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  #61  
Old 10-21-2020, 11:03 PM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
So why not in the regulations and signage make Police Outpost Lake off limits on ice and only open to the public when open water.

Anyone on the ice will be trespassing. Sign accordingly. If really pushed see what insurance would cost however there should be a way to legislate public responsibility for personal stupidity.

What legislation could be applied, on which access was determined on whether water is in a frozen or liquid state?
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  #62  
Old 10-21-2020, 11:12 PM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Talli....
In the years since the winterkill of 2017, All three strains of Trout Lodge AF3N fish were stocked. Jumper, Kamloops and Silvers. All are AF3N.

Brood stock from the eggs bought from Trout Lodge are sterile so brood stocks canít happen from this group.

Alberta does some sterilization that results in 3N fish which are sterile but still retain spawning instincts and from what Iíve been told by the BC biologists, 1/2 of the males die in year two.

And The lake is still suffering from the stocking of 100,000 plus which mostly removed a lot of the bugs. This will take time to recover. It may take years.

Regards,

Don
Its not the number of trout that matters, but their mass. Fish weight increases exponentially with length. 100,000 10cm long fish would have an equivalent mass and caloric need as much fewer larger fish. Where did you get the bug data?
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  #63  
Old 10-22-2020, 09:22 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by wind drift View Post
Its not the number of trout that matters, but their mass. Fish weight increases exponentially with length. 100,000 10cm long fish would have an equivalent mass and caloric need as much fewer larger fish. Where did you get the bug data?
This is the way it works.

The uncropped lakes are in balance between predators and prey. Curiously enough, all the predators are large, the prey small.
When a new predator is introduced (trout), it will turn to readily available larger bugs working it way down to smaller and smaller insects as the larger bugs are removed or very limited. Some insects are able to avoid this predation through concealment. Gomphus dragon and chironomids are examples.
One only has to spend 100 days a year on water for 50 years to see this occur.
What does happen when bugs are few is the catch rate collapses. Unlike the accepted horse**** that they are hungry and will hit anything, animals canít waste energy this way. They will wait patiently for a abundance of food resources. Failure to do so where energy is expended with no return means you will die.
Many of the insects I saw 50 years ago have diminished. Cow Lake was a wonderful example. Stocking of perch nearly removed all the bugs like caddis. As the perch died due to winterkill, the caddis slowly returned . At one tine the hatch of dragon flies meant a touring of Hiway 752 past the lake killed a bunch of adults. Now, they are rarely seen. The leeches in Crimson Lake were famous for their abundance and size. Well, the perch got them too.
Sometimes environmental conditions decimate bug population. After the flood of 1995, there were few bugs left in the Oldman/Livingstone. Took sometime for the bugs to return. Presently, as WD cleans out the fish, bug life will explode making catching easier of the last few fish.
By the way, humans are one of the few organisms on earth who do things without a return on food, sex, shelter.


Don
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  #64  
Old 10-22-2020, 11:31 AM
wind drift wind drift is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
This is the way it works.

The uncropped lakes are in balance between predators and prey. Curiously enough, all the predators are large, the prey small.
When a new predator is introduced (trout), it will turn to readily available larger bugs working it way down to smaller and smaller insects as the larger bugs are removed or very limited. Some insects are able to avoid this predation through concealment. Gomphus dragon and chironomids are examples.
One only has to spend 100 days a year on water for 50 years to see this occur.
What does happen when bugs are few is the catch rate collapses. Unlike the accepted horse**** that they are hungry and will hit anything, animals canít waste energy this way. They will wait patiently for a abundance of food resources. Failure to do so where energy is expended with no return means you will die.
Many of the insects I saw 50 years ago have diminished. Cow Lake was a wonderful example. Stocking of perch nearly removed all the bugs like caddis. As the perch died due to winterkill, the caddis slowly returned . At one tine the hatch of dragon flies meant a touring of Hiway 752 past the lake killed a bunch of adults. Now, they are rarely seen. The leeches in Crimson Lake were famous for their abundance and size. Well, the perch got them too.
Sometimes environmental conditions decimate bug population. After the flood of 1995, there were few bugs left in the Oldman/Livingstone. Took sometime for the bugs to return. Presently, as WD cleans out the fish, bug life will explode making catching easier of the last few fish.
By the way, humans are one of the few organisms on earth who do things without a return on food, sex, shelter.


Don
You missed my point. Iíll try again. Comparing numbers of stocked trout isnít meaningful or correct. Stocking amounts need to be compared on the basis of biomass. You appear to be drawing conclusions based on a flawed comparison. Also, while I have a great deal of respect for the time you spend on the water, I donít believe that oneís observations of the bug community and numbers provide a means to reliable know trends, which must consider averages and variation of the data, collected consistently. Even if those issues didnít exist, theres a big difference between correlation and causation. Correlation doesnít equal causation. We hunters and anglers are good at creating correlations, especially because we tend to only accept info that supports our theories and ignore contradictory info. We arenít good a determining causation, which usually involves a formal experiment with treatments and controls. Knowing these things and being trained to conduct experiments, with peer review, is what separates scientists from the rest of us. That, plus a healthy dose of skepticism.

Be well!
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  #65  
Old 10-22-2020, 05:20 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by wind drift View Post
You missed my point. Iíll try again. Comparing numbers of stocked trout isnít meaningful or correct. Stocking amounts need to be compared on the basis of biomass. You appear to be drawing conclusions based on a flawed comparison. Also, while I have a great deal of respect for the time you spend on the water, I donít believe that oneís observations of the bug community and numbers provide a means to reliable know trends, which must consider averages and variation of the data, collected consistently. Even if those issues didnít exist, theres a big difference between correlation and causation. Correlation doesnít equal causation. We hunters and anglers are good at creating correlations, especially because we tend to only accept info that supports our theories and ignore contradictory info. We arenít good a determining causation, which usually involves a formal experiment with treatments and controls. Knowing these things and being trained to conduct experiments, with peer review, is what separates scientists from the rest of us. That, plus a healthy dose of skepticism.




Be well!


Skeptical I am,

One thing Iíve noticed for many years, you can have big or many but not both. Both only occurs in Alberta when multiple years of winterkill remove enough fish to finally allow the new stocking to grow providing there are enough bugs left.
If you look at the stocking numbers previously posted you must come to the realization that our trained govt professionals took a number of years to finally come to the same conclusion.
However, that still begs the question of reducing or eliminating food resources through stocking which is evident in lake after lake. This evidence would be difficult to acquire utilizing years of research. I recall doing a bug count on Stauffer Creek trying to figure out why trout populations were dropping. A complete waste of time. Professionals discounted the numbers although I used the same technique they utilized.
Am I gonna do the research, nope. Iím 75, Iím tired.

Watching the Alberta fishery slide into abyss is kinda tough.

Finally got a theme song for Alberta fishery.

ď And another one bites the DustĒ.

Still shovelling - sometimes even snow.

Don
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  #66  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:44 AM
goldscud goldscud is offline
 
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Dr Post at the U of C has done these kind of studies on virgin(fishless) lakes in the Merritt BC region.
It doesn't take long for trout to remove most of the largest prey items like big sedges, the largest scuds, diving beetle larva etc. Fish grow incredibly fast when all the bugs are available. Once the bugs are gone, the growth rate rapidly decreases. More trout, the bigger the impact.
The same thing happened in Sparrow's Egg lake in Kananaskis. The pre-fish bug populations were incredible. Today it is a shadow of what it once was, and the trout growth rates have declined accordingly. You can go to Marl lake behind Elkwood campground and see for yourself the amazing invertebrate populations in the water where there are no trout. The 2 lakes are in the same neighborhood.
In a perfect world, a big lake study to find suitable stocking densities would be nice. The cost and labor required ensure it will never happen in Alberta. The government can't even bother to do some science on the so-called blue ribbon Bow River....even back when the government was flush with money.
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  #67  
Old 10-24-2020, 06:46 PM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by wind drift View Post
What legislation could be applied, on which access was determined on whether water is in a frozen or liquid state?
Not a lawyer so you tell me.

My point is to make it clear no one is allowed on the lake for whatever reason. Make it unlawful. If someone breaks the law, Trespasses and drowns then there is no risk of a lawsuit which is the reason for this thread.

As well...buy a bunch of heavy plastic barrels, posted danger, thin ice stay off lake. Anchor all around the aeration area.

How about we think of a solution instead of complaining about the problem...or far worse...complain about people complaining about the problem.
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  #68  
Old 10-27-2020, 02:17 AM
shep dog shep dog is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Iíve fished Police for 35 years. Typically when 100,000 trout were stocked and the kill was five the campground rarely more than 1/3 full and 5>8 vehicles in the boat launch parking area.

Don
"100,000 stocked trout?" Not in this lifetime, Don.

Now, should we not expect more pressure on Put-and-Take fisheries if they are aerated, with bigger fish available earlier than the stocking truck's arrival?

Be careful what you wish for...if the ACA finds the money to spend aerating your favourite stocked reservoir, you might find yourself in a crowd with some competition for stocked trout.
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  #69  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:49 AM
tallieho tallieho is offline
 
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Originally Posted by shep dog View Post
"100,000 stocked trout?" Not in this lifetime, Don.

Now, should we not expect more pressure on Put-and-Take fisheries if they are aerated, with bigger fish available earlier than the stocking truck's arrival?

Be careful what you wish for...if the ACA finds the money to spend aerating your favourite stocked reservoir, you might find yourself in a crowd with some competition for stocked trout.
Shep; I can't quite understand your position.I no myself that when the lake was stocked .Prior to it being disegnated a QSF.The lake was stocked yearly with 100,000+ ,for many years.To have the lake be returned to a put & take fishery.Would imo be a huge loss,to us fisherman.It's pretty dam obvious that,the attraction is the now large fish.In these days of cost cutting stocking 100,000 fish at approx. $100.00 a kg,so $60-70,000.Versus stocking 10,000 .The dollar savings pay for the aeration.Back when the place was aput & take fishery.The campground was rarely full.Now even the overflow is full.
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  #70  
Old 10-28-2020, 07:17 PM
shep dog shep dog is offline
 
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Shep; I can't quite understand your position.I no myself that when the lake was stocked .Prior to it being disegnated a QSF.The lake was stocked yearly with 100,000+ ,for many years.To have the lake be returned to a put & take fishery.Would imo be a huge loss,to us fisherman.It's pretty dam obvious that,the attraction is the now large fish.In these days of cost cutting stocking 100,000 fish at approx. $100.00 a kg,so $60-70,000.Versus stocking 10,000 .The dollar savings pay for the aeration.Back when the place was aput & take fishery.The campground was rarely full.Now even the overflow is full.
My position is that the ACA has a budget. I sincerely hope we can all agree on that simple fact.

Aerating your favourite Put-and-Take stocked fishery may not be possible ($) or sensible, given the ACA's mandate.

There's no doubt in my mind that the ACA receives complaints from amateur fishery biologists on a regular basis.
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  #71  
Old 10-28-2020, 08:53 PM
One'n'Done One'n'Done is offline
 
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^^^^^^
Tall horse!
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  #72  
Old 10-28-2020, 11:32 PM
shep dog shep dog is offline
 
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Originally Posted by One'n'Done View Post
^^^^^^
Tall horse!
I believe you meant "high horse," meaning you think I'm being arrogant.

I've been called far worse things by far better men than you, friend.

The ACA has a budget and a mandate. Sorry if your favourite man-made reservoir won't be aerated this winter and you have to wait for the stocking truck to arrive. Part of the 2021 license I will buy will help pay for stocked Put-and-Take fisheries.

You're welcome.
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  #73  
Old 10-29-2020, 12:25 PM
Pudelpointer Pudelpointer is offline
 
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Originally Posted by shep dog View Post
"100,000 stocked trout?" Not in this lifetime, Don.

Now, should we not expect more pressure on Put-and-Take fisheries if they are aerated, with bigger fish available earlier than the stocking truck's arrival?

Be careful what you wish for...if the ACA finds the money to spend aerating your favourite stocked reservoir, you might find yourself in a crowd with some competition for stocked trout.
If you are older than 10, it has happened in your lifetime.

Your comments on this thread have been both ignorant and insulting. Don, and every other Albertan who pays taxes or buys a fishing license, has every right to raise issues and challenge our government experts, and / or those accessing our license dollars. I am going to assume that unless someone has a PhD in fish biology, their opinion does not matter to you, yet here you are sharing your opinion with the rest of us... please feel free to post your membership number to the American Fisheries Society. As neither my current degree, nor my pending one, are in "fisheries" feel free to denigrate and / or ignore the following comments (I am sure that most here would prefer the latter).

I have been following this issue for many years, and am familiar with all the reasons Police Outpost has been, and continues to be, a complete sh*t-show. I do not blame the ACA for this decision, yet I do not support it either. Any solution involving legislative changes would be years in the making, so that is pretty much a useless endeavour for this issue, and this location; however, there is existing legislation about fishing through the ice on beaver ponds iirc. So, maybe that could be modified in only two years.

Someone earlier mentioned using anchored barrels; I think this is very close to being both practical and adequate, except for the fencing requirement prescribed. I believe that anchored, heavily weighted buoys would be better, as they could be designed to stay upright regardless of ice conditions, and fencing could be attached directly each fall, if not left on all year.

I feel like sometimes both NGOs (ACA) and Gov bios fail to ask for support from the community to just get things done. Let's say that the buoy fencing idea is practical, but too expensive for the ACA to fund directly. Why does the ACA not ask the local (or Provincial) fisheries related non-profits to chip in? AFGA Zones have habitat project dollars available, as do various chapters of TU, local fish and game clubs, etc. We raise hundreds of thousands of dollars in this province every year, and many would see this as money well spent - providing quality fishing opportunities for Albertans. If you had gone to Police Outpost at any time this year, or to Bullshead earlier this decade before it began to annually winter kill, you would have seen the interest people have in these opportunities; as described it was packed! More people than I have ever seen there before. Now, I am not one for crowds, but there is lots of room on that lake and at no time did I feel like it was too busy (other than the boat launch and parking lot). I would hazard a guess that MANY of those people would be willing to contribute to a fishery such as Police has recently become.

I have been involved in multiple roles with Fish and Game clubs in Southern Alberta since I came here in 2004. Only once has anyone from Gov inquired about assistance with a project, and in the end they never asked for help, despite assurances that I would personally take it on.

In my former life in BC, I was involved from conception with a very large, very expensive elk relocation project. That project had buy in, and extensive assistance (both financial and volunteer labour) from the local fish and game club from day one, and later the local First Nation. That buy in made the project acceptable to (and widely supported by) the general public. The project ran for >15 years and has become one of the most successful ungulate reintroductions in modern times. While managing volunteers can be an issue, many projects are virtually impossible without them. Had the biologist who spearheaded that project tried to keep it "within government" it would have failed, 100%. All he had to do to get the project going was to ask for help.

Fish and game clubs used to be widely called upon by local bios to work on projects throughout NA. Now such partnerships are very much the exception, instead of the rule. The result is a fishing and hunting population with very little "investment" in their sport(s), other than the vast $$ spent on gear. That is unfortunate, and IMO is getting worse every year. People WANT to help, they want to be involved; why not let them?
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  #74  
Old 10-29-2020, 04:40 PM
shep dog shep dog is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Pudelpointer View Post
If you are older than 10, it has happened in your lifetime.

Your comments on this thread have been both ignorant and insulting. Don, and every other Albertan who pays taxes or buys a fishing license, has every right to raise issues and challenge our government experts, and / or those accessing our license dollars. I am going to assume that unless someone has a PhD in fish biology, their opinion does not matter to you, yet here you are sharing your opinion with the rest of us... please feel free to post your membership number to the American Fisheries Society. As neither my current degree, nor my pending one, are in "fisheries" feel free to denigrate and / or ignore the following comments (I am sure that most here would prefer the latter).

I have been following this issue for many years, and am familiar with all the reasons Police Outpost has been, and continues to be, a complete sh*t-show. I do not blame the ACA for this decision, yet I do not support it either. Any solution involving legislative changes would be years in the making, so that is pretty much a useless endeavour for this issue, and this location; however, there is existing legislation about fishing through the ice on beaver ponds iirc. So, maybe that could be modified in only two years.

Someone earlier mentioned using anchored barrels; I think this is very close to being both practical and adequate, except for the fencing requirement prescribed. I believe that anchored, heavily weighted buoys would be better, as they could be designed to stay upright regardless of ice conditions, and fencing could be attached directly each fall, if not left on all year.

I feel like sometimes both NGOs (ACA) and Gov bios fail to ask for support from the community to just get things done. Let's say that the buoy fencing idea is practical, but too expensive for the ACA to fund directly. Why does the ACA not ask the local (or Provincial) fisheries related non-profits to chip in? AFGA Zones have habitat project dollars available, as do various chapters of TU, local fish and game clubs, etc. We raise hundreds of thousands of dollars in this province every year, and many would see this as money well spent - providing quality fishing opportunities for Albertans. If you had gone to Police Outpost at any time this year, or to Bullshead earlier this decade before it began to annually winter kill, you would have seen the interest people have in these opportunities; as described it was packed! More people than I have ever seen there before. Now, I am not one for crowds, but there is lots of room on that lake and at no time did I feel like it was too busy (other than the boat launch and parking lot). I would hazard a guess that MANY of those people would be willing to contribute to a fishery such as Police has recently become.

I have been involved in multiple roles with Fish and Game clubs in Southern Alberta since I came here in 2004. Only once has anyone from Gov inquired about assistance with a project, and in the end they never asked for help, despite assurances that I would personally take it on.

In my former life in BC, I was involved from conception with a very large, very expensive elk relocation project. That project had buy in, and extensive assistance (both financial and volunteer labour) from the local fish and game club from day one, and later the local First Nation. That buy in made the project acceptable to (and widely supported by) the general public. The project ran for >15 years and has become one of the most successful ungulate reintroductions in modern times. While managing volunteers can be an issue, many projects are virtually impossible without them. Had the biologist who spearheaded that project tried to keep it "within government" it would have failed, 100%. All he had to do to get the project going was to ask for help.

Fish and game clubs used to be widely called upon by local bios to work on projects throughout NA. Now such partnerships are very much the exception, instead of the rule. The result is a fishing and hunting population with very little "investment" in their sport(s), other than the vast $$ spent on gear. That is unfortunate, and IMO is getting worse every year. People WANT to help, they want to be involved; why not let them?
I wish I was 10 years of age. Moreover, I wish someone could tell me how many stocking trucks (or trips) it takes to introduce 100,000 stocked trout into a man-made reservoir to support a Put-and-Take fishery and how many tax dollars were spent in the process.

If you consider a dissenting opinion means ignorance and insults, I'm truly sorry for you.

I believe the ACA does the best that it can, with its limited resources, that it's very easy for people to criticize the ACA's work based on their personal wants or complaints, and that the ACA has far larger concerns.

The ACA cannot take directions from amateur fishery biologists or anglers with an axe to grind about missing "the good old days."
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  #75  
Old 10-29-2020, 11:31 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by shep dog View Post
I wish I was 10 years of age. Moreover, I wish someone could tell me how many stocking trucks (or trips) it takes to introduce 100,000 stocked trout into a man-made reservoir to support a Put-and-Take fishery and how many tax dollars were spent in the process.

If you consider a dissenting opinion means ignorance and insults, I'm truly sorry for you.

I believe the ACA does the best that it can, with its limited resources, that it's very easy for people to criticize the ACA's work based on their personal wants or complaints, and that the ACA has far larger concerns.

The ACA cannot take directions from amateur fishery biologists or anglers with an axe to grind about missing "the good old days."

Shep....

If you wish to send me your email address, I will send you the copies of the PDF prepared by the Alberta Govt from 2003>present of stockings of trout in Alberta.

Don
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  #76  
Old 10-29-2020, 11:33 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Drove by a sewage lagoon the other day with aeration.

No big signs or other exclusion devices.

Don
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  #77  
Old 10-30-2020, 01:11 PM
pipco pipco is offline
 
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Don,

My memory isn't great but I recall when the ACA was concerned about liability issues around aerators a few years back and a number of decent stocked lakes lost trout to winterkill.

A lawyer ( bless his heart, they're not all bad) from the Edmonton Trout club said he would step up and take responsibility of any liability issues
regarding Spring Lake.

From what I recall he was convinced that a 100 year old law would not be enforceable ( probably not the correct "legal" term cuz I'm not a lawyer ) if there was proper signage to warn people and it would be thrown out of court.

Thanx to him and an agreement with ACA on this particular lake, the aeration took place as usual and there are still a couple good sized trout left in the lake.

(It's not the same lake it was three or four years ago due to much more pressure and poaching but still a reasonable lake for a put and take.


Never having fished Police Outpost I can't speak for it's merits but it does sadden me when another QF is shut down for what I'll call political reasons.
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  #78  
Old 10-30-2020, 06:04 PM
lannie lannie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Drove by a sewage lagoon the other day with aeration.

No big signs or other exclusion devices.

Don
Good chance there aren't any old auger holes on the ice either....
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  #79  
Old 10-30-2020, 06:21 PM
shep dog shep dog is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Shep....

If you wish to send me your email address, I will send you the copies of the PDF prepared by the Alberta Govt from 2003>present of stockings of trout in Alberta.

Don
Done.

Last edited by shep dog; 10-30-2020 at 06:43 PM.
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  #80  
Old 10-30-2020, 11:45 PM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Pudelpointer View Post
If you are older than 10, it has happened in your lifetime.

Your comments on this thread have been both ignorant and insulting. Don, and every other Albertan who pays taxes or buys a fishing license, has every right to raise issues and challenge our government experts, and / or those accessing our license dollars. I am going to assume that unless someone has a PhD in fish biology, their opinion does not matter to you, yet here you are sharing your opinion with the rest of us... please feel free to post your membership number to the American Fisheries Society. As neither my current degree, nor my pending one, are in "fisheries" feel free to denigrate and / or ignore the following comments (I am sure that most here would prefer the latter).

I have been following this issue for many years, and am familiar with all the reasons Police Outpost has been, and continues to be, a complete sh*t-show. I do not blame the ACA for this decision, yet I do not support it either. Any solution involving legislative changes would be years in the making, so that is pretty much a useless endeavour for this issue, and this location; however, there is existing legislation about fishing through the ice on beaver ponds iirc. So, maybe that could be modified in only two years.

Someone earlier mentioned using anchored barrels; I think this is very close to being both practical and adequate, except for the fencing requirement prescribed. I believe that anchored, heavily weighted buoys would be better, as they could be designed to stay upright regardless of ice conditions, and fencing could be attached directly each fall, if not left on all year.

I feel like sometimes both NGOs (ACA) and Gov bios fail to ask for support from the community to just get things done. Let's say that the buoy fencing idea is practical, but too expensive for the ACA to fund directly. Why does the ACA not ask the local (or Provincial) fisheries related non-profits to chip in? AFGA Zones have habitat project dollars available, as do various chapters of TU, local fish and game clubs, etc. We raise hundreds of thousands of dollars in this province every year, and many would see this as money well spent - providing quality fishing opportunities for Albertans. If you had gone to Police Outpost at any time this year, or to Bullshead earlier this decade before it began to annually winter kill, you would have seen the interest people have in these opportunities; as described it was packed! More people than I have ever seen there before. Now, I am not one for crowds, but there is lots of room on that lake and at no time did I feel like it was too busy (other than the boat launch and parking lot). I would hazard a guess that MANY of those people would be willing to contribute to a fishery such as Police has recently become.

I have been involved in multiple roles with Fish and Game clubs in Southern Alberta since I came here in 2004. Only once has anyone from Gov inquired about assistance with a project, and in the end they never asked for help, despite assurances that I would personally take it on.

In my former life in BC, I was involved from conception with a very large, very expensive elk relocation project. That project had buy in, and extensive assistance (both financial and volunteer labour) from the local fish and game club from day one, and later the local First Nation. That buy in made the project acceptable to (and widely supported by) the general public. The project ran for >15 years and has become one of the most successful ungulate reintroductions in modern times. While managing volunteers can be an issue, many projects are virtually impossible without them. Had the biologist who spearheaded that project tried to keep it "within government" it would have failed, 100%. All he had to do to get the project going was to ask for help.

Fish and game clubs used to be widely called upon by local bios to work on projects throughout NA. Now such partnerships are very much the exception, instead of the rule. The result is a fishing and hunting population with very little "investment" in their sport(s), other than the vast $$ spent on gear. That is unfortunate, and IMO is getting worse every year. People WANT to help, they want to be involved; why not let them?
Great post.

I mentioned barrels as an option but the point was we should be able to brain storm a solution that is practical.

I envision a sealed heavy duty plastic barrel fill with closed cell foam so a bullet wonít since it and such the concrete block weight would be too heavy to lift and chain the surface to prevent being cut as sadly we must take into account vandals.

Still...something should work.

Don...good catch on the sewage lagoon that is aerated.

Maybe a green company like the wind generators down south could sponsor both the barrels with logos and the green power to run the aerators.
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Old 10-31-2020, 02:36 PM
solocam3 solocam3 is offline
 
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Default The Alberta Conservation Association has been told it could be held liable for accidents on a lake it has aerated. (CBC )

FYI From a 2016 article.


Ice fishermen could face manslaughter charge for drilling holes in a frozen lake

Alberta Conservation Association warns aeration law is severe if a person falls through ice. Alberta's ice fishermen could be treading on thin ice with the law.


The Alberta Conservation Association is warning anglers of the potential legal ramifications of drilling holes on a frozen lake and casting a line during Alberta's long winter months. "The likelihood of being charged is very low, but the severity of being charged is very high. If you do get charged, then manslaughter is the likely result," said ACA President Todd Zimmerling. For years ACA members have aerated Alberta's shallow lakes but have scaled back the program after a warning from their lawyers. Zimmerling says the agency could be held liable too, even charged with manslaughter, if someone were to accidentally fall through ice on a lake that is being aerated. "It raised a lot of flags for us," Zimmerling said. "No one has been charged with relation to holes in ice, but people have been charged in relation to holes in the ground. So excavation (and aeration) are under the same section of the code. And that's really been the issue. "That's a lot to risk for anybody."


Zimmerling thought posting signs warning of the potential dangers of drilling was enough to ensure their due diligence under the law, but they have been told otherwise. Zimmerling says the language used in section 263 of the Criminal Code is so prohibitive that the ACA is making an effort to have it changed. "We'll approach the federal government and see whether or not they can make some changes to the wording. "We're not the only ones that aerate ponds, so there are a lot of groups out there with potential liability." In the meantime, the ACA has modified their surface-aeration plan, adding platforms and temporary fences at their excavation sites. Of the more than 800 fishable lakes in Alberta, many are prone to winterkill. An early freeze, combined with a heavy snowpack, can rob a lake of oxygen, and Zimmerling says aeration is an important tool to keep fish populations viable.
"It was frustrating, because we were initially looking at new lakes that we could aerate, and get more fishing opportunities for Albertans."


CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices|

And the actual law:263 (1) Every one who makes or causes to be made an opening in ice that is open to or frequented by the public is under a legal duty to guard it in a manner that is adequate to prevent persons from falling in by accident and is adequate to warn them that the opening exists
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Old 11-01-2020, 09:05 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipco View Post
Don,

My memory isn't great but I recall when the ACA was concerned about liability issues around aerators a few years back and a number of decent stocked lakes lost trout to winterkill.

A lawyer ( bless his heart, they're not all bad) from the Edmonton Trout club said he would step up and take responsibility of any liability issues
regarding Spring Lake.

From what I recall he was convinced that a 100 year old law would not be enforceable ( probably not the correct "legal" term cuz I'm not a lawyer ) if there was proper signage to warn people and it would be thrown out of court

PThane to him and an agreement with ACA on this particular lake, the aeration took place as usual and there are still a couple good sized trout left in the lake.

(It's not the same lake it was three or four years ago due to much more pressure and poaching but still a reasonable lake for a put and take.


Never having fished Police Outpost I can't speak for it's merits but it does sadden me when another QF is shut down for what I'll call political reasons.

During the last aeration kerfuffle, the ACA, Alberta Parks and Fish and wildlife were able to aearate all the lakes in NW Alberta. Took cooperation.

The same bunch in Central and southern Alberta failed to cooperate and the fish died. You and I suffered because they canít work together.

Same situation happening at Police. Parks has equipment bought for areation and will not use it cause they have to pay for power. ACA was likely involved due to Parks cheapness.
Like the last time, fish will die,

ďEver wanta take a bunch behind the barn and spank them?Ē


Don

Last edited by Don Andersen; 11-01-2020 at 09:10 AM.
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  #83  
Old 11-01-2020, 09:16 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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ACA and the bogey man.

They seem to be the only ones spooked.

Cities and towns have open sewage aeration hole

Golf course east of Slyvan just off highway aerates.

Outfalls from dams are open water

Sewage outflow and drainage water outflows fro cities are no issue.

Natural provides open spring holes in a lot of lakes.

Lots of examples.

Don
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  #84  
Old 11-01-2020, 09:44 AM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
ACA and the bogey man.

They seem to be the only ones spooked.
Hard to dispute this. I'm trying to find similar issues in Saskatchewan or Manitoba. Just finding no concerns like Alberta seems to go through. Too many lawyers here?

Sask - probably the most akin to Alberta in terms of numbers of aerated lates
http://www.leaderpost.com/sask+minis...168/story.html

Man and FLIPPR - tough comparison and a totally different organization but again, no issues I can find
https://flippr.ca/lake-development/
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  #85  
Old 11-01-2020, 09:57 AM
spurly spurly is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wind drift View Post
What legislation could be applied, on which access was determined on whether water is in a frozen or liquid state?
Quite a few lakes in B.C., simply state in their regulations. No ice fishing allowed.
We should be able to do something similar with Police, or other lakes.
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  #86  
Old 11-09-2020, 01:39 AM
shep dog shep dog is offline
 
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Quite a few lakes in B.C., simply state in their regulations. No ice fishing allowed.
We should be able to do something similar with Police, or other lakes.
A put-and-take stocked trout fishery should be open to everyone, ice fishermen included.
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  #87  
Old 11-09-2020, 09:30 AM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by shep dog View Post
A put-and-take stocked trout fishery should be open to everyone, ice fishermen included.
Why?

If you manage a lake for quality sized fish to attract people from all over, why not? Is there not enough put and take lakeís with ice fishing allowed around all ready?
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Old 11-09-2020, 06:35 PM
shep dog shep dog is offline
 
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Why?

If you manage a lake for quality sized fish to attract people from all over, why not? Is there not enough put and take lakeís with ice fishing allowed around all ready?
Why not? Correct me if I'm wrong, but ice fishermen buy licences to support the same put-and-take stocked fishery. Somehow, they're not entitled to take stocked trout? Because they choose to fish for them through the ice?
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  #89  
Old 11-09-2020, 09:35 PM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Why not? Correct me if I'm wrong, but ice fishermen buy licences to support the same put-and-take stocked fishery. Somehow, they're not entitled to take stocked trout? Because they choose to fish for them through the ice?
So you believe bait should be used everywhere...rivers, creeks and lakes because bait fishermen all buy licenses?
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  #90  
Old 11-12-2020, 12:19 AM
fishpro fishpro is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shep dog View Post
Why not? Correct me if I'm wrong, but ice fishermen buy licences to support the same put-and-take stocked fishery. Somehow, they're not entitled to take stocked trout? Because they choose to fish for them through the ice?
The goal is to create quality fisheries with larger trout, which is achieved through reduced mortality rates. Unfortunately ice fishing inherently has higher mortality due to the way fish are handled and the cold air temperatures.
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