Bullet stability vs flight time

[260 Rem]

Regardless of potential turbulance, we know that the bullets of top notch shooters go into some pretty impressive groups. Regardless of all the "other" factors, bullet spin is the essential ingredient in creating stability. To refocus on the issue raised in the OP - which was the idea that group size can improve between 100 - 600 yds because bullets "go to sleep" -- IMO, the argument that a bullet can steer back towards the center (epicyclic swerve calculation of approx 0.3" excluded)... just doesn't make sense no matter how many testimonials I hear. I am still waiting from someone who believes in sleepy bullets to explain why all bullets of the same caliber/profile/weight shot out of the same twist barrel at the same elevation above sea level and at the same velocity... would steer back on course the further it gets down range... Isn't the bottom line that a bullet that is 1MOA off course at 100yds will be 2" off at 200 yds and 3" off at 300 yds...and so on...unless the wind moves it? Of course, everybody has shot better groups at 300yds than they have at 100yds, but those differences would be better expalined by sleepy shooters than sleepy bullets

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Regardless of potential turbulance, we know that the bullets of top notch shooters go into some pretty impressive groups. Regardless of all the "other" factors, bullet spin is the essential ingredient in creating stability. To refocus on the issue raised in the OP - which was the idea that group size can improve between 100 - 600 yds because bullets "go to sleep" -- IMO, the argument that a bullet can steer back towards the center (epicyclic swerve calculation of approx 0.3" excluded)... just doesn't make sense no matter how many testimonials I hear. I am still waiting from someone who believes in sleepy bullets to explain why all bullets of the same caliber/profile/weight shot out of the same twist barrel at the same elevation above sea level and at the same velocity... would steer back on course the further it gets down range... Isn't the bottom line that a bullet that is 1MOA off course at 100yds will be 2" off at 200 yds and 3" off at 300 yds...and so on...unless the wind moves it? Of course, everybody has shot better groups at 300yds than they have at 100yds, but those differences would be better expalined by sleepy shooters than sleepy bullets

Yup!

Bobby B.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

If a bullet groups 1MOA AT 100yds it will produce a group of just over 5" at 500yds unless the wind blows 'em all back towards the center. Typically, only very gifted shooters with good eqpt can maintain the same accuracy at distance as they get at 100yds. One thing you can count on, is that once a bullet sets out on its path..it does not "steer" back on course! It does not "go to sleep" or get more stable. If you are getting consistent 1/4MOA groups over 500yds, you are IMO a gifted shooter.

One MOA at 100 is 1" or close to it. Quarter MOA at 500 yds 1.20". The group is still larger at 500 yds. Further down OP mentions 5-shot group at 100 versus a 3-shot at 500. This happens, been there, done that. Never had groups shrink as the distance increased but shot lots of disappointing 100 yd groups that did not triple in group size at 300 yds. I do a bit of long range shooting and usually don't bother shooting boat tail bullets at 100 yds anymore. 1/4 MOA at 500 yds ain't that tough if conditions are good.

[260 Rem]

1/4 MOA not tough at 500yds ... WOW!!! Just reading an article by Sam Hall about one of his "heavy 6MM Dashers. (Sam is described in the 6MMBR introduction to his article as being "one of the greatest middle-distance class benchrest shooters on the planet"). When Hall was shooting his 6.5 X 284 he only shot one group under 2" at 600 yds in a whole year. When he changed to the 6 Dasher, he was able to agg under 2". He came second in Piedmont with a 1.76" group and the World Record was set with a 1.46" agg group score. Hall uses a couple of Dashers ...one weighs 28lbs and the other 60lbs.
Dale, it appears your 1/4 MOA groups at 500yds are in World Record territory..even when competeing against those big heavy custom jobs. Great shooting --- Are you going to be competing in the near future? What rifle and bullets are you using? I'm looking at building a 6 Dasher, but my mind could be changed by whatever you are shooting as it seems superbly accurate.

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

1/4 MOA not tough at 500yds ... WOW!!! Just reading an article by Sam Hall about one of his "heavy 6MM Dashers. (Sam is described in the 6MMBR introduction to his article as being "one of the greatest middle-distance class benchrest shooters on the planet"). When Hall was shooting his 6.5 X 284 he only shot one group under 2" at 600 yds in a whole year. When he changed to the 6 Dasher, he was able to agg under 2". He came second in Piedmont with a 1.76" group and the World Record was set with a 1.46" agg group score. Hall uses a couple of Dashers ...one weighs 28lbs and the other 60lbs.
Dale, it appears your 1/4 MOA groups at 500yds are in World Record territory..even when competeing against those big heavy custom jobs. Great shooting --- Are you going to be competing in the near future? What rifle and bullets are you using? I'm looking at building a 6 Dasher, but my mind could be changed by whatever you are shooting as it seems superbly accurate.

Maybe that's all true about Sam. But, Sam is merely a benchrest shooter while Dale is an internet shooter. And that makes all the difference!

Bobby B.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

1/4 MOA not tough at 500yds ... WOW!!! Just reading an article by Sam Hall about one of his "heavy 6MM Dashers. (Sam is described in the 6MMBR introduction to his article as being "one of the greatest middle-distance class benchrest shooters on the planet"). When Hall was shooting his 6.5 X 284 he only shot one group under 2" at 600 yds in a whole year. When he changed to the 6 Dasher, he was able to agg under 2". He came second in Piedmont with a 1.76" group and the World Record was set with a 1.46" agg group score. Hall uses a couple of Dashers ...one weighs 28lbs and the other 60lbs.
Dale, it appears your 1/4 MOA groups at 500yds are in World Record territory..even when competeing against those big heavy custom jobs. Great shooting --- Are you going to be competing in the near future? What rifle and bullets are you using? I'm looking at building a 6 Dasher, but my mind could be changed by whatever you are shooting as it seems superbly accurate.

I am just assuming here, but likely the difference in recoil of the two cartridges and the smaller caliber bullet were contributing factors to Mr. hall's fantastic performances - which is what the small cased 6mm's are all about!
I have heard far more about fantastic shootign at 500 and 1,000 yards by people than I have ever sen in a match, for sure, but there are some people out there that can do it, very few however.

I remember a time when I posted on one of the long range forums a 4 shot group at 1,000 that was crazy small ( under 6")and and was told I should be competing as it was a world record group.
I posted back that it was in fact NOT a World record group, because it was not sot at a snactioned range, it was missing a shot, and that at Williamsport, it would be missing 6 shots!
Cat

[duceman]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

Maybe that's all true about Sam. But, Sam is merely a benchrest shooter while Dale is an internet shooter. And that makes all the difference!

Bobby B.

so will you be shooting against dale at the mile shoot this weekend bobby?

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by duceman

so will you be shooting against dale at the mile shoot this weekend bobby?

i have a better idea.how about bobby b and 260 bring their best and dale will bring his best and meet at a pre determined range and we,ll shoot for cash.i personally am bringing alot of cash to wager on dale.should be an easy way to double up

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

i have a better idea.how about bobby b and 260 bring their best and dale will bring his best and meet at a pre determined range and we,ll shoot for cash.i personally am bringing alot of cash to wager on dale.should be an easy way to double up

Hey - Don't include me in this pis'n contest...I've never claimed to be a be a competative shooter. But really, lapua ... anyone who claims that shooting better groups than a bonafide world class shooter is easy ... shouldn't be any more surprised with a reality check any more than the guy who stands up to claim he's the toughest guy in the bar

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by duceman

so will you be shooting against dale at the mile shoot this weekend bobby?

Absolutely! Glad you're so accommodating. Bring it to where I'll be this weekend and I'll shoot against him. Make sure he brings a fishing rod as well.

Bobby B.

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

i have a better idea.how about bobby b and 260 bring their best and dale will bring his best and meet at a pre determined range and we,ll shoot for cash.i personally am bringing alot of cash to wager on dale.should be an easy way to double up

If you reread what 260 wrote, you should be able to realize that 260 was comparing Dale's claim to Sam Hall's shooting ability. As was I.

However, since you are so eager to put you money down and make this personal, here's a chance for you. I will bet whatever amount you can come up with, that my LSAT will be higher than yours? How's that? You want to test your brain power against mine? Bring it.

Bobby B.

[260 Rem]

lapua - I shoot at SPFGA pretty much every morning, and would be honored if you would come to give me a lesson. I have this 30BR that has agg'd 0.3" c-to-c for more than 100 five shot groups at 100M and would like to find out what it really can do...so maybe you or Dale could take the wheel? Let me know a convenient time, and I will get authorization for you to shoot as we are capped out ...don't worry, I can swing it.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

lapua - I shoot at SPFGA pretty much every morning, and would be honored if you would come to give me a lesson. I have this 30BR that has agg'd 0.3" c-to-c for more than 100 five shot groups at 100M and would like to find out what it really can do...so maybe you or Dale could take the wheel? Let me know a convenient time, and I will get authorization for you to shoot as we are capped out ...don't worry, I can swing it.

You have agg'd 0.3" for over 100 five shot groups and never thought, "Hmm, wonder what this sucker will do at 300, 400, and even 500 yds". Taste the wine. Touch the lady. You want a day of complete redneck nirvana go to some of these one mile shoots. I would consider it an honor to shoot your rifle and even take some pointers, if I could also try some longer shots. I would even bring a couple of long range bench guns and welcome you to try them.
Cheers

[260 Rem]

Dale - SPFGA is limited to 300M and I live 15 minutes away, and am on the gray side of 65. I do shoot at 300M, but not much as it takes us old guys time to get back and forth. (I am taking a bike down to leave there tomorrow I change barrels pretty frequently so I am looking mostly to test the gun .. as I have never worked with doping wind...
I am expecting two new chamber jobs later this week, one more 30BR on a Barnard and a 6.5 X 47 on a Stiller. I have a 308 (13:1) Krieger and a 6MM (8:1) en route from Peter Dobson which I will chamber to 6 Dasher. So many toys...so little time. I'd love to try your LR bench guns, but like I say..we are limited to 300M. Buddy was playing with his Dasher today and got some
1/4" 5 shot groups at 200M this morning with a bench gun.

[urcayuse]

Whoa! This thread just got a lot more interesting! Where do they hold a one mile shoot?

[DaleJ]

Rem260, I am on the gray side of 55 years. I like your choice of rifles. I have a 6.5X47L that will be tested at one mile this weekend. Also an RPA Quadlock in 6.5-284 and an old S&L M62 in 6.5X55 that will do the trick if I can get enough MOA in the scope base. I am a proud member of PCFGA gun range and use a quad to check targets at 500 meters. Keep them in the group!
DaleJ

[Bobby B.]

Well, I'm not a benchrest shooter, and have never claimed to be one. But, there's a few folks on this thread who seem to think nothing of equaling or besting exceptional shooting feats. Dale claims 1/4 moa out to 500 or so yards is pretty common place if the conditions are right. Both 260 and I say bull****. A 1 1/4" five shot group at 500 yards is damn special.

Along comes Duceman and 6.5 lapua who both feel a personal need to challenge both 260 and myself to shoot against their buddy Dale. Both are willing to place a wager on the table. Both 260 and I make it clear that we're not suggesting we can shoot better than Dale but hold to our previous conviction that Dale's claim of shooting ability appears to surpass the shooting skills of Sam Hill, something i and 260 view as rather dubious.

Bobby B. responds to Duceman and lapua challenge of making this personal and suggests a contest of brain power, something obviously quite personal. Bobby B. is willing to place as much $$ on the line as either of these dudes wish to bet. So far, no takers.

Bobby B.

[Lefty-Canuck]

This is one I really enjoy being on the sidelines.....but I have to ask who has the biggest Dad?

LC

[Bobby B.]

Further to the point. I'm prepared to contact Mr. Hill and have him meet Dale in a shoot off. Of course this would have to be agreed upon by both Dale and Mr. Hill. I suggest Duceman and lapua and I split the costs of bringing these two shooters together. The duceman and lapua together pay for 1/2 and I will cover the other half. All expenses to be held in trust by a lawyer agreed upon by both sides.The losing team compensates the winning team for their expenses plus a little something extra. Bring it.

Bobby B.

[silver]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

I agree that the gases are present at the base of the bullet, and present along the shank and ogive of the bullet. I also agree these gases will react upon the bullet. However, if the gases are relatively uniform in their velocity and composition as they travel alongside the bullet, their effect must be minimal and correlated to the uniformity of the bullet itself. Generally speaking, when uniform pressure is exerted, the effect is to stabilize not disrupt. In addition, the spin of the bullet must create its own insulating layer of turbulence around the bullet providing resistance to the gases as they pass the bullet. Even if the gases still generate a measurable degree of instability to the bullet, why would such a force produce a more disruptive effect on a boattail design as compared to a flatbase?

Another unknown is how the gases place themselves in front of the bullet?

Bobby B.

I have a couple of thoughts here, hope you will bear with me. General Julian Hatcher in Hatchers Notebook mentions a similar situation, proportionally smaller groups at a distance. Since this happens with boat tail bullets, could it be a problem with muzzle damage?

[catnthehat]

Here is the website for the Williamsport original 1,000 yard club.
http://www.pa1000yard.com/
Note that the score and groups are ten shots!!
There are some pretty nice ten shot groups there, considering that they often cannot see their shots during the heat, and shoot at clays on the berm for zeroing.

Most notable for me is a very long time member their who had a ten target aggregate one year that was averaging UNDER 8" - that is ten ten shot groups !!
Cat

[260 Rem]

Dale -I suspect if I don't take up the bike for 300M and you don't take your quad to 500, the impatients might use us as moving target practice I have a few barrels chambered to 6.5 X 47L ---the first of which used a reamer with .254" freebore so it could be loaded long and leave max room for powder. I then designed a reamer with .160 free bore which is I prefer for the 130 VLD's. What load are you using for the long stuff. And, by-the-way, there is no less thrill in a good group at 100M than there is at a thousand ...and no less talent either as the margins are relative. Accurate rifles are just tools, the best drivers shine on the track they choose.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

Well, I'm not a benchrest shooter, and have never claimed to be one. But, there's a few folks on this thread who seem to think nothing of equaling or besting exceptional shooting feats. Dale claims 1/4 moa out to 500 or so yards is pretty common place if the conditions are right. Both 260 and I say bull****. A 1 1/4" five shot group at 500 yards is damn special.

Along comes Duceman and 6.5 lapua who both feel a personal need to challenge both 260 and myself to shoot against their buddy Dale. Both are willing to place a wager on the table. Both 260 and I make it clear that we're not suggesting we can shoot better than Dale but hold to our previous conviction that Dale's claim of shooting ability appears to surpass the shooting skills of Sam Hill, something i and 260 view as rather dubious.

Bobby B. responds to Duceman and lapua challenge of making this personal and suggests a contest of brain power, something obviously quite personal. Bobby B. is willing to place as much $$ on the line as either of these dudes wish to bet. So far, no takers.

Bobby B.

well personally you shouldnt have called dale an internet shooter.thats just plain rude.secondly i dont know where this grey matter contest originated?thirdly i have seen plenty of groups shot like that at 500.matter of fact if you look at ducemans group he shot with his 6 br you will notice the first 4 went into 1.5 inches give or take and hes struggling with heartbeat issues etc.how long before he gets that sorted out and shoots a quarter minute group at 500?i bet not long.as far as competitive shoots go they are always contested during the mid day when mirage,wind etc. is up and stress levels are also.then quarter minute groups are very difficult and impressive.oh and for the record you have to be at a sanctioned shoot to break a record or halls record wouldnt exist.

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

well personally you shouldnt have called dale an internet shooter.thats just plain rude.secondly i dont know where this grey matter contest originated?thirdly i have seen plenty of groups shot like that at 500.matter of fact if you look at ducemans group he shot with his 6 br you will notice the first 4 went into 1.5 inches give or take and hes struggling with heartbeat issues etc.how long before he gets that sorted out and shoots a quarter minute group at 500?i bet not long.as far as competitive shoots go they are always contested during the mid day when mirage,wind etc. is up and stress levels are also.then quarter minute groups are very difficult and impressive.oh and for the record you have to be at a sanctioned shoot to break a record or halls record wouldnt exist.

Well, maybe I was a little hasty about Dale, maybe I wasn't. When someone starts talking about shooting world class groups like they grow on trees, someone might just call them on it. That's what 260 did and that's what I did. So what? How's this any skin off your ass? Dale might be a world class shot, and he might not. Anyone can claim anything on the internet. I'm confident Dale can speak up for himself. What makes you think you need to do the barking?

Second, you thought you should be a smart guy and decide to place bets on Dale against me and against 260. At no time did I crow about my shooting ability nor did 260 crow about his. But, you wanted to involve me personally so I invited you to be involved personally. You think you're a smart guy? I don't think you're as smart as me. My offer still stands. Are you going to accept or not? Earlier you wanted to double your money, I'm offering you the chance to do so. All you have to do is beat me intellectually. Bring it smart guy.

Bobby B.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Here is the website for the Williamsport original 1,000 yard club.
http://www.pa1000yard.com/
Note that the score and groups are ten shots!!
There are some pretty nice ten shot groups there, considering that they often cannot see their shots during the heat, and shoot at clays on the berm for zeroing.

Most notable for me is a very long time member their who had a ten target aggregate one year that was averaging UNDER 8" - that is ten ten shot groups !!
Cat

its darn impressive.this year when i shot the burns lake 1000 yard br match the mirage almost made me dizzy! the local shooter who won shot a 10 shot group at 9 inches with most in the ten ring with his lil ol 6.5x47 lapua.that was really impressive.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

Well, maybe I was a little hasty about Dale, maybe I wasn't. When someone starts talking about shooting world class groups like they grow on trees, someone might just call them on it. That's what 260 did and that's what I did. So what? How's this any skin off your ass? Dale might be a world class shot, and he might not. Anyone can claim anything on the internet. I'm confident Dale can speak up for himself. What makes you think you need to do the barking?

Second, you thought you should be a smart guy and decide to place bets on Dale against me and against 260. At no time did I crow about my shooting ability nor did 260 crow about his. But, you wanted to involve me personally so I invited you to be involved personally. You think you're a smart guy? I don't think you're as smart as me. My offer still stands. Are you going to accept or not? Earlier you wanted to double your money, I'm offering you the chance to do so. All you have to do is beat me intellectually. Bring it smart guy.

Bobby B.

you might have wrote the book on arrogance.maybe you should put that huge cranium to bed on your extra big pillow.

[plmnnkoqaz]

Now I am definitely not even an Internet class shooter, but with all of this fluid dynamics and what not, is there a place for the old adage: "Small targets = small groups." For some reason on the Internet it's never the fingers fault.

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

you might have wrote the book on arrogance.maybe you should put that huge cranium to bed on your extra big pillow.

Resorting to insults. Classy, real classy. Too bad your big mouth had to derail this thread.

Bobby B.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

its darn impressive.this year when i shot the burns lake 1000 yard br match the mirage almost made me dizzy! the local shooter who won shot a 10 shot group at 9 inches with most in the ten ring with his lil ol 6.5x47 lapua.that was really impressive.

What really cranks my tractor is watching palma rifle rounds plunk right into the V bull.
Apparently irons and 308's are not accurate at 900 meters!!
However, anytime a shooter posts a good group from any discipline, it's a good thing to see, be it Fclass, Natioanl course, English match, palma or bench.
All shooters on the line are on equal terms with the equipment in use!

Cat

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Dale -I suspect if I don't take up the bike for 300M and you don't take your quad to 500, the impatients might use us as moving target practice I have a few barrels chambered to 6.5 X 47L ---the first of which used a reamer with .254" freebore so it could be loaded long and leave max room for powder. I then designed a reamer with .160 free bore which is I prefer for the 130 VLD's. What load are you using for the long stuff. And, by-the-way, there is no less thrill in a good group at 100M than there is at a thousand ...and no less talent either as the margins are relative. Accurate rifles are just tools, the best drivers shine on the track they choose.

I like lots of room for long bullets, but I also believe uniform neck tension contributes more to accuracy than seating up close to rifle lands. A barrel that's chambered 6.5-284 will show throat erosion in as little as 300 rnds but may have an accuracy life of up to 1000 rnds. Even after 200 rnds barrel erosion has progressed to a point where bullet will no longer reach lands. I like to seat the bullet shank right down to the top of shoulder for maximum neck tension. Powder packs. In the 6.5X47L I'm using my own 140 gr over way more Varget than I should mention with a CCI 450 primer. The Varget is compressed. If I can get one mile hits with this I will try 2000 yds.