Why the big fascination with First focal plane

[wolfkiller]

Too bad work gets in the way but hey I got my own range and can have targets set up at various unknown yardages if someone wants to take me up on a "test". For the average person to know exact holdover points in a SFP scope thru all the various yardages and magnification settings I say good on ya.

[Pathfinder76]

Some people just need a reason to lie awake at night.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by wolfkiller

Too bad work gets in the way but hey I got my own range and can have targets set up at various unknown yardages if someone wants to take me up on a "test". For the average person to know exact holdover points in a SFP scope thru all the various yardages and magnification settings I say good on ya.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I certainly am not dissing you. But I drove 3 hours there and 3 hours back yesterday to shoot my F class at 1000 metres. Truly an eye opener. Found out that my "software" come ups were truly on the mark in comparison with the real world. Hold over is easy enough, but windage and mirage is a whole different story.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by chuck

Some people just need a reason to lie awake at night.

Missing the mark by a couple of inches at 800 meters doesbk eep me awake at night Chuck. So what's your point?

[DaleJ]

I have yet to hear anybody wishing they had not bought a FFP scope, and that speaks for itself. As for busy reticles they are not limited to FFP. Even when shooting at known distances or F-class, all corrections made are linear to the reticle and it makes no difference if distances are yards, meters, or cubits.

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

I don't see the benefit of a ffp scope myself. The retical covers the target on high mag and on low mag you just can't aim tight enough.

x2.i see no benefit to it unless you are ranging with it ;which was the whole intent of it in the first place.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by DaleJ

I have yet to hear anybody wishing they had not bought a FFP scope, and that speaks for itself. As for busy reticles they are not limited to FFP. Even when shooting at known distances or F-class, all corrections made are linear to the reticle and it makes no difference if distances are yards, meters, or cubits.

Absolutely, but as things are these days, judgment calls, and common sense are a thing of the past. Thus, scopes are designed to take the ijut factor outta the equation.......Oh, boy, flame suit on Heck, how could one expect another who can barely spell three words correctly in a row to make mathematical corrections mentally?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Absolutely, but as things are these days, judgment calls, and common sense are a thing of the past. Thus, scopes are designed to take the ijut factor outta the equation.......Oh, boy, flame suit on

Ijut factor only works so well then operator error comes in

At the rifle rodeo for my first shot on the wolf I miscalculated in my head and was out by a factor of two LOL.

Things settled in for the next couple shots though

LC

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Ijut factor only works so well then operator error comes in

At the rifle rodeo for my first shot on the wolf I miscalculated in my head and was out by a factor of two LOL.

Things settled in for the next couple shots though

LC

Well poop does happen LC, and in some situations, you have very littlebtime to adjust. Proof that a rifle rodeo will test more than a single skill.

[ctd]

I bought a FFP scope for what has already been said about them,
I also have three methods of accurately range finding, LRF, Reticle and knob adjustment. [four if including estimating]
If any two of these three ways does not work for what ever reason I still have the third to fall back on.
I find it a pain that for hold over using a SFP I have to be on a certain power setting. FFP no worry.

I own both styles of scopes and this will be my first season hunting with the FFP so I will have to see how much I like it. So far at the range it performs well.

[DaleJ]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Absolutely, but as things are these days, judgment calls, and common sense are a thing of the past. Thus, scopes are designed to take the ijut factor outta the equation.......Oh, boy, flame suit on Heck, how could one expect another who can barely spell three words correctly in a row to make mathematical corrections mentally?

I don't have a FFP scope, but the next scope I buy will be a FFP. Do I need it? no. Will it hinder my shooting? no. To approve or disapprove without first hand experience is normal in the shooting community.

[gitrdun]

Not saying I dissaprove. Just stating what works for me and why.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Missing the mark by a couple of inches at 800 meters doesbk eep me awake at night Chuck. So what's your point?

That's you not a focul plane.

[tchardy1972]

I was out with a guy awhile ago who had that ffp vortex pst. We were trying to hit a coke can at just under 600 yards and it completely disappeared behind his cross hair. In my sfp sightron there were no issues seeing the target. Hitting it was a different story. If you go on tere websites and look at the retical specs for those scopes, on high mag the retical covers a lot. I'm sure they have their place but its not in the precision rifle game or varmint fields.

[tchardy1972]

To add to my last post. Anyone that has shot a lot of long range knows that your drop changes with conditions, sometimes this change can be considerable. So the guy counting on a previously made chart or his memory to use his retical is in for an eye opener.

[wolfkiller]

It don't matter if you got a FFP or SFP changes in conditions changes all drop charts, thanks for the tips though, lmao.

[duceman]

i love my fixed 6x42 for hunting. i have no idea what my focal plane is, but it sure works good, the exact same every time!
i use a 1 moa dot in my big game rifles, and estimate range with it, if i have time, lee

[huntingd]

Originally Posted by wolfkiller

So a SFP scope is faster than a FFP? Okay so you got a 6-24 power scope with mil reticle, and a deer steps out at 600yds, and your on 9 power whats the mil holdover, oops you adjust to 22 power, oops your mil holdover just changed again, boy that's handy. SFP scopes are a waste of time, while your still looking at all your charts for your different magnification settings I will already be at my animal taking photos.

Easy. Time on the range tells me 12x 2nd mil dot. Takes no time at all. I'm not saying its faster or better. But its easy. And fast enough for me.

[huntingd]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

To add to my last post. Anyone that has shot a lot of long range knows that your drop changes with conditions, sometimes this change can be considerable. So the guy counting on a previously made chart or his memory to use his retical is in for an eye opener.

Still waiting for the eye opener.

[marxman]

hey hey, ho ho, ffp's the way to go hey hey, ho ho, ...

[wally338]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

I was out with a guy awhile ago who had that ffp vortex pst. We were trying to hit a coke can at just under 600 yards and it completely disappeared behind his cross hair. In my sfp sightron there were no issues seeing the target. Hitting it was a different story. If you go on tere websites and look at the retical specs for those scopes, on high mag the retical covers a lot. I'm sure they have their place but its not in the precision rifle game or varmint fields.

I agree the crosshairs on the Viper are very heavy at max power but that is a entry level FFP scope. When you get to a little higher end stuff like Nightforce they come with hollow mildots so the target isn't obscured or with S&B one can choose between and standard or fine crosshairs.Also the optics on the Viper are poor at best especially above 12x. Not trying to pick on you,just pointing out that not all FFP mil/mil scopes are high quality.

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by wally338

I agree the crosshairs on the Viper are very heavy at max power but that is a entry level FFP scope. When you get to a little higher end stuff like Nightforce they come with hollow mildots so the target isn't obscured or with S&B one can choose between and standard or fine crosshairs.Also the optics on the Viper are poor at best especially above 12x. Not trying to pick on you,just pointing out that not all FFP mil/mil scopes are high quality.

Fair enough. Thats my only experience with ffp.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by duceman

i love my fixed 6x42 for hunting. i have no idea what my focal plane is, but it sure works good, the exact same every time!
i use a 1 moa dot in my big game rifles, and estimate range with it, if i have time, lee

Lee, focal plane does not come into play with a fixed power scope. The reticle though is still in one of the two, I believe that it is on the second focal plane (nearest the eyepiece), but don't take my word for it. I did take an old broken down Bushnell fixed power once to see what was inside. The reticle was nearest the eyepiece. Your Sightron SIII I believe are SFP based on looking thru them. I did look thru a Vortex at WSS not that long ago, and it appeared to be FFP.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by chuck

That's you not a focul plane.

No argument there.

Originally Posted by markg

I recently put up a thread selling a tactical scope. Every person that was interested in it asked if it was FFP. I don't understand why anyone would want FFP. Accurate shooting is about consistency and I don't think having a reticle that changes size as you change magnification helps. I understand that the reticle can be used for range finding but so can a laser and well frankly the latter does it a lot more accurately and faster. Lastly using the reticle requires math and I think that I could use the parallax on the scope to find the range as accurately and as fast as doing formula computations on my reticle.

Is there something I am missing as to why people like FFP? Where am I wrong?

Ffp scopes with any hash mark system has the reticle system calibrated at ANY magnification. It doesn't matter what power it is set at. 1 moa on a reticle system that is ffp is 1moa at any power. Animals like antelope can cover terrain quickly and you may find after dialing in the target has moved. With a ffp scope you can quickly use the reticle system to hold off the required amount - at any power.

A sfp scope requires the variable power to be set at a predetermined power for the reticle calibration to be 1 to 1. I.e. nightforce 8-32x56 needs to be set to 22x for the reticle to be 1 to 1. If you are not at 22x, it is not 1 to 1. There is room for more error with a sfp system when using the reticle system as it was intended. Ffp does not suffer this issue.

[markg]

I wanted to thank everyone for there imput. I learned alot about FFP shooting. I dont think i like it, and i will be sticking to my SFP scopes but i now know what the appeal is and why others use them.

Its a classic case of different strokes for different folks

[marxman]

i wish i had a ffp scope it only makes sense why wouldnt someone want one when your reticle covers the same area at any power thats like, duh

[wally338]

If anyone in southern SK would like to try out a FFP I would be happy to meet up at the Avonlea gun range and let them try out my S&B PPMII 3-20x50 currently mounted on my 7mm.

Premier reticles makes a nice 5-25x56 moa type reticle as well!

[Ivo]

Originally Posted by Precisionshooter

Premier reticles makes a nice 5-25x56 moa type reticle as well!

Joe,
I think this is new, is that right?

I currently own a Premier Reticles 5-25x56 and a S&B 5-25x56PMII(both FFP). Both are phenomenal scopes and the best I have looked through and used to date. I have also owned my fair share of Nightforce, Leupold MK4 and USO to compare them to.

One thing nobody has mentioned so far was specifically using the reticle for holding wind even if you do dial for elevation, here again the advantage goes to FFP.

The argument that second focal plane is better baffles me, if you are going to have any type of subtensioned or scaled reticle in a SFP scope, you may as well be using a fixed power scope because your reticle is useless on any power other than the specified ranging power(which you have to be bang on for it to work properly). Also consider that most scopes out there have MOA turrets and MIL reticles and it becomes even more baffling. Having said that, most manufacturers are finally realizing that these configurations don't work and are changing them accordingly to have mil/mil or moa/moa, my favorite example has always been the Leupold MK4.

As for the BS regarding your reticle covering the target....on POS scopes, yes this may be the case but that's what you get when you buy budget optics for high end use.

I believe on either of my scopes(mounted on 7wsm and 260AI), I am good holding over out to 800m just using my reticle, now add 25 MIL of dialed adjustment and you can accurately get waaaaay out there.

And yes, every shooting situation is different with different calculations required to accommodate for atmospheric conditions. My farm is at 3445' ASL and the conditions(density altitude) are different every time I shoot, now if I go Porcupine Hills(I'm not that brave anymore) everything changes, likewise if I go to Drumheller, Sundre, RMH, Grande Prairie... That's why something like a Kestrel Weather meter can give you a real-time solution to your exact conditions based on density altitude.

The FFP scopes are not for everyone and each rig has its application but the notion that SFP is better than FFP for variable distance long range use is absurd. IMO