Do solar panels on houses pay?

[NCC]

I recently received a quote to install solar panels on my roof for about $25k. The installer claims a 7.5 year payback (with the $5k rebate from the feds) and then a $40k profit over the remaining ~18 year lifespan of the panels. I live 60km west of Red Deer and my power bills last year were around $5-600/month.

Does anyone have any real world experience with solar installs and selling back to the grid?

I'm a solar skeptic for this part of the world but maybe it make sense over a 12 month average.

[3blade]

A friend did it when all the rebates first started.

Took several years longer to pay back than he thought, had some maintenance costs, and now looking at upcoming replacement or removal not long after finally turning a profit. Big ol hassle. He regretted it.

This was in st Albert though. Dunno about the weather you get there. I’ve heard others say if you are south of cow town it works out better, but that’s all third hand info.

[W921]

Originally Posted by NCC

I recently received a quote to install solar panels on my roof for about $25k. The installer claims a 7.5 year payback (with the $5k rebate from the feds) and then a $40k profit over the remaining ~18 year lifespan of the panels. I live 60km west of Red Deer and my power bills last year were around $5-600/month.

Does anyone have any real world experience with solar installs and selling back to the grid?

I'm a solar skeptic for this part of the world but maybe it make sense over a 12 month average.

I think you will notice that most of your power bill is for service charges. Not for power. You still will have all the service charges every month.
I'm farm and I could get all kinds of government money and it still wouldn't pay me. Been a while since I looked into it.
If I was a big irrigation outfit or hutterite colony it might pay but even with government paying say half I would still probably have to spend a hundred grand in the hope of breaking even fifteen years from now

[Coiloil37]

You would have to do the math based on what they’re paying you per kw/h and how big the system is. Keep in mind you need decent sun to get what the system is rated for and Alberta doesn’t have much decent sun, especially in the winter. Even in the summer when a cloud rolls past the sun the output will drop to about 25% of what it’s rated for.
Additionally, for the % of an Alberta power bill that is “fees” vs the cost per kw/h for actual energy I can’t see it being cost effective although I haven’t paid a power bill there for nearly five years and maybe they’re charging a lot now per kw/h or paying you a lot per kw. When I left the actual power used was the cheapest part of the bill.

To contrast other countries where IMO solar makes sense I’ll tell you that here we pay per kw/h and there are no other fees. The kicker is that power per kw/h is more expensive but if you don’t use any you don’t pay anything. We have a small 5.5kw system that will pump about 5200 watts an hour for most of the day in full sun. It services the house first and then sells to the grid and they pay me $.08/kw/h. The whole house is electric and the air con runs most of the year, we pay no attention to how much power we use and most bills are ~$75-90/month. I’ve never seen one over $100.
Ours was on the house when we got here but now I see them advertise a 7kw system installed for $3999.00 and the gov rebates most of that back. A guy I fish with has a 13.5 kw system and he gets no bill and has a couple thousand dollar credit with the power company.

[esher]

There is the problem, you get .08 cents back ?

[Drewski Canuck]

Friend has a cabin that he lives at 6 months of the year. His solar panels are creating a "surplus" that he cannot cash out or transfer. All winter his place is on minimum heat and little power use, and that is where the surplus comes from, otherwise there would be no surplus at all.

In Saskatchewan, Saskpower will take the wattage but will not pay you anything for it as they have "enough power already".

Most installs do not pay for themselves ever. Grant or no Grant.

I suspect that the industry is making big profits from the hardware and install.

Drewski

[Sundancefisher]

If your power costs are very high and the payout calculations work and you see yourself living there a long time and/or if you sold you would see a bump in value and you have $25K in hand and not a loan at current rates… thrn

It could work for you.

Curious what factor they have applied for power loss over time as parts get older etc.

Also what the cost would be to take off the panels and repair a roof and re-install. Excluding the cost of roofing… what does the company charge to uninstall and reinstall if say you had a large hail storm.

You also must ensure there are no spaces under the panels and above the roof that can hold bird feces. Eat a roof fast.

Question for you. Do you have room to install ground based panels in a spot that if it worked you could expand. Are you allowed to or only on a roof?

Do you need to clean dust, dirt, bird droppings, ash etc off the roof to maximize power? Where they would be located… is there a risk of snow sliding off and damaging property or hurting someone?

[lakerman]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Friend has a cabin that he lives at 6 months of the year. His solar panels are creating a "surplus" that he cannot cash out or transfer. All winter his place is on minimum heat and little power use, and that is where the surplus comes from, otherwise there would be no surplus at all.

In Saskatchewan, Saskpower will take the wattage but will not pay you anything for it as they have "enough power already".

Most installs do not pay for themselves ever. Grant or no Grant.

I suspect that the industry is making big profits from the hardware and install.

Drewski

While in Sask this summer, Sask power reports a 170 million loss, record demand for power last week, they could be buying from their own people too, but no they'll take the power and increase everyones fees, system doesn;t help the average Joe, subsidies wouldn't be needed and people might jump on ship if the solar fiaso actually paid out.Wabamun sailing club just did the whole roof, dude said they could monitor every panel and see the amount of usb chargers charging, seemed like a sophisticated system put in by a memeber. Some companies can slap together a system, house on the street has a system with trees casting shadows all day?

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by W921

I think you will notice that most of your power bill is for service charges. Not for power. You still will have all the service charges every month.

This is not true anymore, any unused power is sold back to the company and can be used towards fees.

A couple things to note, they base your solar panel sizing off your power usage, so if you plan on doing it, plug everything in and use as much electricity as possible for a few months. Apparently you can't oversize the panel array unless it is required to power you house.

Do u ever plan on getting an EV? You can't size your panels on possible future usage.

Also, make sure you replace your roof shingles prior to placing your panels.

Just to be clear, i still don't think its worthwhile.

Off-grid or possibly a brand new build is the only time I'd consider it.

[Cement Bench]

was it Medicine Hat that lost 13 million in a failed solar panel fiasco a few years ago

NO


NO. and still NO

dentist and,his bestie wanted solar panels and a new f150 electric

helped him do the mat and the DOWNSIDE RISK COST when the so called best case estimates are wrong and to replace the solar back to original and he was shocked as he never checked the math and knew nothing about the monthly distribution fees

same with his electric pickup stupid idea

told him to rent his buddies truck ever time they went to the lake for 100 bucks to offset his buddies cost and put the other 90 grand in his pocket and pay off his mortgage with the solar and ford monies

we are now better friends but no discount on dental work, mmmmmmm

[Drewski Canuck]

Originally Posted by Cement Bench

was it Medicine Hat that lost 13 million in a failed solar panel fiasco a few years ago

NO


NO. and still NO

dentist and,his bestie wanted solar panels and a new f150 electric

helped him do the mat and the DOWNSIDE RISK COST when the so called best case estimates are wrong and to replace the solar back to original and he was shocked as he never checked the math and knew nothing about the monthly distribution fees

same with his electric pickup stupid idea

told him to rent his buddies truck ever time they went to the lake for 100 bucks to offset his buddies cost and put the other 90 grand in his pocket and pay off his mortgage with the solar and ford monies

we are now better friends but no discount on dental work, mmmmmmm

Some people simply can't be reasoned with and want to stay in "fashion". Kind of reminds me of the Simpsons episode where the Town builds a Monorail.

Alot of stupid going around these days Brother!!!

Drewski

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Cement Bench

was it Medicine Hat that lost 13 million in a failed solar panel fiasco a few years ago

Just for the sake of accuracy, that was not a Solar Electric Panel project. They were water heaters.

[mryimmers]

Personally I would never put them on my roof, can't help but think I would regret it eventually.
Some kind of ground mount where you can easily get to them.

[W921]

Originally Posted by JB_AOL

This is not true anymore, any unused power is sold back to the company and can be used towards fees.

A couple things to note, they base your solar panel sizing off your power usage, so if you plan on doing it, plug everything in and use as much electricity as possible for a few months. Apparently you can't oversize the panel array unless it is required to power you house.

Do u ever plan on getting an EV? You can't size your panels on possible future usage.

Also, make sure you replace your roof shingles prior to placing your panels.

Just to be clear, i still don't think its worthwhile.

Off-grid or possibly a brand new build is the only time I'd consider it.

I wanted to be off grid but the MD would not let me build a new house without being on the grid. So all this liberal guilt is crap. They force me to be on grid and spend all my money to do it but after I spend all my money on getting power lines and furnace and everything wired and piped up to be on grid to meet my building permit requirements now I have the option of not using the grid and spending more money on off grid stuff to tho off grid.
Another problem for me is when I really need a lot not power is in the winter when we get these minus twenty or more cold snaps. Plugging in trucks ,equipment and keeping cattle drinkers from freezing. When I need it the most there really isn't any sun or wind

[wallz]

My boss built an off grip cabin last year, and had to add solar for power.

Don't know what he all spend on the system, but it was not cheap. He built up two panel arrays that he can rotate with the sun for maximum solar gain.

In the summer he has extra power that he can't use, and in the winter time,..... well he has a backup generator on propane that has to kick in every few days to power his lithium cells back up.

[lmtada]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Friend has a cabin that he lives at 6 months of the year. His solar panels are creating a "surplus" that he cannot cash out or transfer. All winter his place is on minimum heat and little power use, and that is where the surplus comes from, otherwise there would be no surplus at all.

In Saskatchewan, Saskpower will take the wattage but will not pay you anything for it as they have "enough power already".

Most installs do not pay for themselves ever. Grant or no Grant.

I suspect that the industry is making big profits from the hardware and install.


Drewski

Yup. Simple answer is no. Not even close. We purchased 3.5KW system back in 2007. ($32,000.00). Hasn’t even paid off the first 25% of the investment. Now panels are at least 50% less than our outlay. No, the grid tie system is a farce. Never ending price increases to be on the grid. All the extra costs, keep going up every six months. When we did install there was no rebates. Sum it up, wasn’t one on my best investments, maybe one of my worst investments.

[ehrgeiz]

I haven't researched this, but I had heard from someone that you may have insurance difficulties with solar panel installations. Something about the fire department having to modify their suppression approach and even let the structure burn down (assuming roof mounted).

Could be total BS, but sounds plausible, probably shouldn't repeat it without knowing but I did. Maybe someone with an installation can comment further on if they disclosed it to their insurance company and if it had any premium escalation?

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by lmtada

We purchased 3.5KW system back in 2007. ($32,000.00). Hasn’t even paid off the first 25% of the investment. Now panels are at least 50% less than our outlay.

That’s brutal, even if they are half that price now.

[lmtada]

Originally Posted by ehrgeiz

I haven't researched this, but I had heard from someone that you may have insurance difficulties with solar panel installations. Something about the fire department having to modify their suppression approach and even let the structure burn down (assuming roof mounted).

Could be total BS, but sounds plausible, probably shouldn't repeat it without knowing but I did. Maybe someone with an installation can comment further on if they disclosed it to their insurance company and if it had any premium escalation?

I believe you are correct. After watching a home burn down. The firefighters ripped a roof access for the roof fire. Then ladder truck had hoses attached and was raised above the blaze, then flooded the house with water from the top side. Therefore had there been roof solar panels, would made this a difficult process.

[prinny53]

Originally Posted by lmtada

Yup. Simple answer is no. Not even close. We purchased 3.5KW system back in 2007. ($32,000.00). Hasn’t even paid off the first 25% of the investment. Now panels are at least 50% less than our outlay. No, the grid tie system is a farce. Never ending price increases to be on the grid. All the extra costs, keep going up every six months. When we did install there was no rebates. Sum it up, wasn’t one on my best investments, maybe one of my worst investments.

So you have to pay to get your generated power to the grid? What sort of fee's do you have to pay?

[lmtada]

Originally Posted by prinny53

So you have to pay to get your generated power to the grid? What sort of fee's do you have to pay?

Look at your power bill. How it separates transmission costs, management fees, and actual kWh charges. There are approx 4, 5 charges. Actual used power is the cheapest (kwh). Rest fee’s increasing exponentially since 2007. Seriously thinking adding more panels, and going off grid with batteries. Best, cheapest is not to go with solar systems. We don’t use much power, so that is where you first need to make reductions (your own personal usage) via more efficient tools,etc.

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by mryimmers

Personally I would never put them on my roof, can't help but think I would regret it eventually.
Some kind of ground mount where you can easily get to them.

^this. Sure, they say they have a “lifetime warranty” yeah right, lifetime of the fly by night company that installs them. Won’t touch them till there’s some sort of a contingency fund collected by the province (paid into by installers) to pay for roof repairs as a result of crappy installation or fastener failures (water damage). Hard NO. You take all the risk for a very slow ROI if any down the road. The panels degrade over time (performance wise) and eventually need replacement or disposal.

[pittman]

I recall reading an article about solar panels a few years ago. It was a big deal that they had just become efficient and reliable enough and easy enough to produce that over the lifetime of the solar panel they would harness more power than it took to produce them.

Think on that for a second.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by I’d rather be outdoors

^this. Sure, they say they have a “lifetime warranty” yeah right, lifetime of the fly by night company that installs them. Won’t touch them till there’s some sort of a contingency fund collected by the province (paid into by installers) to pay for roof repairs as a result of crappy installation or fastener failures (water damage). Hard NO. You take all the risk for a very slow ROI if any down the road. The panels degrade over time (performance wise) and eventually need replacement or disposal.

One of the reasons the province is putting a hold on large scale solar development is a fear expressed by land owners that they will be stuck with remediation costs at the end of their lease.

Grizz

[W921]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

One of the reasons the province is putting a hold on large scale solar development is a fear expressed by land owners that they will be stuck with remediation costs at the end of their lease.

Grizz

I'm surrounded by these so called solar farms. The MD has development laws against everything but they seem to love these solar outfit's. ****es me off how they call them farms.
When a fire comes through they definitely have the fire departments priority
Anyway I think the one next to me has changed ownership about three times in last six years. No way it will ever be put back to farm land. Cost a fortune. When time comes to do it the company will be bankrupt and long gone.
During cold snaps in winter the panels so far have always been covered in snow.

[lmtada]

Originally Posted by I’d rather be outdoors

^this. Sure, they say they have a “lifetime warranty” yeah right, lifetime of the fly by night company that installs them. Won’t touch them till there’s some sort of a contingency fund collected by the province (paid into by installers) to pay for roof repairs as a result of crappy installation or fastener failures (water damage). Hard NO. You take all the risk for a very slow ROI if any down the road. The panels degrade over time (performance wise) and eventually need replacement or disposal.

Don’t agree with panels performance degradation. Our panels performed exactly producing same power at 15 years as with new. Solid German design, so far zero issues.

[NCC]

Thanks for all of the advice so far. I was expecting some dissenters but not 100% of posters against the idea. I'm definitely having second thoughts about the install in general and certainly not putting them on the roof of the house now. Hearing that those who have bought power would never do it again also carries a lot of weight, and it needs to make financial and environmental sense as the social justice points mean nothing to me.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Thanks for starting this thread, NCC.

I have a neighbour who bought in to a solar panel install, I think he was eligible for about 40K in interest-free loands from the gov't and figures it should pay for itself, taking into consideration his family's average power usage.

He had his shingles redone first, which was a good idea. I'm assuming the panels will be installed in the next month or so.

The company came to our house as well, since we have excellent sun exposure. But other things are a priority now, and frankly, I'm still a solar skeptic to a certain degree.

It has a ways to go, IMO. It's funny when I mention that to some people, and they say the same thing when I say I don't buy Hyundai and Kia: "Oh, but I hear that they are much better now!"

(...no offence to Hyundai and Kia owners here on the forum...)

I wouldn't hesitate to use Solar for off-grid stuff, though.