To Crossbow or not to crossbow - That is the question!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just to expand further on the mechanics arguement......should a single shot 45/70 be permitted in muzzleloader season. They have basically identical ballistics/range/performance/sucess rates. Some in-lines even outperform them.

maybe save this one for a new thread lol

LOL...it was a question that was asked to me...one that made me think long and hard about crossbows and whether performance alone was enough of a factor to make them the same as vertical bows.

[Kudu]

Just got my survey email and did not think SRD gave enough info to make an informed descision??? It would be nice if they laid out a bit more info like...

• will it be all wmu's
• would it be the full archery season or just part of it
• if archery went to draw would it be set up similar to antelope where you pick youre weapon
• what are the reasons for this push? As others have stated there is no Alberta crossbow assoc so where is the pressure coming from

A bit more background and info would be nice.

[elkhunter11]

about equal risk of messing up the shot, might be able to group more consistantly than the other at the range but likely more energy left in top end compounds and with higher bc's etc. i'm betting my xlr8 compound will get there quicker than that crossbow too.....

So you feel that your XLR8 bow rated as launching a 350gr arrow at 360fps will reach 100 yards quicker,and have more energy remaining than a TAC 15 crossbow that launches a 425gr arrow at 400fps?The crossbow has both a 40fps advantage,and a 75gr advantage that you need to overcome to make that happen.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So you feel that your XLR8 bow rated as launching a 350gr arrow at 360fps will reach 100 yards quicker,and have more energy remaining than a TAC 15 crossbow that launches a 425gr arrow at 400fps?The crossbow has both a 40fps advantage,and a 75gr advantage that you need to overcome to make that happen.

apparently the short fats lose speed quicker, so without going super technical with bc's of different arrows/fletch etc. i'll concede that i can get there at the same time....or close enough to it to be considered......moot

its still a bow, you step afield with one and you will be bowhunting, from picking your broadhead type, to placing your treestands and blinds, you will be bowhunting, and your going to have just as many challenges at getting game in front of you and making the shot as any bowhunter faces and you going to make about the same amount of noise....ie; not gun......bow

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...it was a question that was asked to me...one that made me think long and hard about crossbows and whether performance alone was enough of a factor to make them the same as vertical bows.

fffffft vs bang

broadhead vs bullet

muscles to draw/cock it vs powder explosion

harvest stats vs harvest stats

so you going to tell us your vote or keep playing devils advocate?

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

fffffft vs bang

broadhead vs bullet

muscles to draw/cock it vs powder explosion

harvest stats vs harvest stats

so you going to tell us your vote or keep playing devils advocate?

Haven't had the opportunity to vote yet. It seems membership does not have its privileges...lol


Every good discussion needs a devil's advocate....

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Kudu

[*]what are the reasons for this push? As others have stated there is no Alberta crossbow assoc so where is the pressure coming from[/LIST]
A bit more background and info would be nice.

for me it was logic, i'm sure there is selfish on both sides that don't really understand the tool and haven't done unbiased homework on it but if you do....you may end up where i and many others have, its a great and very under-utilized weapon choice for hunting and appears to be misplaced in the wrong group of tools and management and hunters could gain more if it were in the right group of tools

nothing scary here, we are just way behind in the learning of this tool, we are missing out

neat eh? you can win this one on logic alone, study the tool itself and where it has been allowed newly or for long time and its as close to compound performance afield as you could ever want to be classed the same imo....yet offers a one size/strength fits all option, just like gun seasons have, the question isn't why would we.....its why wouldn't we!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Haven't had the opportunity to vote yet. It seems membership does not have its privileges...lol


Every good discussion needs a devil's advocate....

tryin to look like the good guy eh, play up the archers for a bit but we all know your going to 'yes' it, smooth moves sheephunter lol

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

tryin to look like the good guy eh, play up the archers for a bit but we all know your going to 'yes' it, smooth moves sheephunter lol

LOL...you might be surprised

[bluetick]

No all the way,Its enjoyable having this time of the year to persue game with a compound or recurve.The fact a crossbow does allow for instant shot at a significant distance without any sort of practice sums it up.
It isnt archery so it shouldnt fall under archery season,the woods will be full of every wanna be archer armed with high teck equipment .this will result in lower numbers of game and thus the draws will be upon every zone .
If you have a disability ,by all means you should be allowed to use a crossbow to some extent,other than that get ,you butt to the range with a regular bow and practice like the rest of us.



NO all, the way to the end.

[Kudu]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

for me it was logic, i'm sure there is selfish on both sides that don't really understand the tool and haven't done unbiased homework on it but if you do....you may end up where i and many others have, its a great and very under-utilized weapon choice for hunting and appears to be misplaced in the wrong group of tools and management and hunters could gain more if it were in the right group of tools

nothing scary here, we are just way behind in the learning of this tool, we are missing out

neat eh? you can win this one on logic alone, study the tool itself and where it has been allowed newly or for long time and its as close to compound performance afield as you could ever want to be classed the same imo....yet offers a one size/strength fits all option, just like gun seasons have, the question isn't why would we.....its why wouldn't we!

Stinky,

soooo....how is it that you know my background with regards to crossbows??? You assume that i do not have any info or hands on experience however....I actually owned a crossbow for a time (after a skidoo accident caused me to be unable to shoot my bow and i used the crossbow for spot and stalk black bear hunting during a GENERAL season) and know exactly what they are capable of, but as stated above most people do not know the good and/or the bad.

The reason i think there should be more info and some background as to how SRD got to the point of asking the question about crossbows is exactly because of some of the stuff that has been posted in the last 15 pages of this thread!

One thing i will agree with you on is that there is some selfish reasons for both sides!

[packhuntr]

Stinky, You say we need more efficency, this is the tool, its the real deal, this is where it belongs, etc etc. Im looking around myself thinking hmmm, we sure dont seem to have a problem with management initiatives here in the south, cause in about 4 short years weve basically extirpated our prairie deer. If efficiency is the game, we need dead ungulates, we need some good men that are tooled and capable of doing it, and we need em now, then I think your time might be better served in promoting the protection of our deer and antelope. What Im getting at is this,,,, we have proven that in a time of need, we can almost litterally wipe the south completely off the map with methods currently in place. We have a HARD time coming up with early season opportunity as it is down here, to challenge ones self with regards to equipment should be seen as THE MOST DESIREABLE way of accomplishing this job in the early season. We are not trying to take another planet here. We really are proven to be overly effective as predators if not controlled, and you are telling me that we need to step into the future, forego common sence, and basically just think about making it easier, so we can get some guys serious about killing some sh*t here. The tool discussed is so much more effective in open country scenario it is not even funny, so much more so in the right hands that many archers do not even wish to share the field with them. Killing sh*t with a Xgun out here is not even going to be a challenge. If you are an open country archer, you know what I speak of. I do not wish to discuss this further but cant help myself... Theres so much more a guy could say. In the end, its just simply shocking, I cant believe it. It is what it is now-a-days eh!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

The tool discussed is so much more effective in open country scenario it is not even funny....Killing sh*t with a Xgun out here is not even going to be a challenge.

Boy, would you be in for a big surprise if you hunted with one!

[LongDraw]

I ask the proponents of “yes”; what is wrong with having a season that is weapon specific, and because of the weapon has a lower participation rate, therefore a lower harvest rate? The fact is the lower harvest rate is the reason there is no draw for most archery seasons.

Originally Posted by LongDraw

I ask the proponents of “yes”; what is wrong with having a season that is weapon specific, and because of the weapon has a lower participation rate, therefore a lower harvest rate? .

While I'm not a proponent of "yes", isn't that what this is all about, inclusion in archery season.....the real question isn't draws or loss of opportunity or the future of archery season but rather if crossbows belong in the weapon specific season known as the archery season. I don't see voting yes as being anti archery season, Rather you are just saying the crossbow should qualify as archery gear and belongs in that weapon specific season. Am I missing something? Sure there are a few anti archery season people but I suspect most in favour of crossbows want to enjoy their use in a dedicated archery season because they feel they belong there with longbows, recurves and compounds.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Boy, would you be in for a big surprise if you hunted with one!

Dave, your talking to guys who have done this kind of hunting with vertical bows.
Belly crawling for hours, and bow strapped to your back, or in your hand, to a crouched or kneeled position to draw, Is a little more difficult than doing the same with a crossbow( much the same a rifleman would). Getting your distance and shooting from the same belly crawl (prone) posistion, in the wide open, flat country. your a smart guy, I know you see and get that part, that we've all talked to death about. No suprises, just common sense.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

While I'm not a proponent of "yes", isn't that what this is all about, inclusion in archery season.....the real question isn't draws or loss of opportunity or the future of archery season but rather if crossbows belong in the weapon specific season known as the archery season. I don't see voting yes as being anti archery season, Rather you are just saying it belongs in that weapon specific season. Am I missing something? Sure there are a few anti archery season people but I suspect most in favour of crossbows want to enjoy their use in a dedicated archery season.

Basically for english challenged people, like Me.......Is a crossbow the same as a vertical bow????? No ,they aren't and don't belong in archery season, yes, they are and should be combined. pretty simple

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Basically for english challenged people, like Me.......Is a crossbow the same as a vertical bow????? No ,they aren't and don't belong in archery season, yes, they are and should be combined. pretty simple

LOL...not ESL at all Potty...that's exactly the way I see it as well. Not sure how you could see it any other way.

[LongDraw]

There is also a group of "cyclists" in Calgary that are lobbying to to ride their electric bikes on the City's bike paths...

Looks like a bike, has pedals, hey you can put an electric hub on your existing bike. Is it still a bike?

Why should I have to sit in rush hour when I can ride my "bike" to work and get their quicker on the bike path??

Originally Posted by LongDraw

There is also a group of "cyclists" in Calgary that are lobbying to to ride their electric bikes on the City's bike paths...

Looks like a bike, has pedals, hey you can put an electric hub on your existing bike. Is it still a bike?

A totally valid question. I'm sure some think they are and others think they aren't but I'm guessing that the proponents of the electric bike aren't anti bikes on the City's bike paths. They just feel they belong with the other bikes. Same as crossbow proponents I'm sure. That was pretty much a perfect analogy for the crossbow question.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

While I'm not a proponent of "yes", isn't that what this is all about, inclusion in archery season.....the real question isn't draws or loss of opportunity or the future of archery season but rather if crossbows belong in the weapon specific season known as the archery season. I don't see voting yes as being anti archery season, Rather you are just saying the crossbow should qualify as archery gear and belongs in that weapon specific season. Am I missing something? Sure there are a few anti archery season people but I suspect most in favour of crossbows want to enjoy their use in a dedicated archery season because they feel they belong there with longbows, recurves and compounds.

The same can be said about any weapon specific season. Do 30/30's and 45/70's belong in the wainwright ML season?

I can buy a bona fide 200 yard ML shooting sabots that burns smokeless powder to hunt in wainwright yet my grandpa cant use his 30/30?
Is that fair?

Why do you get to hunt the first season in wainwright yet I cannot?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Belly crawling for hours, and bow strapped to your back, or in your hand, to a crouched or kneeled position to draw, Is a little more difficult than doing the same with a crossbow( much the same a rifleman would). Getting your distance and shooting from the same belly crawl (prone) posistion, in the wide open, flat country.

Yes potty, I agree that it would be a little easier to shoot a crossbow in the prone position rather than having to crouch or kneel when hunting like that. But, the notion that a crossbow is so much more effective that it wouldn't even be a challenge is....uh hum.....inaccurate IMHO.

Here's what was written:

"The tool discussed is so much more effective in open country scenario it is not even funny, so much more so in the right hands that many archers do not even wish to share the field with them. Killing sh*t with a Xgun out here is not even going to be a challenge."

Originally Posted by LongDraw

The same can be said about any weapon specific season. Do 30/30's and 45/70's belong in the wainwright ML season?

I can buy a bona fide 200 yard ML shooting sabots that burns smokeless powder to hunt in wainwright yet my grandpa cant use his 30/30?
Is that fair?

Why do you get to hunt the first season in wainwright yet I cannot?

Absolutely the same question could be asked....I actually pointed that out earlier. Just like crossbows and electric bikes...similar performance but mechanical differences.

[walking buffalo]

It is legal to use a spear, Atlatl, or even hand held knife in the general season but not in the archery or primitive weapon seasons.
You don't hear the Atlatl guys bitchin for inclusion.

Sorry uglyelk, I don't think Anvils are legal in the archery or primitive weapon season when propelled by gunpowder, but they probably are legal when launched by a catapult.

Since the questionaire forgot to include us spear chuckers in the archery and primitive season, I will vote NO.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Yes potty, I agree that it would be a little easier to shoot a crossbow in the prone position rather than having to crouch or kneel when hunting like that. But, the notion that a crossbow is so much more effective that it wouldn't even be a challenge is....uh hum.....inaccurate IMHO.

Here's what was written:

"The tool discussed is so much more effective in open country scenario it is not even funny, so much more so in the right hands that many archers do not even wish to share the field with them. Killing sh*t with a Xgun out here is not even going to be a challenge."

HunterDave, while I appreciate your stance, your inability to read, and desire to manipulate my post, is not appreciated. You should read the next sentance and add that to your quote, it will clear everything up for ya.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Absolutely the same question could be asked....I actually pointed that out earlier. Just like crossbows and electric bikes...similar performance but mechanical differences.

So what about fighter jets and WW1 biplanes?? They do the same thing, fly, they are planes, but how could we compare them, they are completely different. Guys, how about a potato and an onion,,, ya know, they both can be eaten...? LOL

EDIT,,,, and I guess arch tackle and xbows can both be shot!! This is making perfect sence now
So all it has to do is shoot with pizz poor performance and it can be discussed/considered for an archery season candidate?

Originally Posted by packhuntr

So what about fighter jets and WW1 biplanes?? They do the same thing, fly, they are planes, but how could we compare them, they are completely different. Guys, how about a potato and an onion,,, ya know, they both can be eaten...? LOL

EDIT,,,, and I guess arch tackle and xbows can both be shot!! This is making perfect sence now
So all it has to do is shoot with pizz poor performance and it can be discussed/considered for an archery season candidate?

I think you missed the similar performance part pack but then again you aren't really looking for a productive discussion here are you? The fact is, while you can bring all the rediculous comparisons to the table that you like, the question about crossbows is before the hunting public as we speak. Planes and onions aren't. It would seem more prudent to discuss what's in front of us. Apparently SRD thinks they are close enough to consider it....it will be interesting to see what hunters have to say.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

HunterDave, while I appreciate your stance, your inability to read, and desire to manipulate my post, is not appreciated. You should read the next sentance and add that to your quote, it will clear everything up for ya.

"The tool discussed is so much more effective in open country scenario it is not even funny, so much more so in the right hands that many archers do not even wish to share the field with them. Killing sh*t with a Xgun out here is not even going to be a challenge. If you are an open country archer, you know what I speak of.

I thought that your initial two sentences were pretty clear on their own but I added the next sentence for you. It doesn't matter where you hunt or how you hunt, if you found what you were doing with a longbow or a compound bow challenging, it will be just as challenging with a crossbow.

Similar to what I stated earlier, anyone that thinks they're gonna instantly become the ultimate hunter by just picking up a crossbow is in for a rude awakening. Your success rate will not increase significantly, if any at all.

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

While I'm not a proponent of "yes", isn't that what this is all about, inclusion in archery season.....the real question isn't draws or loss of opportunity or the future of archery season but rather if crossbows belong in the weapon specific season known as the archery season. I don't see voting yes as being anti archery season, Rather you are just saying the crossbow should qualify as archery gear and belongs in that weapon specific season. Am I missing something? Sure there are a few anti archery season people but I suspect most in favour of crossbows want to enjoy their use in a dedicated archery season because they feel they belong there with longbows, recurves and compounds.

How could you feel like you belong in archery season with a cross bow.