Bullet stability vs flight time

[dickgazinya]

Boy this thread did get interesting in a hurry. At first it was filled with some good info and interesting theories in regard to the original question.
Then another guy chimes in with an observation he's made in regard to the ability to shoot small groups at long distances, when conditions are taken out of the equation.
Immediately, that fellow is called a b.s.er, and compared to a world class shooter.
Another poster chimes in, asking a simple question, will the doubter's be competing in a competition booked for this weekend.
Then another poster, who must personally know Dalej, says he would bet on the competition if the doubters showed up, because he believes in Dale's ability.
Apparently the doubter is not comfortable with attending the shoot, but offers to shoot against Dale if he will come to his backyard.
The doubter also takes offense to the confidence that 6.5x47 has in Dale's shooting ability, challenges him to a test of brains, not shooting.
Then Bobby claims to have a personal connection to world class shooter Sam 'Hill', and will invite him over to give Dale a lesson.
I'm here to tell you, if i though i could get some bench time with Sam HALL, i would be all over it!
In reading a lot of threads on this forum, it seems that a lot of guys like to make some rude comments, then go on to start a peeing match as opposed to carry on a civil, and informative discussion.

[gopher]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

Well, maybe I was a little hasty about Dale, maybe I wasn't. When someone starts talking about shooting world class groups like they grow on trees, someone might just call them on it. That's what 260 did and that's what I did. So what? How's this any skin off your ass? Dale might be a world class shot, and he might not. Anyone can claim anything on the internet. I'm confident Dale can speak up for himself. What makes you think you need to do the barking?

Second, you thought you should be a smart guy and decide to place bets on Dale against me and against 260. At no time did I crow about my shooting ability nor did 260 crow about his. But, you wanted to involve me personally so I invited you to be involved personally. You think you're a smart guy? I don't think you're as smart as me. My offer still stands. Are you going to accept or not? Earlier you wanted to double your money, I'm offering you the chance to do so. All you have to do is beat me intellectually. Bring it smart guy.

Bobby B.

Sounds.

[260 Rem]

Here how I would put this one to bed. With regard to the idea of bullets "going to sleep" over distance...no convincing argument in this thread to suggest any merit in that theory. If there was "proof" in the theory, it would happen with all bullets, all the time instead of just a few observations by a few shooters. Myth debunked? I think so.

With regard to claims that groups can be routinely shot that match, or better records set at International Benchrest Shooters events ... perhaps, but logic dictates it is unlikely. There are lots of world class groups claimed, and I have no doubt it happens occassionally....but just needing good conditions to do it routinely... logic dictates it is unlikely. Whizzing contests aside ...and given the fact that the claimant never offered to make any long drives ... (we need to be clear that it was a buddy who threw down the glove)... the best way to get closure is to look at the record. Competions are held regularly and records are kept, so perhaps those who have access to the results of sanctioned shoots, could share some stats? Most of us have never attended sanctioned long range shoots, but I, for one would if I had the opportunity to see a shooter post a 1/4 MOA agg over 500yds ... perhaps my thinking is wrong...and I'd welcome some "schoolin" in this regard, but I think it is tough to hold a consitant 1/4MOA over 300M in real world conditions (and that folks, is what we have every day). NOTE: When posting the shoot result stats I referenced, it would be interesting to see the "best group" for the day, as well as the agg. Thanks

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by dickgazinya

Boy this thread did get interesting in a hurry. At first it was filled with some good info and interesting theories in regard to the original question.
Then another guy chimes in with an observation he's made in regard to the ability to shoot small groups at long distances, when conditions are taken out of the equation.
Immediately, that fellow is called a b.s.er, and compared to a world class shooter.
Another poster chimes in, asking a simple question, will the doubter's be competing in a competition booked for this weekend.
Then another poster, who must personally know Dalej, says he would bet on the competition if the doubters showed up, because he believes in Dale's ability.
Apparently the doubter is not comfortable with attending the shoot, but offers to shoot against Dale if he will come to his backyard.
The doubter also takes offense to the confidence that 6.5x47 has in Dale's shooting ability, challenges him to a test of brains, not shooting.
Then Bobby claims to have a personal connection to world class shooter Sam 'Hill', and will invite him over to give Dale a lesson.
I'm here to tell you, if i though i could get some bench time with Sam HALL, i would be all over it!
In reading a lot of threads on this forum, it seems that a lot of guys like to make some rude comments, then go on to start a peeing match as opposed to carry on a civil, and informative discussion.

Well, that's one perspective. More than a bit twisted but a perspective nonetheless. Please explain how you concluded that I have a personal connection to Sam Hill? While you're at it, please explain how you derived the notion my intent was for Sam to teach Dale a lesson. Also while you're at it, please address why you assume I'm not comfortable attending the shoot. Do you believe it's possible I have prior plans to be elsewhere, somewhere with a fishing rod in my hands? Also, do explain how I offered to shoot against Dale if he came to my backyard. But, wait. You did get one part right, sort of. Both 260 and I questioned the ease at which Dale claims to shoot world class groups.

I've never met Dale and have no information regarding his shooting ability other than his claim to readily shoot 1/4 moa out to 500 yards or so. He might well be able to. Maybe not. I really don't know. I do know this much, I've heard alot of claims of incredible shooting skills over the years and most are pure BS. This is not to say Dale is a BSer. I don't know Dale and so can not make the decision one way or another. How many shooters out there can actually shoot 1/4 moa out to 500 yards in comparison to those who claim to do it? See the difference?

Bobby B.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by urcayuse

Playing with some loads today ,just barely MOA @ 100yds. Yet they are sub 1/4 MOA at 570. Do some bullets require some flight time before they get stable? Does'nt seem to make sense but i've found this to be the result twice. Any more experienced guys out there get similar results?

here is Brad Sauve talking on his best load in F-Class shooting.. and yes to some bullets being more stable at longer ranges when shot with the right bullet shape and fps all other things being equal..
the US F-class team is shooting 180 grain PP in 1000yds matchs this year

F-Class is Palma for us old guys or some of us have used our
scopes and rifles for this Long Range Shooting for over 30 yrs

we have a 530 yds at our range www.Hintonfishandgame.ca


Food for Thought

David

But I finally found my "sweetheart" load on February 14, 2000 (Valentines Day), almost seven months after getting the rifle. This is the load I still shoot today and I shot all weekend at the F-Class Nationals. The break-through came when I discovered that slower velocities produced outstanding accuracy. I found that Varget pushing a 175 SMK at about 2610 fps delivered quarter-MOA groups out to 300 yards and half-minute or better groups beyond that distance. Since developing that load, I've used Lapua cases and Russian primers, but the core elements, 43.0 grains Varget with 175 MKs seated 0.018" off the lands, has not changed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB4NGNaKnhE

[catnthehat]

Actually , Fclas and alma are two colmpetly different dicsiplines, one is used with a resat or bi-pod and optics and the other is used with sling 'n' irons.

There are two distinct clases of Fclass, and but no different equipment classes for palma.

Cat

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Actually , Fclas and alma are two colmpetly different dicsiplines, one is used with a resat or bi-pod and optics and the other is used with sling 'n' irons.

There are two distinct clases of Fclass, and but no different equipment classes for palma.

Cat

for us Old guys;;;;; yes on the different equipment classes

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

for us Old guys;;;;; yes on the different equipment classes

Fclass has also turned into very much an equipment race, what with a zillion different cartridges and stocks out there, whgereas palma is still very strict on stuff like trigger pull weight, gun weight, cartridge used, etc.
The fact remains owever, tha the best shooters are still winning both dicsiplines.....
Cat

[urcayuse]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

Well, that's one perspective. More than a bit twisted but a perspective nonetheless. Please explain how you concluded that I have a personal connection to Sam Hill? While you're at it, please explain how you derived the notion my intent was for Sam to teach Dale a lesson. Also while you're at it, please address why you assume I'm not comfortable attending the shoot. Do you believe it's possible I have prior plans to be elsewhere, somewhere with a fishing rod in my hands? Also, do explain how I offered to shoot against Dale if he came to my backyard. But, wait. You did get one part right, sort of. Both 260 and I questioned the ease at which Dale claims to shoot world class groups.

I've never met Dale and have no information regarding his shooting ability other than his claim to readily shoot 1/4 moa out to 500 yards or so. He might well be able to. Maybe not. I really don't know. I do know this much, I've heard alot of claims of incredible shooting skills over the years and most are pure BS. This is not to say Dale is a BSer. I don't know Dale and so can not make the decision one way or another. How many shooters out there can actually shoot 1/4 moa out to 500 yards in comparison to those who claim to do it? See the difference?

Bobby B.

Maybe take a quick read through your prior posts,it'll likely give you a new perspective

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by urcayuse

Maybe take a quick read through your prior posts,it'll likely give you a new perspective

Why don't you explain it to me. Use a PM so we don't continue to derail this thread.

Bobby B.

[urcayuse]

Why? You want to challenge me to a game of suduko,maybe a spelling contest is more your style?.......Sorry man I just could'nt help myself!

[silver]

Originally Posted by dickgazinya

Boy this thread did get interesting in a hurry. At first it was filled with some good info and interesting theories in regard to the original question.
Then another guy chimes in with an observation he's made in regard to the ability to shoot small groups at long distances, when conditions are taken out of the equation.
Immediately, that fellow is called a b.s.er, and compared to a world class shooter.
Another poster chimes in, asking a simple question, will the doubter's be competing in a competition booked for this weekend.
Then another poster, who must personally know Dalej, says he would bet on the competition if the doubters showed up, because he believes in Dale's ability.
Apparently the doubter is not comfortable with attending the shoot, but offers to shoot against Dale if he will come to his backyard.
The doubter also takes offense to the confidence that 6.5x47 has in Dale's shooting ability, challenges him to a test of brains, not shooting.
Then Bobby claims to have a personal connection to world class shooter Sam 'Hill', and will invite him over to give Dale a lesson.
I'm here to tell you, if i though i could get some bench time with Sam HALL, i would be all over it!
In reading a lot of threads on this forum, it seems that a lot of guys like to make some rude comments, then go on to start a peeing match as opposed to carry on a civil, and informative discussion.

I agree with you, tis the common trait of the internet, the bane of intellectual discussion.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Fclass has also turned into very much an equipment race, what with a zillion different cartridges and stocks out there, whgereas palma is still very strict on stuff like trigger pull weight, gun weight, cartridge used, etc.
The fact remains owever, tha the best shooters are still winning both dicsiplines.....
Cat

Yeah the older Palma shooters are loving F-class .. as you say they were shooter's in Palma and now with their eye not as good the switch to F-class

i have iron sight but have used scoped rifle since the seventies.. but i did vent that Black Wolf the other day with the 94 at 20 yards.. lmao

David
http://www.chuckhawks.com/f-class_shooting.htm

[silver]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Here how I would put this one to bed. With regard to the idea of bullets "going to sleep" over distance...no convincing argument in this thread to suggest any merit in that theory. If there was "proof" in the theory, it would happen with all bullets, all the time instead of just a few observations by a few shooters. Myth debunked? I think so.

Myth debunked, I think not. Because it does not happen every time does not mean it is not a valid hypothesis. To say it should happen every time or it is bunk is foolish. If you disagree, go argue with Gen Julian Hatcher.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Yeah the older Palma shooters are loving F-class .. as you say they were shooter's in Palma and now with their eye not as good the switch to F-class

i have iron sight but have used scoped rifle since the seventies.. but i did vent that Black Wolf the other day with the 94 at 20 yards.. lmao

David
http://www.chuckhawks.com/f-class_shooting.htm

I still prefer shoooting palma to Fclass, even though I have a few Fclass guns.
There is nothing more satisfying for me than to get strapped into the monkey suit jacket and get behind an ironsighted match rifle, ans far as rifle match shooting goes.!
Cat

[catnthehat]

http://www.chuckhawks.com/f-class_shooting.htm[/QUOTE]

It's interesting how the yanks seem to forget to mention that Fclass was in fact designed by a Canuck - George Farquharson, the "F" is for him, not Freestyle " as I was told by a guy last year!!!
Cat

[Speckle55]

here is a 5 inch group at 1000 yds enjoy and another
David

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_rod...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03qtX...eature=related

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

here is a 5 inch group at 1000 yds enjoy
David

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_rod...eature=related

2 years old, I Think I remember seeing that on BR central, it may have been broken now, not sure.
Didn't take him long to throw down 10 rounds, great shooting!
Cat

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

http://www.chuckhawks.com/f-class_shooting.htm

It's interesting how the yanks seem to forget to mention that Fclass was in fact designed by a Canuck - George Farquharson, the "F" is for him, not Freestyle " as I was told by a guy last year!!!
Cat[/QUOTE]

yep another Canuck idea

gheeeessss my American cousins lol

David

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

2 years old, I Think I remember seeing that on BR central, it may have been broken now, not sure.
Didn't take him long to throw down 10 rounds, great shooting!
Cat

Agree

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by silver

Myth debunked, I think not. Because it does not happen every time does not mean it is not a valid hypothesis. To say it should happen every time or it is bunk is foolish. If you disagree, go argue with Gen Julian Hatcher.

Physics is physics... just a guess, but I suspect the "phenomenon" of a bullet going to sleep and thereby directing back towards the center of its original course...is observed by..maybe 1 out of every 100 shooters... and therefore is likey explained by some other factor than "stabilization".. Not sure who Gen Jullian Hatcher is, but if he's not in the same line of work as Albert Einstein ... I think I'll pass on the argument.
Edit: Googled Gen Hatcher who died in the early 60's ...I wonder if he read Albert's work? Albert's work is still referenced on a daily basis...Gen Hatcher, well, once on this forum

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by urcayuse

Why? You want to challenge me to a game of suduko,maybe a spelling contest is more your style?.......Sorry man I just could'nt help myself!

It's plain to see that you can't spell "couldn't", so, since it's you, it can't be a spelling contest, a farting or burping contest would better suit your intellect. It's quite obvious where your head, and therefore your brains, are located. I'd want you to utilize your best assets. Get it? Or do you need a blank piece of paper and some crayons? Considering your performance so far, I'll give you a hint. What's the first 3 letters of asset? Still require help? No problem, just let me know. Help yourself to that one.

Bobby B.

[Speckle55]

here is the General..

David

http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/hatcher-table.htm

http://www.goordnance.army.mil/hof/1...1/hatcher.html

[urcayuse]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

It's plain to see that you can't spell "couldn't", so, since it's you, it can't be a spelling contest, a farting or burping contest would better suit your intellect. It's quite obvious where your head, and therefore your brains, are located. I'd want you to utilize your best assets. Get it? Or do you need a blank piece of paper and some crayons? Considering your performance so far, I'll give you a hint. What's the first 3 letters of asset? Still require help? No problem, just let me know. Help yourself to that one.

Bobby B.

Your a mean old man!

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by urcayuse

Your a mean old man!

That's 'you're', not 'your'.

Bobby B.

[urcayuse]

Oh let's play a game i'll leave a spelling mistak ,you find it!

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by urcayuse

Oh let's play a game i'll leave a spelling mistak ,you find it!

Let's play a game. You write a sentence without a spelling mistake. Sharpen your crayons.

Bobby B.

[260 Rem]

Testing the sleepy bullet theory. Can't do this at SPFGA because we only have 300M (unless there is someone who has a rifle that shoots better 300M groups than at 100M). An ideal place would be Ft Mac or Peace Country which go beyond 500M and have some proven shooters ---Cat might be convinced in Ft Mac and maybe DaleJ in PCFGA-???
On a given day, whoever has a rifle/bullet combination that is demonstrating bullets stabilizing over distance ..lets one of these shooters use their rifle to shoot five/five shot groups at 100M and five/five shot groups at 500M. At the same time, someone who has a rifle bullet combination that follows the normal principles of physics brings their rig to be shot as well. The shooter would not be told which rifle was which. Groups would be fired at alternate distances (first 5 at 100, next five at 500) on a calm day. I realize the proper way to do this is a more thorough double blind test ...but, a bit harder to arrange. Cat/DaleJ --if you guys are game --if so, all we need to do is find the rifles.

[Bobby B.]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Testing the sleepy bullet theory. Can't do this at SPFGA because we only have 300M (unless there is someone who has a rifle that shoots better 300M groups than at 100M). An ideal place would be Ft Mac or Peace Country which go beyond 500M and have some proven shooters ---Cat might be convinced in Ft Mac and maybe DaleJ in PCFGA-???
On a given day, whoever has a rifle/bullet combination that is demonstrating bullets stabilizing over distance ..lets one of these shooters use their rifle to shoot five/five shot groups at 100M and five/five shot groups at 500M. At the same time, someone who has a rifle bullet combination that follows the normal principles of physics brings their rig to be shot as well. The shooter would not be told which rifle was which. Groups would be fired at alternate distances (first 5 at 100, next five at 500) on a calm day. I realize the proper way to do this is a more thorough double blind test ...but, a bit harder to arrange. Cat/DaleJ --if you guys are game --if so, all we need to do is find the rifles.

Oh boy. Someone has to go and get all sciencematatic about it all. Jeeez, can't you just take everyone's word for what happens? My gawd, 260, what's for the matter mit youse? What's next? Proof? Why isn't hearsay good enough? You're spoiling all the fun. You need to claim more and think less. And quote irrelevant information. You know, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullchit.

Well, guys, it's been entertaining if not productive. But, I have some other matters that require my attention so I must say,thank you and goodnight, at least for now. Sweet dreams to all.

Bobby B.

[catnthehat]

I have three pretty fresh rifles, one in fact is unfired.
However, in my experience, I have never seen a rifle shoot tighter at 200 or than it did at 100 unless there was something amiss with the scope, but it takes more than a few groups too rule out human error.
The two original fallign block long range rifles that Oldbadger and had put together in 6.5Badcat ( 6.5WSM) would actually group super at 100 or 1,000, I even dropped one of OB's rounds into the same 6" group at 1,000 out of my gun, two bullets, powder.

These two guns , on a given day, would shoot under .5", five shot groups at 100 if I was on, and right around 6" @1,000 if I was in the zone as well.
My Ruger No.1 Fclass guns in 6MMBR and 308 would shoot 10 into a tiny little group at any range with no problem, same as the Omark M44's in 308.

I never however, in all my years shot the same gun consistently with a larger group at 100 than I did even at 200.
My No.1V did it, yes, but in the long run it proved that the gun was not the issue.
It is even more apparent with a 22LR match rifle or iron sighted match rifle.
To really prove it, I think a lab would be needed, with several rail guns , and an indoor range......
Cat