies that make these would get into some quality vibration only collars, something with varied intensity, pulse patterns, ect.

[Rusty P. Bucket]

The e-collar is most useful to advanced handlers training their dogs for things like obedience, tracking, self defence or competition.

For guys like me, who only needs the dog to do half a dozen basic commands like sit, stay, lay down, etc - a box of cookies and a rolled up newspaper suffice for training purposes.

[rhuntley12]

Has worked good when taking dog horseback riding with us. Since can't have direct control when something distracts him a quick little vibrate or shock gets his focus back on me.

Also helps him to learn to respect the horses as he would just stand in front of them when they were walking as well as walked too close to them. Prevents him getting stepped on or a horse breaking a leg.

[wwbirds]

Fact 1. thousands of collars in use in Canada with a handfull of people that know how to use them.

Fact 2 if you are using the collar for punishment training then very similar to beating the dog.

Fact 3 E collar was designed as an escape avoidance training technique so unless the dog already knows the command and how to turn off the trickle electricity by responding immediately look back to fact 2.

Fact 4 You can not train anything with an electric collar only reinforce what the dog already knows to make them respond faster.

Fact 5 Teach train and only when you are 99 % sure of success test the dog.

Fact 6 E collars are viewed as harsh training when in fact used properly they are positive reinforcement training and not negative at all.

Fact 7 More dogs are probably ruined with e collars than are trained as the frustrated owner often get button happy and the dog does not know how to please them so quits ( better to do nothing and avoid correction) or gets out of range.

Fact 8 The collar is only as good as the person behind it as a tool. Amateur or inexperienced trainers using a collar can really cause a lot of harm in a short period of time with a collar. Big tools can make big mistakes.
A check cord and some patience goes a long way towards training a dog.

Fact 9 If you give a command and have no way to change the dogs behavior you have just taught the dog he doesn't have to listen. The collar doesn't lead them to the correct decision but the check cord will.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Fact 1. thousands of collars in use in Canada with a handfull of people that know how to use them.

Fact 2 if you are using the collar for punishment training then very similar to beating the dog.

Fact 3 E collar was designed as an escape avoidance training technique so unless the dog already knows the command and how to turn off the trickle electricity by responding immediately look back to fact 2.

Fact 4 You can not train anything with an electric collar only reinforce what the dog already knows to make them respond faster.

Fact 5 Teach train and only when you are 99 % sure of success test the dog.

Fact 6 E collars are viewed as harsh training when in fact used properly they are positive reinforcement training and not negative at all.

Fact 7 More dogs are probably ruined with e collars than are trained as the frustrated owner often get button happy and the dog does not know how to please them so quits ( better to do nothing and avoid correction) or gets out of range.

Fact 8 The collar is only as good as the person behind it as a tool. Amateur or inexperienced trainers using a collar can really cause a lot of harm in a short period of time with a collar. Big tools can make big mistakes.
A check cord and some patience goes a long way towards training a dog.

Fact 9 If you give a command and have no way to change the dogs behavior you have just taught the dog he doesn't have to listen. The collar doesn't lead them to the correct decision but the check cord will.

great post.

[Iron Brew]

Number 9

[threeforthree]

You could beat this subject to death, I use and will always use a e collar, after about 6 months u will not even turn it on, just place it on and the dog has a different view in training or in the field, you may only use the tone button.When I pull out my collar all my dogs run up to me and sit down and can not wait for me to place it on them .....WHY..because they know its time to go to work. I have heard but never have seen a dog go south because of an E collar...not saying it may not happen, all dogs are different some are shy and timid , others a semi could hit them and they bounce back ..to me there is nothing worse than hunting with a guy yelling at his dog ..get back get back,,,,when used as it should be ,,only when a dog knows the command it takes all emotion out of the , you will not have to yell your head off, a slight tingle and the dog knows it was in the wrong..just don't throw a E collar on the dog and expect him to preform what you want. i train with a e collar and a long line at the same time , and will drop the long line in a month or so. Get a good program and collar condition your dog. some day it might save its live.

[Pixel Shooter]

Great post Rob and discussion thread.

The only thing I can add is just based on posts read in thread and my experience of people shown up on my step with dog looking for help, dogs get collar wise if not introduced and used correctly. My dogs go nutz when I bring the collars out because it means something good to them , whether training, walk , bike ride, its time with the pups. They have no clue where the pressure is coming from hence why they listen regardless if collar on or off. Like training, its all about consistency

Properly collar conditioning a dog including debolting and knowing how and when to apply direct or indirect pressure, and key is timing of correction. Being clear in communication. Using collars at the right level, its not about showing who is boss and burning a dog, its about fine tuning to find a level where you can get a behaviour change. I have one dog on level 2 and one on level 3 out of 21 if and when used. e-collars are not a magic want, a tool that needs to be respected that is used for reinforcing not training. When used properly it is a very effective tool to have bar none. I think the tone button is useless personally and dont know a single professional trainer use them , lots of discussion on that topic over the years. Im speaking retrievers, no idea on upland dogs.

Think I had my first e-collar back in 1984. They have made a few enhancements since then LOL, got to luv technology.

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Fact 1. thousands of collars in use in Canada with a handfull of people that know how to use them.

Fact 2 if you are using the collar for punishment training then very similar to beating the dog.

Fact 3 E collar was designed as an escape avoidance training technique so unless the dog already knows the command and how to turn off the trickle electricity by responding immediately look back to fact 2.

Fact 4 You can not train anything with an electric collar only reinforce what the dog already knows to make them respond faster.

Fact 5 Teach train and only when you are 99 % sure of success test the dog.

Fact 6 E collars are viewed as harsh training when in fact used properly they are positive reinforcement training and not negative at all.

Fact 7 More dogs are probably ruined with e collars than are trained as the frustrated owner often get button happy and the dog does not know how to please them so quits ( better to do nothing and avoid correction) or gets out of range.

Fact 8 The collar is only as good as the person behind it as a tool. Amateur or inexperienced trainers using a collar can really cause a lot of harm in a short period of time with a collar. Big tools can make big mistakes.
A check cord and some patience goes a long way towards training a dog.

Fact 9 If you give a command and have no way to change the dogs behavior you have just taught the dog he doesn't have to listen. The collar doesn't lead them to the correct decision but the check cord will.

[aulrich]

Happily I think my dog has survived me running his e-collar so far, but like WW said there were times had I bolted on ahead it would have been a disaster. Since I am on my first dog, the over arching mission statement has been don't screw up the dog. so if it takes me twice as long to do something I can live with it.

First mistake I made was not understanding the real difference between from a trainer perspective Nick and continuous stimulation. So to counter act that I got a collar that had both TT field 90.

That lead me into my next mistake, and that is it's hard to have too much increments in those levels the field 90 has 6.

When we did the first into I followed the steps from the Tri-tronics video, but that lead me to a combo mistake, Not having the collar fitted correctly, which effected how well I could read if the dog felt it. I went from nothing to a yelp in one increment.(see also more increments is better)

Needless to say it only tok a couple of minutes and a hand full of stimulations to figure out something was wrong, I stopped right away. We found his recall improved with just the beeper so we left it at that for a while. Then a happy accident happened Skunkboy lost the controller.

After more research I found out that most systems use continuous stim and I need more increments. Happily I called the folks at Tri-tronics and as it turns out I can use any of the the G3 controllers with the collar I had.

So eventually I got a field 100 controller 18 levels of continuous and 6 of nick and the Hickox Pointing dog video. and the system does actually work well, though I am not convinced on the belly contact for whoa. But that does bring me to my last mistake.

Reading my dog, in lots of the videos out there that do collar conditioning the dogs are going into the mid range for the controllers without an issue. So when I am doing whoa at 2 medium and the poor boy is not yelping but is clearly not happy I hit the breaks again.

So it came down to two things, confused by not knowing whoa or over stim. Because of my cautions nature I pull out the whoa table and start back at the beginning. then I get back to where I was then I use the collar one more time. let me tell you, each time I came back to the collar I was more and more reluctant.

But I did give it one more try, now I still don't see those classic tells. But that last time but at 1 low I saw a response in behavior. so I did not up the power then. No over time I have found that 1 low is good for in the yard and very calm, 1 medium is good for a little hyper 1 high is good with distractions.

4 medium if he is chasing deer (he only did that once, felt bad but that is what it took to get his attention)

Forever we have been trying to train Dash to heal and that is the last command in the Hickox system. Up till now we have tried everything treat choke chains, special leads, but got no heel. 15 min with a cc and the collar and he had it.

E-collars are like bikinis less is more

In my case it was a combination caution , luck and a good dog that got me through. He obedience has really tightened up but he has kept his spirit.

It's no replacement for boot leather and time.

Sorry for the wall of text

[farmerpk]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Fact 1. thousands of collars in use in Canada with a handfull of people that know how to use them.

Fact 2 if you are using the collar for punishment training then very similar to beating the dog.

Fact 3 E collar was designed as an escape avoidance training technique so unless the dog already knows the command and how to turn off the trickle electricity by responding immediately look back to fact 2.

Fact 4 You can not train anything with an electric collar only reinforce what the dog already knows to make them respond faster.

Fact 5 Teach train and only when you are 99 % sure of success test the dog.

Fact 6 E collars are viewed as harsh training when in fact used properly they are positive reinforcement training and not negative at all.

Fact 7 More dogs are probably ruined with e collars than are trained as the frustrated owner often get button happy and the dog does not know how to please them so quits ( better to do nothing and avoid correction) or gets out of range.

Fact 8 The collar is only as good as the person behind it as a tool. Amateur or inexperienced trainers using a collar can really cause a lot of harm in a short period of time with a collar. Big tools can make big mistakes.
A check cord and some patience goes a long way towards training a dog.

Fact 9 If you give a command and have no way to change the dogs behavior you have just taught the dog he doesn't have to listen. The collar doesn't lead them to the correct decision but the check cord will.

Perfect response ! Enough said.

[catnthehat]

I was brought up in a house full of labs, and the only collar i ever saw was in the adds in Outdoor life and Field and Stream , apparently they were to stop dogs from barking !
Grew up through the years with a check chord and a soft or strong voice, and using James Lamb Free's training techniques- only because that was was I was taught to use!
Never used an E collar until my son got his GSP, and it gets used very little.
He has a passion for chasing deer however, and if he thinks he can get away with it, he does!!

The collar I like best however is the one I got from Dan King from the 28 Gauge Society, with it's audio locator.
Our bush up here is thick and at times Louie has locked up on birds in thick cat tails as well, and without the locator he would probably still be on point!!
Cat

[ACKLEY ABE]

Some great information, guys, which, of course, was the intent of the controversial title.

[Fisherpeak]

I spent over a grand on one of our dogs that just bolted after some deer and got hit by a truck.Could NOT stop her,wish I`d had an E collar then.I have a hound 10 month old pup that will do the same,I`m getting the collar.

[densa44]

Have the pup stopping on her own to point with a check cord, have added the collar and use the buzz feature. Later this week try with no check cord just collar.

[aulrich]

Before I strapped it onto the dog I felt it for myself. 1 low I could barely feel, I made it to 3 high. It's hard to call it pain, but you know something is going on.