crossbow season?

[baldeagle]

Hi,

just joining this discussion. Regarding more hunters = less opportunity for bow hunters: What if the number of traditional and compound bow hunters were to surge over the next few years? Russ, do you truly think that your equation would not apply in this case?

As well, we had an antlerless elk quota RIFLE hunt in a part of 212, and do you know why? Because there aren't enough successful bow hunters around to take care of the ever-increasing herds down here (and no, it's not the problem with access to private land). The crossbow would make a fine tool here, allowing especially older fellow hunters (who cannot hold a 70-pound longbow at full draw anymore) to still enjoy what they've done for many years.

I'm not a crossbow bigot; I use all of compound, rifle, and shotgun (sabots) for big game, an a nice recurve is on my shopping list (I haven't hunted all my life, so I'm working my way up from the easy to the more challenging). What I am looking for is a balanced approach that gives everybody the choice of tool that they prefer - without anybody telling everybody else what they can and cannot do.

And another point of discussion: There is fair number of whitetails around where I live, and every fall I see several (!!!) wounded ones limping around until the coyotes get them - I guess that has to do with accuracy and practice, so I don't find anything wrong with a tool that may improve accuracy.

[baldeagle]

ah, yes, one more thing: Rigged polls and the like.

I put forward the Okotoks motion at last year's AFGA conference to allow the crossbow. The membership present was so closely divided on the issue 50-50 that they had to count twice. The most disappointing and, to be honest, ridiculous argument against the general use of crossbows by hunters age 65 and older was "Why should those seniors have an advantage over us?". Talk about sportsmanship. I guess the guy in question must have found everlasting youth (or he still needs to find it in his heart to look beyond his own personal interests).

[russ]

Originally Posted by baldeagle

Hi,

just joining this discussion. Regarding more hunters = less opportunity for bow hunters: What if the number of traditional and compound bow hunters were to surge over the next few years? Russ, do you truly think that your equation would not apply in this case?

It does, that's a reality I accept. What I don't accept is the argument that the crossbow will increase overall hunter numbers. The evidence from the Southern US is that the x-bow hunters increased BUT the rifle hunters decreased with no NET increase. Why? Because there were no NEW hunters. Did adding crossbow into the general season add any NEW hunters? I doubt it, all it did was add a new tool for everyone to enjoy during the general & primitive weapons season.

Originally Posted by baldeagle

As well, we had an antlerless elk quota RIFLE hunt in a part of 212, and do you know why? Because there aren't enough successful bow hunters around to take care of the ever-increasing herds down here (and no, it's not the problem with access to private land). The crossbow would make a fine tool here, allowing especially older fellow hunters (who cannot hold a 70-pound longbow at full draw anymore) to still enjoy what they've done for many years.

You know full well that there is an issue of ACCESS to land NOT success of the weapon. We've been back and forth with SRD on this one for years. Furthermore, I think it's curious you mention 70lbs as a draw weight for 65 year olds. I've been hunting successfully for 10 years with a bow set between 57-60 lbs. And frankly there's a reason why it's legal to hunt with a 40 lb. recurve in this province. It's because it's all you really need.

[Stinky Coyote]

It does, that's a reality I accept. What I don't accept is the argument that the crossbow will increase overall hunter numbers. The evidence from the Southern US is that the x-bow hunters increased BUT the rifle hunters decreased with no NET increase. Why? Because there were no NEW hunters. Did adding crossbow into the general season add any NEW hunters? I doubt it, all it did was add a new tool for everyone to enjoy during the general & primitive weapons season.

So why are you not fighting to have it included then? Or are you now? I'm confused Russ i thought you were fighting it???...

Pretty sure you just said what lots of us have been saying for awhile now?...

all it did was add a new tool for everyone to enjoy during the general & primitive weapons season.

unless there is something wrong with that Russ?...is there?


Glad were on the same team again.

So when can we expect the ABA to join you in this?

[russ]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Glad were on the same team again.

Clearly you're reading things into my post. I was responding to the comment by baldeagle the "WHAT IF" the harvest numbers were to go up for compound and traditional hunters. If that happens, then I have to accept that.

I am NOT nor will I ever be in favour of crossbows in the same season as archery equipment.

[nekred]

Russ, your posts are confusing and contradict themselves.

Here is what i see.

Point #1)
In the end the reason for preventing draw lock devices in archery seasons is that the draw lock device is not in the spirit of archery hunting as conceived by the ABA when it originally lobbied for hunting seasons. This is enshrined in the constitution, ratified by membership, and continually affirmed.

Point #2)
If draw lock devices were allowed in the archery season, many people who currently hunt with a rifle in the General Season, would use a draw lock device which takes less time to become proficient with on average than a bow without a draw lock device. Then the number of people utilising the season would increase along with the harvest of animals in the archery season reducing opportunities in general season. This would result in managment controls being placed on archery season.

The comparisons to the US often are invalid. First of all their whitetail density is higher than ours. In most states they have an archery season and a rifle season. You are not allowed to use a bow in rifle season. Rather than adding another season for the crossbow hunters they allowed them to utilise the archery season.

People who want to be able to utilise draw lock devices outside of general season, should form their own association, lobby for their own seasons and get it done like the ABA did for archery season.

The crossbow has been around for thousands of years and ABA chose not to add them because of the will of their membership. This is still the case. trying to force the ABA to change their fundamental beliefs is futile. The idea of a utilising a draw lock is not in the ideals of the ABA, enshrined by the constitution and ratified by the membership.

Start the Alberta x-bow association. See how many people who are willing to talk about this issue are willing to get involved and tht will show that this whole idea is guided by self interest. Instead of arguing with me, do this and prove me wrong!.

Good Luck!

[Chung66]

Isn't 70% letoff cams and trigger-like releases on compunds the same as a draw lock?

You can hold a draw indefinitly.

[blades]

anyone had a chance to playwith the compounds that have 99% let-off? Nice to hold once they cam-over....should we not let them into archery season? Seems to me, the line is getting mighty thin....

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by blades

Seems to me, the line is getting mighty thin....

To a rifle hunter reading this thread, the line appears non-existant. like having different elk seasons for those with .270's versus those with .300 WM. I know, I know, I can't see all the finer technical differences... I'm just sayin'.... LOL

[CNP]

Originally Posted by Chung66

Isn't 70% letoff cams and trigger-like releases on compunds the same as a draw lock?

You can hold a draw indefinitly.

uhhhhhhhhhhh. NO and NO.

[nekred]

Funny how no-one responded to my comment about a crossbow association.

Self interest is very evident. Why don't you do it to try and prove the ABA wrong that there would be no effect on the season.

The ABA and archery seasons were started by people who chose to take an unnecessary handicap to improve their enjoyment.

The majority of people who get into bowhunting today are willing to take the handicap for improved opportunity. I was one of these!

[nekred]

If the 99% letoff bows were so good why do we not see more of them?

[Stinky Coyote]

No one responded because they don't check this thread that often i guess. But here i go...yeah...lets start a bunch of new associations for just the crossbow....does that sound like a good idea? When the archery tackle and seasons are already there. If the compound fought its way in then it should be a pretty easy one for the crossbow...why is humanity so slow to learn from its history when in large groups??? I went for the extra opportunity/seasons/challenge too...still would have if the crossbow was part of it and i bet i would still shoot a compound anyhow....its got the cool factor over the crossbow forsure.

It fits with the rest of the bows...why wouldn't other bow outfits and all hunters period not want the extra tool? God knows we have enough powder burner options...all the powder burner options as far as i can tell are good to go aside from some minimum power requirements...from muzzle loaders to shotguns to centerfire from very short range to extreme long range...but recurve and compound only allowed together and the crossbow has to hang with the powder burners? With todays knowledge? God.....is it time to get with the times or what?

I only keep argueing this because it makes sense. Thats it. Doesn't affect me in the least the outcome as i'll be able to bowhunt with my compound gear for a long long time...thinking about the new mathews dxt as we speak as a matter of fact.....it just makes sense. Ruled by the hardcore....brutal. Takes some to get some. This is 2008 already...you know...modern times???? Wtf?

Lol, to think we are so stuck in the past is almost sickening. We all got time to start new associations for this that and the next. I have time for a bit of internet dinkin around so here's all i can do....but why is it that it has to be so hard to make something happen that would be easy and soooooo obvious....like i said....its close to 2010.......and we still move and act like its 1969....terrible. I'm into way more than just archery, got the family thing going now, got a serious addiction to all hunting gear from bows to guns and everything in between. Sorry i don't have time to start a stupid association for just a crossbow inclusion but i've just got better things to do and i hope everyone else does too.

Why not, lets deny the obvious just because we love to hold back progress as much as possible...its human nature isn't it. Can't do anything that makes sense without a big ole fight about it can we?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by russ

I am NOT nor will I ever be in favour of crossbows in the same season as archery equipment.

Omg, i would laugh my azz off if a big group got together on that and took half your season because of it. You get september, then the crossbow guys get October. Wouldn't hurt me, i'd get a tool for all the seasons.

How stupid.

Total waste to have to go that route....a tiny bit of open mind for all of hunting instead of the narrow sighted selfishness and it could be easy.

Just put the friggin thing where it fits and be done with it....what a joke.

Its okay to evolve you know. Its how your compound got in your hands in the first place.

[nekred]

The difference is that a crossbow was available when the archery season were first formed in Alberta and the decision then was to exclude them from archery seasons. Compound bows came along later and many arguments later they were accepted.

Nothing wrong with an association that lobbied for what they have and sticking to their original principles as decided by the membership.

One other thing when archery seasons were lobbied for bows were not allowed in any season. Crossbows have been included in the general season.

My only point here is to clarify that it is the will of the membership of the ABA that crossbows not be included in the archery seasons that are the result of the associations hard work and effort.

Forming a crossbow association is probably the alternative that would bring the most results, with far less conflict.

[Stinky Coyote]

That makes most sense to you? In light of all the evidence from all the other parts of the continent that have seen the light?

That association can't get with the times and evolve to better serve hunting period? I can see their membership growing like a weed with that old school philosophy . Do they not recognize what year it is? Progress people...lets do it already!

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by russ

I am NOT nor will I ever be in favour of crossbows in the same season as archery equipment.

I'm with ya Russ. I don't even think bow hunters should get a separate season. Bow, crossbow, rifle, slingshot, whatever. Everyone hunt the same time. No extra season because you decide to handicap yourself. Come on out and take your chances LOL

[Stinky Coyote]

You have the right attitude on it Okotoky!

[blades]

Originally Posted by nekred

Funny how no-one responded to my comment about a crossbow association.

Now that this question was dealt with.....and I agree with those opinions.....would you or russ be willing to answer my 2 questions from my previous post?

'I was wondering about the votes the ABA has with the membership on the crossbow issue.....what information(and the source) is the membership using as a guide to come to an informed decision? The reason I ask, is I have talked with quite a few ABA members, and they were indifferent, or had a positive reaction to the crossbow.
Also, just for information, do you know what the current membership of the ABA is?'

[blades]

Oh, and just FYI to everyone.....of the people I have personally talked with on this subject, and I have talked to ALOT of people, my estimated guess on the number of people that are for, or indifferent to, the crossbow, vs the number of people against would have to be around 100 to 1. I find that after I have presented my crossbow information seminar, I usually get 1 or 2 people coming to me saying something like 'that is not what I thought it was', or 'I still would not use one, but I don't see a problem with them(crossbows) being included as archery tackle'.
This has been my experience and the reason why I asked my 2 questions.

Originally Posted by russ

It does, that's a reality I accept. What I don't accept is the argument that the crossbow will increase overall hunter numbers. The evidence from the Southern US is that the x-bow hunters increased BUT the rifle hunters decreased with no NET increase. Why? Because there were no NEW hunters. Did adding crossbow into the general season add any NEW hunters? I doubt it, all it did was add a new tool for everyone to enjoy during the general & primitive weapons season.



You know full well that there is an issue of ACCESS to land NOT success of the weapon. We've been back and forth with SRD on this one for years. Furthermore, I think it's curious you mention 70lbs as a draw weight for 65 year olds. I've been hunting successfully for 10 years with a bow set between 57-60 lbs. And frankly there's a reason why it's legal to hunt with a 40 lb. recurve in this province. It's because it's all you really need.

There's no arguing that it would increase hunter numbers slightly but I agree that numbrers would not be huge but more importantly, it would get hunters spending more days in the field enjoying more opportunities which can't be a bad thing can it?

[CNP]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

That makes most sense to you? In light of all the evidence from all the other parts of the continent that have seen the light?

That association can't get with the times and evolve to better serve hunting period? I can see their membership growing like a weed with that old school philosophy . Do they not recognize what year it is? Progress people...lets do it already!

What "evidence" and what "light" are you referring to? Click here.

[Stinky Coyote]

The light being the inclusion of a like tool with the rest.

The evidence of how little difference it makes when its included....do we all really have to go google it up again? Really?

Nice chart btw...a good start by the looks of it. I love the white blocks....'heavily restricted'.....lol....yeah...there's something that needs heavy restriction alright.

[blades]

I don't think I would 100% trust the info on the Hunters Friend site,.....that map is goofy and does not correspond with other info on the site.....the most blatent error is the catagory BC was put in, illegal status, when in fact it is legal in archery there. Just my observation.

[Stinky Coyote]

Thats a big one to miss alright! Wonder how many others are missed?

[CNP]

the most blatent error is the catagory BC was put in, illegal status, when in fact it is legal in archery there. Just my observation.

The map is in error HOWEVER look at the profiles of each State and Province below the map. It indicates BC is legal.

The light being the inclusion of a like tool with the rest.

The evidence of how little difference it makes when its included....do we all really have to go google it up again? Really?

Nice chart btw...a good start by the looks of it. I love the white blocks....'heavily restricted'.....lol....yeah...there's something that needs heavy restriction alright.

I included the link to dispute your statements that AB is lagging behind other jurisdictions, when in fact it is not. AB is with the majority of jurisdictions in that it does not allow unrestricted crossbow use. Just thought that this particular issue needed some truth and light light shone on it.

[blades]

i would still double check any info from that site....one big contradiction leads to....well, what else about the site is unreliable? Do you trust anyone who lied to you once?

[Stinky Coyote]

Yeah, its a movement....not everyone is doing it yet.....'yet'. We still had slavery not too long ago...but hey...we learned our way past that.....we 'evolved' past that. I like modern times, education comes fast now....so should change that makes sense due to the education.....why not?

The tool (crossbow) is being educated and is gaining ground now. And so it should be. Wanna dig up all the harvest stat info of before/after inclusions again? Does that really need to happen again or can we all just go from memory from having done it a few times already? The difference is so small that it is moot...so lets not waste too much extra time on it okay. So....its a bow. By all harvest stat info etc. its a bow. So lets go already...lets not be last province/state to do this because we're stuck in the past. Its a pretty modern and thriving province imo so why can't our hunting stuff be there too? Why waste time...life is short? Ya ya...people don't like change...even if it makes sense....might as well fight it....cuz it must be a terrible thing.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by blades

i would still double check any info from that site....one big contradiction leads to....well, what else about the site is unreliable? Do you trust anyone who lied to you once?

It is not a site dedicated to the eradication of the crossbow. They sell crossbows lol. It would only be in their interest to promote lies in favor of crossbows. Why get all twisted up about it.................everbody lies and thats the truth...............and what you consider to be a lie...........isn't really a lie...........it's mis-communication.......it states further down in the profile for BC that crossbows are legal.

[nekred]

2000 members
Vote was unanimous at 2007 AGM...

Now here are my 2 questions, Blades,
Do you sell crossbows?
Are you a distributor?

What is your dog in this fight?