Empty Cartridge forensics: Stanley Case

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

A reasonable postulation. From my imagining of the incident I thought of a time where I had intervened with a drunk driver who stopped for traffic after having torn off my drivers side mirror, so my thoughts revolved around the drivers door being opened by Stanley just as I had done and him trying to grab the vehicle keys just as I also did in an instinctual act to stop the vehicle. Go with what you can relate to as a plausible action.

"....so my thoughts revolved around the drivers door being opened by Stanley...."

Sometimes I feel I suffer from a complete lack of imagination. Yes, of course, Stanley may have opened the door. That would change everything.

Good show!

[CaberTosser]

Traveller, you noted your theory on the cartridge being fired while fully chambered, but pulled back to fire-form the case without its signature bottleneck. My understanding of pressure (I'm a plumber so deal with it a lot) would lead me to think that after the bullet has left the cartridge and if the brass was being extracted a bit early at this point, then there would be roughly equal gas pressure on both sides of the case. Further to that, if it was still under such pressure I don't think extraction would be possible due to the case being temporarily expanded against the chamber walls. In this instance a hangfire does make sense to me: a light initial detonation (primer igniting) drives the bullet out of the case just into the barrel rifling and partially opens the action, then when the malfunctioning powder finally fully ignites the blowback of the action had already been initiated resulting in the malformed brass and a fatally wounded Colton Boushie.

[AndrewM]

Wouldn’t a poorly timed or malfunctioning gun do this every time? I thought I read it was fired 100’s of times a year?

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Traveller, you noted your theory on the cartridge being fired while fully chambered, but pulled back to fire-form the case without its signature bottleneck. My understanding of pressure (I'm a plumber so deal with it a lot) would lead me to think that after the bullet has left the cartridge and if the brass was being extracted a bit early at this point, then there would be roughly equal gas pressure on both sides of the case. Further to that, if it was still under such pressure I don't think extraction would be possible due to the case being temporarily expanded against the chamber walls. In this instance a hangfire does make sense to me: a light initial detonation (primer igniting) drives the bullet out of the case just into the barrel rifling and partially opens the action, then when the malfunctioning powder finally fully ignites the blowback of the action had already been initiated resulting in the malformed brass and a fatally wounded Colton Boushie.

While the bullet is still travelling down the barrel, the expanding gases are only acting on the inside of the casing. There is just as much force driving the casing rearward as there is being applied to the sides of the casing against the chamber.

http://www.gunmart.net/images/made/i...2s_700_507.jpg

This diagram of a Tokarev 7.62x25mm cartridge shows the typical Soviet tapered casing; tapering from a diameter of .387 inch just above the groove to .377 inch at the shoulder. Similar to the AK-47 and AK-74, this taper aids extraction by breaking contact with the chamber walls as soon as the casing begins moving rearward.

Think of it this way. If the bolt was removed from the Tokarev, and the pistol fired with no bolt or locking lugs to hold the cartridge in place, do you think elevated gas pressures and friction from the chamber walls would be enough to keep the casing from shooting out of the chamber toward the shooter, prior to the bullet leaving the barrel?

With the limited amount of free bore in a Tokarev, there is not a lot of space between the bullet and the rifling grooves, and your bullet would have very little travel before coming stuck in the riflings.

If only the primer detonated, there would be an extremely limited amount of gas pressure available to both a) separate bullet and casing by approximately 1/2 inch (approximate length of casing bulge) and b) drive the bolt far enough rearward to the position where the bolt and barrel normally stop travelling together and the locking lugs allow them to separate.

Do you see the problem here? The bolt doesn't just have to move rearward the length of the bulge in the casing. The bolt AND barrel, locked together, first must travel rearward to the point where they disengage from each other, and then the bolt must continue by itself, extracting the casing, a distance equal to the length of the bulge in the casing. I dare say this would be an amazing feat for a humble pistol primer, as it normally takes the full force of a cartridge to disengage the locking lugs.

However, there is now another problem. We now have a cartridge full of gunpowder fizzling away ready to ignite and drive its bullet down the barrel, but the casing is no longer fully engaged in the chamber, and the bolt and barrel are no longer locked together. When the powder ignites, it will try to force the bullet through the riflings but, which offers more resistance, rifling grooves or smooth chamber walls? Which has greater mass, an 85 grain bullet or a thin casing? What will very likely happen in this case is the bullet would stay right where it was, up against the riflings, and the bolt would be driven rearward, extracting the casing as it went. With no locking lugs to hold bolt and barrel together, the gases are no longer directed primarily at pushing the bullet down the barrel.

For comparison, imagine you sawed the locking lugs off the bolt of your bolt action rifle and then chambered a cartridge with it in your rifle (for argument sake pretend the bolt handle is not there). When the cartridge ignites, do you think the bullet will travel forward, or the bolt rearward?

In the hangfire scenario, you cannot have a bulged casing base without the casing being partially out of the chamber, and you cannot have a casing partially out of the chamber without the barrel and bolt being unlocked from each other; and this cannot occur until the barrel and bolt have travelled rearward to the point where they unlock.

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Wouldn’t a poorly timed or malfunctioning gun do this every time? I thought I read it was fired 100’s of times a year?

Cartridges are like wine bottles. Some seal well, and some don't. This is why abnormalities with old ammo tend to be sporadic.

[AndrewM]

In order for a bolt to fly rearward you would need a forward force which would mean the bullet is leaving as well. It’s not just the weight of the casing. It is the weight of the bolt you would need to consider. With my limited knowledge of the Tokarev your theory seems plausible. The only part I have issue with is that it should be able to be replicated. Load a hot load and you should get the same affect. If you apply the same theory as you are proposing, couldn’t a hang fire give the same result with a hot load?

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by Cement Bench

he has an agenda he is a plant or a cop hired by feds to see how the gun community reacts for future legislation or interpretation of rules relating to self defense

he needs to be punted and revealed who he is

mods

Cement Bench

I concur CB. Very very eloquent, coincidence? Trojan horse comes to mind See you soon in CAMP bro

[catnthehat]

In the end all this analytical investigation from all the experts on here means zip of course, because all these experts were not there, had no part inn thee investigation, and most importantly had no part in the verdict!
Cat

[AndrewM]

Yes it means zip but there is never as issue with discussing opinions. There are no facts discussed as no one was there.

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

In order for a bolt to fly rearward you would need a forward force which would mean the bullet is leaving as well. It’s not just the weight of the casing. It is the weight of the bolt you would need to consider. With my limited knowledge of the Tokarev your theory seems plausible. The only part I have issue with is that it should be able to be replicated. Load a hot load and you should get the same affect. If you apply the same theory as you are proposing, couldn’t a hang fire give the same result with a hot load?

Not necessarily. When a bullet is fired, the bolt does not travel rearward because the bolt is locked to the barrel by the locking lugs. Remove the locking lugs from the equation by having the casing slightly out of the chamber and the bolt is no longer locked.

It requires a great deal of energy to make a bullet travel down a barrel through the locking lugs. I can assure you the bolt would be travelling rearward, as there is far less resistance. This is why semi-auto pistols and bolt action rifles have locking lugs.

Also, with the casing already partly out of the chamber, how much further does this tapered casing have to move rearward before all of the propellant gases escape past the casing? Perhaps one millimeter?

Sorry, that bullet is going nowhere, just like the hangfire theory.

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by RandyBoBandy

I concur CB. Very very eloquent, coincidence? Trojan horse comes to mind See you soon in CAMP bro

Actually, you are correct. I am an international spy and I am currently observing you through the lens on your laptop.

Better go find a piece of electrical tape to cover your lens with.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Traveller11

Not necessarily. When a bullet is fired, the bolt does not travel rearward because the bolt is locked to the barrel by the locking lugs. Remove the locking lugs from the equation by having the casing slightly out of the chamber and the bolt is no longer locked.

It requires a great deal of energy to make a bullet travel down a barrel through the locking lugs. I can assure you the bolt would be travelling rearward, as there is far less resistance. This is why semi-auto pistols and bolt action rifles have locking lugs.

Also, with the casing already partly out of the chamber, how much further does this tapered casing have to move rearward before all of the propellant gases escape past the casing? Perhaps one millimeter?

Sorry, that bullet is going nowhere, just like the hangfire theory.

Then why would too high of pressure cause the bolt to fly back and the bullet not to fly out as well? Pretty sure for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Can’t have force one way and not the other. Check out the video on the Ross rifle bolt on YouTube. I doubt that bullet stayed in the chamber.
https://youtu.be/EaSui_UqDX8

[BuckCuller]

Hammer hits pin.
Pin hits primer.
Primer goes off but does not ignite powder.
This sends bullet into lands and out of battery condition.
Pistol was carried muzzle down.
Reaching into truck angle of muzzle changes.
This puts some powder back in case.
Glowing ember in primer ignites powder.
BOOM.
Who knows? Not me because I wasn’t there.

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Then why would too high of pressure cause the bolt to fly back and the bullet to fly out as well? Pretty sure for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Can’t have force one way and not the other. Check out the video on the Ross rifle bolt on YouTube. I doubt that bullet stayed in the chamber.
https://youtu.be/EaSui_UqDX8

Yes, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. That is why semi-auto pistols and rifles have locking lugs on their bolts; to provide enough resistance to that reaction so the bolt does not travel in the opposite direction, and only the bullet travels.

You can easily move the bolt of a rifle or semi-auto pistol by hand. Can you force a bullet through a barrel by hand? If the reaction force is equal to the action force, and one runs into far greater resistance (ie. the riflings) which do you think will move?

AND, as I stated, that tapered casing only has to move 1 mm more out of the chamber and all of the propellant gases will escape. At that point, neither bullet nor bolt are going anywhere.

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Hammer hits pin.
Pin hits primer.
Primer goes off but does not ignite powder.
This sends bullet into lands and out of battery condition.
Pistol was carried muzzle down.
Reaching into truck angle of muzzle changes.
This puts some powder back in case.
Glowing ember in primer ignites powder.
BOOM.
Who knows? Not me because I wasn’t there.

How does that explain the bulged base of the casing?

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Traveller, you noted your theory on the cartridge being fired while fully chambered, but pulled back to fire-form the case without its signature bottleneck. My understanding of pressure (I'm a plumber so deal with it a lot) would lead me to think that after the bullet has left the cartridge and if the brass was being extracted a bit early at this point, then there would be roughly equal gas pressure on both sides of the case. Further to that, if it was still under such pressure I don't think extraction would be possible due to the case being temporarily expanded against the chamber walls. In this instance a hangfire does make sense to me: a light initial detonation (primer igniting) drives the bullet out of the case just into the barrel rifling and partially opens the action, then when the malfunctioning powder finally fully ignites the blowback of the action had already been initiated resulting in the malformed brass and a fatally wounded Colton Boushie.

Sorry, I just figured out what you meant by "there would be roughly equal gas pressure on both sides of the case".

I am assuming the casing would have begun to expand to meet the chamber walls, and would have completed its fire-forming expansion before the bullet actually left the casing. From my understanding of firearms, this must happen this way in order to provide a proper seal or propellant gases will escape between the casing and chamber walls.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by Traveller11

How does that explain the bulged base of the casing?

Squib.

Creates high pressure.

But truely I do not know because I have not had a similar failure.
Just speculating.

This just came to mind because I was talking to a guy that had a squib in a 223 from the primer not igniting the powder but lodged the bullet to the lands. I’m sure if the powder would have ignited there would have been some access pressure kind of the same as an under filled rifle case.

What is thought to happen with slow propellants and lots of void space within the cartridge is that they burn slowly, create vapor, and then eventually the vapor doesn’t ignite, but detonates.
KABOOM!

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Then why would too high of pressure cause the bolt to fly back and the bullet not to fly out as well? Pretty sure for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Can’t have force one way and not the other. Check out the video on the Ross rifle bolt on YouTube. I doubt that bullet stayed in the chamber.
https://youtu.be/EaSui_UqDX8

I just watched the video on the Ross rifle. True to legend, these were the fastest cycling rifles on the Western Front. German troops under assault by a company equipped with Ross rifles often assumed they were being attacked by several automatic weapons.

It is a pity the narrator never shared with us what became of the .303 bullet in those unlocked bolt experiments. Despite the .303 cartridge having more powder than a pistol cartridge, it is quite evident a great deal of the propellant gases escaped when the bolt went rearward.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Traveller11

I just watched the video on the Ross rifle. True to legend, these were the fastest cycling rifles on the Western Front. German troops under assault by a company equipped with Ross rifles often assumed they were being attacked by several automatic weapons.

It is a pity the narrator never shared with us what became of the .303 bullet in those unlocked bolt experiments. Despite the .303 cartridge having more powder than a pistol cartridge, it is quite evident a great deal of the propellant gases escaped when the bolt went rearward.

It’s a very cool video. Sad to see the old rifle get damaged like that though!

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

It’s a very cool video. Sad to see the old rifle get damaged like that though!

Here is something you might find interesting. Canada had a shortage of light machine guns in late WW I. A French Canadian tech by the name of Huot was able to convert a Ross rifle into a 25 round drum fed light machine gun but the war ended before mass production got up to speed.

Price of conversion in 1917 dollars - $50
Price of a new Lewis machine gun in 1917 dollars - $1000

And the converted Ross was 10 pounds lighter than the Lewis!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huot_Automatic_Rifle

[hogie]

What about a corrosion on the steel case? Steel case that has corrosion could have caused this. It would have a larger diameter that could cause it to seal. The ammo is proven faulty, firearm expert testified to this. Ammo was not stored properly and old. He had a blown out case that caused The gun to jamb in testing .

It's a freak accident but it is possible. Steel case and probably a steel jacket on the bullet if remember correct. If the had a steel case blow out that means the cases are weak. The bulge case doesn't appear to have a split at the neck. You would think that it should have split expanding.

Enough corrosion to stop case from extracting fully, maybe the primer pushed the bullet enough in the barrel and powder being a slow burn caused the case to expand enough for a seal? Enough that it allowed the bullet to exit.

Strange things happen. I have a garand that I reload for. I had a faulty round, primer indented but did not go bang, bullet seated in the barrel. I think neck tension problem with brass, the powder did not ignite. I use this powder in multiple calibers and have not had an issue. Unburned powder in the gun. I tumbled the brass in dry media. When I went to resized the case the powder had clumped in the case and stayed there. Tumbled for hours. Something happened to cause the powder to clump and not ignite. It stayed clumped. Bottom third of case was clumped powder. This is all newer components, nothing over 3 years old all stored properly. Reloads few months old.

Trying to duplicate this may never happen. I have a tt33 that has given firing problems, hangfire with surplus ammo. Lasted longer than half second. I don't shoot it anymore as I feel the gun is unsafe. Bullets do not go on target at all. I have tried new ammo and it is the same. I'm 5 feet from a target and it might hit paper 1 time. Old worn out gun.

[CaberTosser]

Traveller, with regards to the description of pressure of the cartridge case walls against the chamber, if there were no locking lugs or support behind the case I would envision two possibilities:

1: The rear of the case blowing apart due to the rest of it expanding & adhering to the chamber walls.

2: Due to the stationary momentum of the projectile the cartridge case might well be pushed backwards prior to it getting any purchase against the chamber wall and be blown straight out of the chamber.


Anyways, with regards to pressure comment it was to suggest that perhaps with a cartridge that is partly extracted when the contaminated powder charge ignites late, but where the bullet has already been pushed out by the primers ignition shortly beforehand, then the pressure might well have a chance to roughly equalize on the outside of the cases bottleneck and reduce the amount that this section of the case is expanded out. Purely theoretical, but I'd be curious if its possible. I'm sure it would be blown out to some extent regardless, but would any pressure that makes it to the other side of the case wall mitigate some of that expansion?

The other part of my notation on pressure is in regards to surface area: there is more surface area of the cases outside circumference than there is on the base, therefore more overall force would be applied there when it's being subjected to the pressure wave of the powder igniting. Same pressure, but more total force.

[ctd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEAr9TJ51M

watch at 1 min 12 seconds or so. Interesting, then watch the video again and watch the muzzle.

[ctd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVC_IsZwJfg

Watch this video till the end and pay attention to the muzzle.
You will notice that they cleared the action to the rear and lifted the feed tray cover. The gun fired at that point. The round fired out of the front, and the casing came out of the chamber.

It was mentioned earlier on another post that the round would not come out of the barrel if the base of the casing was not supported by the bolt and the bolt not in a locked position. this proves that statement incorrect in this situation.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Traveller, with regards to the description of pressure of the cartridge case walls against the chamber, if there were no locking lugs or support behind the case I would envision two possibilities:

1: The rear of the case blowing apart due to the rest of it expanding & adhering to the chamber walls.

2: Due to the stationary momentum of the projectile the cartridge case might well be pushed backwards prior to it getting any purchase against the chamber wall and be blown straight out of the chamber.


Anyways, with regards to pressure comment it was to suggest that perhaps with a cartridge that is partly extracted when the contaminated powder charge ignites late, but where the bullet has already been pushed out by the primers ignition shortly beforehand, then the pressure might well have a chance to roughly equalize on the outside of the cases bottleneck and reduce the amount that this section of the case is expanded out. Purely theoretical, but I'd be curious if its possible. I'm sure it would be blown out to some extent regardless, but would any pressure that makes it to the other side of the case wall mitigate some of that expansion?

The other part of my notation on pressure is in regards to surface area: there is more surface area of the cases outside circumference than there is on the base, therefore more overall force would be applied there when it's being subjected to the pressure wave of the powder igniting. Same pressure, but more total force.

Seems like the likely scenario to me. We are also not privy to what shape the barrel is in, there may not be much resistance at all if the lands are washed out, throat eroded or corroded, etc. Perfect example is revolvers which have a space, often large between the cylinder and the barrel where gas can escape yet the bullet manages to engage lands, swage down, travel the barrel and exit. It really doesn't take a lot of pressure to drive a bullet through a barrel.

[AndrewM]

Here is a beauty of an example:
https://youtu.be/TFCjFYSZHRg

[6.5 shooter]

My 2 cents... the gun went click...in the heat of the moment he racked the slide to cycle in another round......Round fired...bulged case....

[Gifted Intuitive]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Well that sounds rather accurate, though I might make exception for the wound angle theory, based on the fact that during a physical altercation Stanley's hand and the pistol might have been in any number of unnatural positions & angles. I won't say the position theory is without merit, merely the "only possible" wording as many weird physical positions occur during a fight.

The Stanley's would have wanted to have this vehicle removed from their yard. Phoning to have a tow truck remove the vehicle would not get a response. Waiting for the occupants of the vehicle to have help arrive could take days. During this period the duration of theft could be days. The Stanley's would have to tow the vehicle. The keys would have to be removed from the vehicle to safely implement a connection for towing.
If a vehicle arrives in your yard and the vehicle is operable you can ask them to leave and if there is not compliance you can take pictures and the RCMP can respond with a trespassing charge. If the vehicle arrives with a flat tire then a trespass to commit crimes can be disguised as a trespass for help. Residents in this area comment on seeing flat tires being installed on vehicles, or spark plug wires being disconnected.

Canada’s most dangerous place, North Battleford, is ...
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http://panow.com/article/725442/loca...rth-battleford


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Battlefords RCMP have confirmed the ongoing recent violence in North Battleford is due to factions of regional gangs targeting each other for various reasons, and are ...

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Here is a beauty of an example:
https://youtu.be/TFCjFYSZHRg

Very interesting video, Andrew. I am especially intrigued by the tiny flash coming out of the muzzle when the hangfire occurred. If the bullet was still seated in the casing, where did this flash come from? Are we perhaps seeing the results of a punctured primer, and part of the flash escaped forward through the gap between cartridge and chamber?

It's a shame the narrator didn't show us the empty casing from this hangfire, to see if the primer had been punctured. Or, if the casing had been bulged out at the base, although I doubt this would have happened with a punctured primer as the gas pressure had a means of escaping.

[Traveller11]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Traveller, with regards to the description of pressure of the cartridge case walls against the chamber, if there were no locking lugs or support behind the case I would envision two possibilities:

1: The rear of the case blowing apart due to the rest of it expanding & adhering to the chamber walls.

2: Due to the stationary momentum of the projectile the cartridge case might well be pushed backwards prior to it getting any purchase against the chamber wall and be blown straight out of the chamber.


Anyways, with regards to pressure comment it was to suggest that perhaps with a cartridge that is partly extracted when the contaminated powder charge ignites late, but where the bullet has already been pushed out by the primers ignition shortly beforehand, then the pressure might well have a chance to roughly equalize on the outside of the cases bottleneck and reduce the amount that this section of the case is expanded out. Purely theoretical, but I'd be curious if its possible. I'm sure it would be blown out to some extent regardless, but would any pressure that makes it to the other side of the case wall mitigate some of that expansion?

The other part of my notation on pressure is in regards to surface area: there is more surface area of the cases outside circumference than there is on the base, therefore more overall force would be applied there when it's being subjected to the pressure wave of the powder igniting. Same pressure, but more total force.

You make a very good point about the bottleneck of the Tokarev casing, and this is something that has troubled me as well. I am almost grateful the Tokarev is not a straight walled cartridge, as the final shape of the 3rd casing tells us a great deal about what occurred.

The very fact that the bottleneck is swollen out to the larger diameter of the rest of the casing, for the reason you pointed out, tells us the bottleneck, or at the very least the tip of it, was still in contact with its portion of the chamber when the gunpowder ignited, and acted as a seal that allowed the pressure to act only on the inside of the bottleneck; swelling it out to the larger diameter.

Of course, though, this could also be a casing that had done the majority of its fire forming prior to peak chamber pressure and, due to defective locking lugs, the barrel and bolt separated and allowed the casing to move slightly out of the chamber while pressures were still elevated. As the bottleneck slid rearward, it would continue to expand outward.