Another case of Too Much Best Of The West

The biggest thing with wind is knowing when to shoot and when not to. Wind is simple to compensate for with the new fangled gadgets they offer now adays. If wind is sub 10mph and constant, it's pretty much a no brainer with the right gear. If the wind is stronger and gusting....get closer or wait for another day. Same as temperature variation....you run the numbers through a ballistic program. A six year old can do that.

I'd rather see guys trying long shots with technology on their sides than without it because you know most still would. I think shows like BOTW do an excellent job of explaining how gear works and what the shooter needs to do to become proficient. There's a lot of education in those shows....for those that listen.

[decker]

A thumbs up for BOTW as well, lots of good information to help improve your shooting skill both in the field and at the range. I have a gong set at around 450 yards that I practice with. I don't shoot at it off the bench at it but will try and set up conditions that I will encounter in the field. And higher end equipment does make the guess work out of shooting longer distances.
I invest alot of time shooting and reloading.
I had a member question my ability one time and I realized I needed to shoot more to become better.

Originally Posted by decker

I don't shoot at it off the bench at it but will try and set up conditions that I will encounter in the field. .

And I think that is the one aspect a lot of shooters miss out on. The real world is a lot different than the bench. We do the same Decker. The bench is a great place to work up a load or zero a rifle but after that its usefulness kinda goes out the window. I've seen some self-proclaimed expert shooters kick butt on the bench but out in the real world, it's another story.

[decker]

And shooting free hand is another that I have been doing, and I agree the bench should be used for developing a load or sighting in and thats it.

[nekred]

There is a tool developed for reading wind...using different wavelengths. The emitter emits multiple different wavelengths that bounce back and with the reader it can predict what bullet drift will be from the deviance in the waves as well as range.

Cannot go into any more detail than that!.

We think 1000 yards is a long shot.... Tanks routinely shoot 4000 yards with a 97% first hit probability. Admittedly on a larger target than a moose but still pretty accurate... As technology advances and gets smaller we will see even more developments which are transfering ballistic knowledge from large arms to small arms....

[elkhunter11]

or if you have different wind speeds and directions between launch pint and target point....

Which happens fairly often, especially over uneven terrain, or with broken cover. The problem is that many people fail to comprehend that this does occur. A portable wind meter held by the shooter, only tells you the wind direction and speed at the shooter, and that can change significantly over 700 yards or more. It can even be a factor at 400 yards in some situations.
Technology does help with simplifying long range shooting, but it can't replace trigger time altogether,which is the impression that some people are left with, after watching shows like BOTW.

[lattery1]

Originally Posted by decker

And shooting free hand is another that I have been doing, and I agree the bench should be used for developing a load or sighting in and thats it.

Thats for sure. I have a 12" gong 525yds off my back deck that I shoot at at least twice a week. I can hit it 99 % of the time even in a decent cross wind off the bench. Yesterday I missed 4 times offhand before connecting and there was almost no wind. It humbles you up pretty fast when you try shooting past a couple of hundred yards offhand.

Just curious...how long is the Fort Mac range?

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Which happens fairly often, especially over uneven terrain, or with broken cover. The problem is that many people fail to comprehend that this does occur. .

After playing with wind a lot here the past two years.....it happens a lot less than one would think. Wind is actually fairly constant and predictable....not totally....but much more than many think. I also find that most people, myself included, are very poor judges of wind speed. 10mph is a pretty stiff breeze.

[decker]

Originally Posted by lattery1

Thats for sure. I have a 12" gong 525yds off my back deck that I shoot at at least twice a week. I can hit it 99 % of the time even in a decent cross wind off the bench. Yesterday I missed 4 times offhand before connecting and there was almost no wind. It humbles you up pretty fast when you try shooting past a couple of hundred yards offhand.

You shoot that gong freehand?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just curious...how long is the Fort Mac range?

We have a certified 500 meter silhouette range and steel at 8, 9, and 1000 yards.
Cat

[lattery1]

Originally Posted by decker

You shoot that gong freehand?

Not often, just give it a whirl every once in a while. Like I said I missed 4 times before hitting it offhand and I know exactly where to hold from shooting off the bench.

Originally Posted by catnthehat

We have a certified 500 meyter silhouette range and steel at 8, 9, and 1000 yards.
Cat

That is awesome....I'm jealous.

Do you see a lot of hunters shooting at those ranges Cat or is it more the serious bench guys?

[nekred]

I found BOTW did mention that lots of trigger time is required, but the impression left on many people is their own interpretation...as sheephunter said... if they choose to listen.

Of course many people watch the videos and of course there is hype, would people watch it if there wasn't!?....

Then they get out to try the techniques and equipment, and suddenly they are shooting better then they want to shoot more and before you know it they have put in the trigger time and then can come on an online forum and talk about how great it is to shoot well, until they become a jaded grumpy old fert and then put everyone else down that is in a learning stage...

BOTW is getting people on ranges with better equipment than they have had... Sure it is over-priced and hyped... but who cares people are out shooting.

How much has range membership went up since BOTW and other companies were willing to take the risk and show on camera what most of us love to do!...

I find myself falling into a trap... I see some archers who don't know a bloody thing and fling arrows, hit a 10" circle at 20 yards and then plan to go hunting and shoot animals at 70 yards. I used to get all bent out of shape now I try and be the nicest guy in the range. Hey at least they are out giving it a go. If they give me invitation to help I often take it... if they don't does not really affect me unless I let it... and if I don't have time to take invitation then that is my choice... However I usually take the opportunity because others did with me...

In 3D I have seen new archers get turned off by the "experts" and I have also seen some "pro's" (Short for promotor) give a new archer an opportunity to learn and it hooks them on the sport and next thing you know they are a promotor.

Back 20 years ago when I was new I saw a guy that was a great shooterand I asked him a question on what it would take to shoot like that.. and he said grumpily... you just have to put in enough shooting time and pay your dues!....

Shortly after that I saw another "expert" (pronunced ex spurt... meaning a former drip under pressure!) and saw he had a new style of stabiliser that I had read about and asked about it and explained I was interested and that i had read about it and what he thought of it... he was wearing a shirt with that brand name on it... so should have been a promotor and he gruffly told me... "Well if you read about it you already know........"

I could have used these negative experiences to kill my enthusiasm for the sport. I always said if I ever became part of a promotional staff, or had promotional staff i would never be such a dick....

Fortunately i had a fellow who spent a lot of time helping me, answering questions and got me going in archery that more than made up for the dicks...

So back to the original post, here is a guy trying to get better and thinking the equipment will make the shooter and those of us who know that equipment can help but it will never make the shooter, we can deal with it in one of two ways... we can be a help or be a dick....

A dick thing is to post on here how this donkey... thinking that a brand new shiny gadget will help when he could not hit a barn door with a bucket of rice from inside the barn....

The help thing is when people come on and say helpful things....

So when faced with this situation... treat people with respect and be humble and they will get more help than by being a dick!....

Do you think BOTW would make the money they do doing what they love by being a dick... When faced with a similar situation i think the way BOTW pro staff would handle it would be by not being a dick....

So if in same situation ask yourself WWBOTWPSD.....

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by decker

You shoot that gong freehand?

12" seems to be about what the center area of a 500 meter ram is, I can't remember exactly , (been years since i shot silly wet) but 2.5MOA diameter in the center of the targets sounds familar .
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That is awesome....I'm jealous.

Do you see a lot of hunters shooting at those ranges Cat or is it more the serious bench guys?

I have seen a lot of shooters shootng there, not so much at the longer ranges, but lots at 500.
the problem is of course, is that it is a static range, and almost no one except for dedicated silhouette shooters or hunters that practice offhand on a regular basis, shoot any style but off the bench.
I know a few guys who have never taken an offhand shot with their hunting rifles, and do not use a bipod either at the range.

They think , however, that if their rifles are zeroed off the bench they are good to go.
Bench shootng is just that IMO, bench shooting, and offhand or bi[pod shooting is far closer to shooting in a real hunting condition tha shooting off the bench.
As was already mentioned, it is great for initial zeroing and workig up loads, etc, but for hunting practise, not so much!

Cat

[Mekanik]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I have seen a lot od shooters shootng there, not so much at the longer ranges, but lots at 500.
the problem is of course, is that it is a static range, and almost no one except for dedicated silhouette shooters or hunters that practice offhand on a regular basis, shoot any style but off the bench.
I know a few guys who have never taken an offhand shot with their hunting rifles, and do not use a bipod either.

They think , however, that if their rifles are zeroed off the bench they are good to go.
Cat

I've started shooting off hand, open sights. There's no bench in the bush but not to those ranges, not yet. getting comfy at 100 though.

[decker]

Originally Posted by lattery1

Not often, just give it a whirl every once in a while. Like I said I missed 4 times before hitting it offhand and I know exactly where to hold from shooting off the bench.

Your a better shot than I am. nice

=catnthehat;1532010 They think , however, that if their rifles are zeroed off the bench they are good to go.
Cat

Ya, that is a real issue for sure. It is hard to find a place to practice long-range shooting in real world conditions but unless you do it, no matter how much you shoot off the bench, you really aren't going to fully understand it. Still, soulds like you guys have a very enviable range.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by decker

Your a better shot than I am. nice

I used to be a fair shooter offhand and prone, but injuries really put me on the side lines. now that I can shoot decently again without discomfort, I aplan on getting after the hi-power in a big way, again!
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya, that is a real issue for sure. It is hard to find a place to practice long-range shooting in real world conditions but unless you do it, no matter how much you shoot off the bench, you really aren't going to fully understand it. Still, soulds like you guys have a very eviable range.

We are super proud of it, yup!
for years i had to practise my long range shooting at the "outpost Of The Empire" range, but now I can do it at the same time I got to shoot trap and skeet, etc.
the Outpost is still a tremendous outing however!


Cat

Originally Posted by catnthehat

We are super proud of it, yup!
for years i had to practise my long range shooting at the "outpost Of The Empire" range, but now I can do it at the same time I got to shoot trap and skeet, etc.
the Outpost is still a tremendous outing however!

Cat

Yes, there is something to be said for shooting at targets that aren't at specified distances and that aren't all the same direction to the wind. It's amazing what you learn.

[catnthehat]

The wind there is CRAZY!!
It sometimes changes about four times drasticly because oif the high bank on the far side, the river valey funnel effect, and the lower bank on my side.
Plus, as the targets get closer to us, they change angle as well as elevation!!

it really teaches you how to read a condition.
Cat

[elkhunter11]

It sometimes changes about four times drasticly because oif the high bank on the far side, the river valey funnel effect, and the lower bank on my side.

Exactly my point. On flat barren terrain, the wind is much easier to read, but on uneven ground, or with partial broken cover, it can be quite deceiving.

We have a great range, but the simple fact is that most of the not so serious shooters, do the vast majority of their shooting at 100 yards, with a bit of 200 yard shooting thrown in by some. To make things more interesting, several of us like to set clay targets out on the berms, and shoot them. That way, the targets vary in position, and the yardage is different than the target stands in front of them. As well, it is usually obvious if the target breaks, and the dust or thrown dirt indicates misses, so you don't need to walk all the way downrange to see where you are hitting.

[nekred]

BOTW is being blamed unfairly here....

Nothing to do with BOTW at all.. also if you look at Huskemaw website and their scope instructions it mentions practicing lots, not just on the range but in the filed under hunting conditions as well.

Dragging their name through the mud I think is uncalled for because of a third hand hand impression of another persons statements and impressions on equipment..

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by nekred

BOTW is being blamed unfairly here....

Nothing to do with BOTW at all.. also if you look at Huskemaw website and their scope instructions it mentions practicing lots, not just on the range but in the filed under hunting conditions as well.

Dragging their name through the mud I think is uncalled for because of a third hand hand impression of another persons statements and impressions on equipment..

Basically speaking, you are about as on the moeny as a person can get withg that comment!
Just because a person owns a muscle car does not mean he will rat drag race with it, but some will with no previous experience!
Cat

[scrapper]

Boys, everyone has a comfort level and each is different. If some guy wants to buy a new Cooper and a long range scope and attempt 800 yard shots...... while we all have an opinion he will do what ever he wants. It may be unethical it's not illegal. Frankly if he wants to spend that kind of money he is probably going to practice with it enough to determine if a 500+ yard shot is ethical for him. I am not about to question his hunting ethics just because he is a rookie that owns long range gear.

[elkhunter11]

BOTW is being blamed unfairly here....

Nothing to do with BOTW at all.. also if you look at Huskemaw website and their scope instructions it mentions practicing lots, not just on the range but in the filed under hunting conditions as well.

Dragging their name through the mud I think is uncalled for because of a third hand hand impression of another persons statements and impressions on equipment..

It's not a third hand impression of another person's statements,the person was speaking directly to me, making it a first hand impression of the person's statements. BOTW, and Huskemaw were posted, because that person specifically mentioned both as he bragged to us about what he was going to be able to do with his new scope. Sure both BOTW and Huskemaw realize that practise is required to use the equipment to it's potential, but many people buying their products, are not comprehending this. I have watched the BOTW show several times, and I have yet to see a disclaimer stressing just how important it is to practise with the equipment. In fact, the show seems to stress just how easy it is to make the long shots with the equipment used on the show. I have also never seen a miss or a wounded animal shown on BOTW, so the show does give the impression that there aren't any misses or wounded animals, as a result of the long range shooting portrayed on the show.

[aulrich]

I do agree that bench shooting and field shooting are two different things but I do see good (or at least passible by BR shooters standards) bench shooting as the basis for good field shooting

I have always though if you can't to it from the bench you won't be able to do it in the field.

You take poor sight picture, breathing and trigger control, then multiply that by the vageries of field shooting and you have those guys that put up a pie plate and think if they hit it more than half the time at 100 yards and they are good to go.

And it's not like we have not seen lots of those guy for years now.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It's not a third hand impression of another person's statements,the person was speaking directly to me, making it a first hand impression of the person's statements. BOTW, and Huskemaw were posted, because that person specifically mentioned both as he bragged to us about what he was going to be able to do with his new scope. Sure both BOTW and Huskemaw realize that practise is required to use the equipment to it's potential, but many people buying their products, are not comprehending this. I have watched the BOTW show several times, and I have yet to see a disclaimer stressing just how important it is to practise with the equipment. In fact, the show seems to stress just how easy it is to make the long shots with the equipment used on the show. I have also never seen a miss or a wounded animal shown on BOTW, so the show does give the impression that there aren't any misses or wounded animals, as a result of the long range shooting portrayed on the show.

You should have spent a little time talking to John Porter at Huntfest.....perhaps you would have learned a bit more about their philosophy. He's a very interesting and skilled guy with some very practical thoughts on long range shooting. I know I've seen them comment several times about practice on their show. I guess we just saw different episodes.