Another case of Too Much Best Of The West

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by aulrich

I do agree that bench shooting and field shooting are two different things but I do see good (or at least passible by BR shooters standards) bench shooting as the basis for good field shooting

I have always though if you can't to it from the bench you won't be able to do it in the field.

You take poor sight picture, breathing and trigger control, then multiply that by the vageries of field shooting and you have those guys that put up a pie plate and think if they hit it more than half the time at 100 yards and they are good to go.

And it's not like we have not seen lots of those guy for years now.

I do not feel that a bench rest is mandatory to learn the proper steps that make up a shot sequence, in fact many coaches never teach with the aid of one.
I shot smallbore sporting and match rifle competition for many years before shooting off a bench rest, and did not use one for learning how to shoot center fire until years afterwards, and knew of no one that did who shot full bore.
Cat

[elkhunter11]

You should have spent a little time talking to John Porter at Huntfest.....perhaps you would have learned a bit more about their philosophy. He's a very interesting and skilled guy with some very practical thoughts on long range shooting.

I have no doubts about his skills or his philosophy, and by the way, I was at the Corlanes booth, at Huntfest, listening to some of what he had to say. I also stopped by the BOTW store in Cody last summer while on vacation, and spoke to someone else there. But as skilled as John Porter is, his skills are of little value to the person that watches a few episodes of the show, then runs out and purchases a Huskemaw scope, expecting that the scope will suddenly provide them with the ability to as the person told me at the range "shoot pop cans at 700 yards". Some people are just very naive, and either they don't understand the skills required, or just as likely, they just want to believe that long distance shooting is really that easy, if they just buy the right equipment..

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have no doubts about his skills or his philosophy, and by the way, I was at the Corlanes booth, at Huntfest, listening to some of what he had to say. I also stopped by the BOTW store in Cody last summer while on vacation, and spoke to someone else there. But as skilled as John Porter is, his skills are of little value to the person that watches a few episodes of the show, then runs out and purchases a Huskemaw scope, expecting that the scope will suddenly provide them with the ability to as the person told me at the range "shoot pop cans at 700 yards". Some people are just very naive, and either they don't understand the skills required, or just as likely, they just want to believe that long distance shooting is really that easy, if they just buy the right equipment..

I guess the same could be said about those that watch NASCAR, UFC, Miss America or America's Got Talent. At the end of the day, there are going to be a small percentage of people that abuse technology and the vast majority are going to understand the resposibility that comes with it. We can't keep catering to the lowest common denominator or blame the actions of a few on a television series that promotes responsible long-range shooting. Okay, I guess some people can blame them but to me that seems overly naive. It's kinda like blaming the Batman movies for the tragedy in Aurora.

[nekred]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It's not a third hand impression of another person's statements,the person was speaking directly to me, making it a first hand impression of the person's statements. BOTW, and Huskemaw were posted, because that person specifically mentioned both as he bragged to us about what he was going to be able to do with his new scope. Sure both BOTW and Huskemaw realize that practise is required to use the equipment to it's potential, but many people buying their products, are not comprehending this. I have watched the BOTW show several times, and I have yet to see a disclaimer stressing just how important it is to practise with the equipment. In fact, the show seems to stress just how easy it is to make the long shots with the equipment used on the show. I have also never seen a miss or a wounded animal shown on BOTW, so the show does give the impression that there aren't any misses or wounded animals, as a result of the long range shooting portrayed on the show.

How is it BOTW and Huskemaw's fault which portion of the show a person listens to. Go read the huskemaw website and see how much they stress about practice. Watch the BOTW videos and see how much they stress practice.
Of course you are going to get what you hear from the show...and we all tend to hear what is inline with our pre-conceived assumptions....

Good equipment and good instructiuon sure reduces the learning curve because it skips the practice of doing it wrong.

The Fool learns from his own mistakes... The Wise applies the teaching of others...and is much quicker...and thus requires less practice to acheive the same level of skill, and they actually have more knowlege about doing it right... We know edison found a way to make a light bulb work... Edison found 999 other ways that did not work first... Edison has much more knowlege than me but in the end my knowledge of using tungsten produces succesful results...

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I guess the same could be said about those that watch NASCAR, UFC, Miss America or America's Got Talent. .

At least on Americas got talent they show everything, idiots fools and everything else, nascar and indy show all the crashes and stupid moves some drivers make, Miss america shows bad singing, talent, terrible speeches etc etc. BOTW well.... they never miss

[elkhunter11]

At least on Americas got talent they show everything, idiots fools and everything else, nascar and indy show all the crashes and stupid moves some drivers make, Miss america shows bad singing, talent, terrible speeches etc etc. BOTW well.... they never miss

+1

As for the comparison to the UFC, they have to fight with just their skills, no tools or equipment allowed to provide an advantage, totally unlike BOTW. The WWE would make a much better comparison to BOTW.

[Speckle55]

Elkhunter11.. are you a Long Ranger Shooter?
what is your longest shot on paper or gong?
do you do any F-class shooting if so what range in yardage?
have you done any competition shooting?
do you have any awards or certifications in shooting?

would you shoot out here in Hinton area at 7000ft and 250 yards in a 90 mile per hour wind cross wind at a Bull Elk or Ram?

David

[gopher]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Elkhunter11.. are you a Long Ranger Shooter?
what is your longest shot on paper or gong?
do you do any F-class shooting if so what range in yardage?
have you done any competition shooting?
do you have any awards or certifications in shooting?

would you shoot out here in Hinton area at 7000ft and 250 yards in a 90 mile per hour wind cross wind at a Bull Elk or Ram?

David

If he used his STW that would only be a 27(in) wind drift I bet he could find someone to hold his hat too.

[New Hunter Okotoks]

When I watch BOTW, I wonder how many gut shot and other wounded animals died days later in the field and were left on the cutting room floor. If they have wounded an animal, I think that they should show an episode on what the consequences are of a failed long range shot. That 2 days of hunting are wasted after the blood trail dries up. Explain that the animal will die a crappy death and be eaten by coyotes instead of the shooter.

Although they do stress that practice is important, they also show how "easy" it is do with the right equipment. Although I know my limitations, it sure seems like that all that is needed is the right equipment, some shootings sticks and a gentle squeeze after watching BOTW.

I might have some fancy golf clubs and be able to hit a golf ball 350 yards but I'm not on the PGA tour. The reality is that I'm lucky to break 100. I might have a 300 WSM and a Zeiss Scope, but I know that I can hit a golf ball farther than I can kill an animal.

If you would not be willing to bet a full paycheque that you will kill the animal you're shooting at; don't take the shot.

[gopher]

Most guys are such hypocrites hi and mighty not taking shots at big game animals stick that same guy in a goose pit and it’s spray and pray all day long.

[elkhunter11]

Elkhunter11.. are you a Long Ranger Shooter?
what is your longest shot on paper or gong?
do you do any F-class shooting if so what range in yardage?
have you done any competition shooting?
do you have any awards or certifications in shooting?

I am not a competitive long range shooter. I practice regularly to 500 meters on our local range, and my longest confirmed shot on a big game animal was 480 yards, with several more at 400+ yards. I have turned down longer shots, because I was not as confident as I needed to be that I could make the shot, to attempt it. I have too much respect for the game that I hunt to take iffy shots, and risk wounding an animal.

would you shoot out here in Hinton area at 7000ft and 250 yards in a 90 mile per hour wind cross wind at a Bull Elk or Ram?

I would truly enjoy watching you try and shoot in a 90mph crosswind. It would be entertaining just watching you trying to hold the gun without being blown away.

[elkhunter11]

are you a Long Ranger Shooter?
what is your longest shot on paper or gong?
do you do any F-class shooting if so what range in yardage?
have you done any competition shooting?
do you have any awards or certifications in shooting?

Since I know that there are some competitive shooters on the forum, I will ask this:

How many Huskemaw scopes do you see on the line at a serious competition?

In any case, this entire thread is not about competitive long range shooters, since they have the skills to make long range shots with whatever equipment that they choose to use.

This thread is about inexperienced shooters, watching television programs, then getting the idea that a new scope is going to magically turn them into a competent long range shooter. I am at the local range many days each year, and I have sen more and more people with that idea, and most of them don't do well even at 500 yards.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am not a competitive long range shooter. I practice regularly to 500 meters on our local range, and my longest confirmed shot on a big game animal was 480 yards, with several more at 400+ yards. I have turned down longer shots, because I was not as confident as I needed to be that I could make the shot, to attempt it. I have too much respect for the game that I hunt to take iffy shots, and risk wounding an animal.



I would truly enjoy watching you try and shoot in a 90mph crosswind. It would be entertaining just watching you trying to hold the gun without being blown away.

Hey Elkhunter11 i was just wondering what your experince is and was .. sound like you are a thinking shooter which is good .. and if you don,t feel like the shot is there then good for you not shooting.. its just that for you personally your limit is 500 yards and your posts show that.. each shooter will have there own limits and we do not know what they are ..

personal i have tracked animals that i have wounded at 100 yards and others .. but then again that is part of hunting.. i have found later and saw that nothing was wasted as the circle of life took care of that .. while i don,t like those cases i am real about hunting and shooting .. so when you guys say do they miss yes most likely they do.. and you and we know that but when they take that shot their % is in their favor but nothing and i mean nothing is guaranteed even at 50 yds..

so while you will see some shooters that will say that they want to kill at 700 yards once they practice abit they will know that in a 40 mile wind maybe they should wait another day..

why don't you teach them abit out to 500 yards so they are a better shooters

you asked about ranges of guns and i posted the ratings of some to give others a example of the effective range .. in the end teaching all..

we do understand what you are saying.. but this is 2012 and 20 years from now this will be old school as technology changes

Would i try that Bull Elk/Ram ... nope i have given up and gone home !!

David

[nekred]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

In any case, this entire thread is not about competitive long range shooters, since they have the skills to make long range shots with whatever equipment that they choose to use.

This thread is about inexperienced shooters, watching television programs, then getting the idea that a new scope is going to magically turn them into a competent long range shooter. I am at the local range many days each year, and I have sen more and more people with that idea, and most of them don't do well even at 500 yards.

Yes that is a better description without dragging people's and company's names into it.

What I am saying is that demeaning this person in an internet forum is also not cool. At least the guy is on the range getting stuff figured out.

Many people in all sports think a shiny new piece of gear is going to help them improve... I see it in archery all the time, guys with a bag full of releases.

[elkhunter11]

Yes that is a better description without dragging people's and company's names into it.

What I am saying is that demeaning this person in an internet forum is also not cool. At least the guy is on the range getting stuff figured out.

As I posted previously, I posted specific company names, because the individual specifically used those names himself. I did not mention the person's name, or even describe him in any way. As to getting things figured out, the shooting abilities, or lack thereof that he displayed, indicate to me, that he has a lot to figure out. However, that was not the real issue, the issue was his attitude. He made it very clear that if he found himself within 700 yards of a big game animal that he had a tag for, he was going to attempt a shot, because his new Huskemaw scope was going to make a 700 yard shot easy for him. When asked if he was concerned about wounding an animal at long range, his reply was " if I shoot, I have a chance,if I don't shoot, I have no chance, and if I miss, I am sure that I will get another chance on another animal".

each shooter will have there own limits and we do not know what they are ..

In many cases, watching a person shooting at the local range gives a pretty good idea of a person's lack of ability. If you can't hit a pie plate at 400 yards off of a benchrest, I don't like your chances of making a 700 shot under field conditions.

personal i have tracked animals that i have wounded at 100 yards and others .. but then again that is part of hunting.. i have found later and saw that nothing was wasted as the circle of life took care of that .. while i don,t like those cases i am real about hunting and shooting .. so when you guys say do they miss yes most likely they do.. and you and we know that but when they take that shot their % is in their favor but nothing and i mean nothing is guaranteed even at 50 yds..

I don't go by the " nothing is wasted" idea. My personal feeling, is that I respect the game that I hunt, so I feel obligated to provide a quick clean kill. I am not going to justify losing an animal, and having it suffer needlessly, with the excuse that the wild carnivores need to eat to.

[Speckle55]

This video show's the change in equipment enjoy and range

David
http://www.viralviralvideos.com/2011...000-yard-shot/
http://www.riflebarrels.com/winners/1000yards.htm

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

When asked if he was concerned about wounding an animal at long range, his reply was " if I shoot, I have a chance,if I don't shoot, I have no chance, and if I miss, I am sure that I will get another chance on another animal".

.

And you don't think he'd have the same attitude with a 4x Weaver mounted on his rifle.

I saw a guy driving kind of reckless yesterday....darned Dukes of Hazzard. He'd have never driven that way without watching that show

[elkhunter11]

And you don't think he'd have the same attitude with a 4x Weaver mounted on his rifle.

Given that he specifically told me that he purchased the Huskemaw, because he didn't feel confident enough to shoot at an animal past 200 yards with his present scope, I would answer no to that question. I actually posted that in my original post.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Given that he specifically told me that he purchased the Huskemaw, because he didn't feel confident enough to shoot at an animal past 200 yards with his present scope, I would answer no to that question.

Wasn't there a discussion about being naive earlier?

[elkhunter11]

Wasn't there a discussion about being naive earlier?

Something along the lines of comparing using a high tech scope to improve your capabilities, to a UFC fighter that has only his skills and his body might qualify!

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Something along the lines of comparing using a high tech scope to improve your capabilities, to a UFC fighter that has only his skills and his body might qualify!

Yup, that was the one....good to see your naivety doesn't only apply to scopes....lol There's been no technological advancements that have helped fighters train harder or become stronger.....lol Good one. Guess all that suppliment and equipment advertising in the UFC is just aimed at other professional fighters and not averge Joes that think it will make them tougher and stronger....lol

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

As I posted previously, I posted specific company names, because the individual specifically used those names himself. I did not mention the person's name, or even describe him in any way. As to getting things figured out, the shooting abilities, or lack thereof that he displayed, indicate to me, that he has a lot to figure out. However, that was not the real issue, the issue was his attitude. He made it very clear that if he found himself within 700 yards of a big game animal that he had a tag for, he was going to attempt a shot, because his new Huskemaw scope was going to make a 700 yard shot easy for him. When asked if he was concerned about wounding an animal at long range, his reply was " if I shoot, I have a chance,if I don't shoot, I have no chance, and if I miss, I am sure that I will get another chance on another animal".



In many cases, watching a person shooting at the local range gives a pretty good idea of a person's lack of ability. If you can't hit a pie plate at 400 yards off of a benchrest, I don't like your chances of making a 700 shot under field conditions.



I don't go by the " nothing is wasted" idea. My personal feeling, is that I respect the game that I hunt, so I feel obligated to provide a quick clean kill. I am not going to justify losing an animal, and having it suffer needlessly, with the excuse that the wild carnivores need to eat to.

hmmm you hunt gophers right .. wow you just stuck your foot in your mouth i did some reading on your posts..

be a teacher Elkhunter11 in shooting at your club longer ranges

David

[elkhunter11]

Yup, that was the one....good to see your naivety doesn't only apply to scopes....lol There's been no technological advancements that have helped fighters train harder or become stronger.....

Totally different situation. High tech training works great to supplement both shooting and UFC fighting, but in the case of the high tech scope, some people are using technology in an attempt to replace the training and experience. With UFC fighters, they may train differently, but they won't be successful if they attempt to use technical equipment to replace their training and experience. In fact, most supplements allow the UFC fighter to train harder and longer. When a fighter gets into the ring,he has only his skills and experience to depend on.

[elkhunter11]

hmmm you hunt gophers right .. wow you just stuck your foot in your mouth i did some reading on your posts..

Since when are gophers considered "game animals"?

As far as that goes, would you consider it more humane to poison them?

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Totally different situation. High tech training works great to supplement both shooting and UFC fighting, but in the case of the high tech scope, some people are using technology in an attempt to replace the training and experience. With UFC fighters, they may train differently, but they won't be successful if they attempt to use technical equipment in place of their training and experience. In fact, most supplements allow the UFC fighter to train harder and longer. When a fighter gets into the ring,he has only his skills and experience to depend on.

LOL...sounds like the exactly the same thing to me. I suspect John Porter trains a bit too.

There are lots of television programs, UFC included that market products that lead some to believe they can emmulate the participants just by purchasing technology. Most people are smart enough to know that technology is only part of the equation but some believe it. That was the naive part I was referencing in both cases. Thanks for making my point.

[elkhunter11]

LOL...sounds like the exactly the same thing to me. I suspect John Porter trains a bit too.

Exactly my point, he has developed and maintained his skills through training and practise. Do you think that a new shooter would immediately match Porter's abilities if he was given Porter's equipment?


How much training and practise do you think that it would take before you would bet on the new shooter in a shooting contest against Porter?

[aulrich]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I do not feel that a bench rest is mandatory to learn the proper steps that make up a shot sequence, in fact many coaches never teach with the aid of one.
I shot smallbore sporting and match rifle competition for many years before shooting off a bench rest, and did not use one for learning how to shoot center fire until years afterwards, and knew of no one that did who shot full bore.
Cat

I see your point, so i'll modify to "at a bench to" to "at the target range"

But I have to ask Cat, were tables invented when you were young ?

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly my point, he has developed and maintained his skills through training and practise. Do you think that a new shooter would immediately match Porter's abilities if he was given Porter's equipment?


How much training and practise do you think that it would take before you would bet on the new shooter in a shooting contest against Porter?

No I don't think that nor have I ever indicated anything like that. Not sure what your point is really.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by aulrich

I see your point, so i'll modify to "at a bench to" to "at the target range"

But I have to ask Cat, were tables invented when you were young ?

Oh yeah, hatin' on the old guys now , are we- watch it or I'll smack ya with my cane!!
Cat

[elkhunter11]

No I don't think that nor have I ever indicated anything like that. Not sure what your point is really.

My point is, that you brought John Porter into this thread, and in his case, experience and training is much,much more of a factor than the scope that he chooses to use will ever be. Porter didn't just run out, buy a Huskemaw scope, and become a great shooter as a result. He was already an accomplished shooter before BOTW was being broadcast, and likely before Huskemaw scopes ever existed.

Something else that might be worth considering would be just who decides what the scope turrets should be adjusted to for the guest shooters on BOTW. Does each shooter read the wind, and the yardage, and then decide for themselves what adjustments to make for their shot on that once of a lifetime animal, or do they rely on John Porter , or some other expert to read the conditions, and then decide on the turret adjustments? With a decent rest, and someone else telling you the correct adjustments to dial into the scope, it's not all that big of a deal to shoot longer ranges, it takes more skill to read the conditions and then arrive at the correct turret adjustments.

Unfortunately the average consumer that purchases the Huskemaw scope, does not have the expert shooter from BOTW with him, to read the conditions, and determine the correct turret adjustments for each shot opportunity that he may encounter in the field.