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  #31  
Old 10-27-2020, 03:02 PM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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On the chainsaw forums, the first thing they're going to ask is for you to pull the muffler, and sent a pic of the piston. If it's rubbed, your saw might need a new piston and cylinder.

Some scored pistons run for years as long as the cylinder is cleaned of transfer from the piston.

If you pull the cord, can you spin it over easily? If yes, will it start?
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  #32  
Old 10-27-2020, 03:04 PM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher View Post
I seem to recall that the Stihl 2 stroke oil I bought (same deal as you, buy the oil and get an extra year of warranty) has a fuel stabilizer in it. I will check next time I'm close to the saw.

ARG
I always used separate stabilizer as the stuff in the stihl oil only seemed good for a few months in my experience. I either use amsoil or stabil stabilizer, and a shot of seafoam, and I've used some of the gas over a year later, and it was just fine.
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  #33  
Old 10-27-2020, 03:37 PM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amosfella View Post
On the chainsaw forums, the first thing they're going to ask is for you to pull the muffler, and sent a pic of the piston. If it's rubbed, your saw might need a new piston and cylinder.

Some scored pistons run for years as long as the cylinder is cleaned of transfer from the piston.

If you pull the cord, can you spin it over easily? If yes, will it start?
The engine starts alright, it runs ok too, thereís some obvious damage due to heat and melting plastic. From what I can tell the clutch got hot and there is a chunk of metal that came off of it, Iím sorry Iím not the best tech guy it doesnít want to upload pictures for me otherwise I could show you. Not entirely sure what caused all of the overheating.
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  #34  
Old 10-27-2020, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by slough shark View Post
The engine starts alright, it runs ok too, thereís some obvious damage due to heat and melting plastic. From what I can tell the clutch got hot and there is a chunk of metal that came off of it, Iím sorry Iím not the best tech guy it doesnít want to upload pictures for me otherwise I could show you. Not entirely sure what caused all of the overheating.

This post paints a clearer picture. The heat damage most likely occurred due to friction. You had to have picked up a piece of wire or something metallic that jammed in there between the chain and drum. A piece of wood/bark wouldíve just smoked out. Sounds like it got extremely hot.

Sorry to say, but thatís gonna get filed under ĎUser Errorí all day long. At least itís running, so thatís good news. I wish you all the best.

Tree

Edit: As per your first question about checking the oiler, just run the saw a bit with the cover and bar off. Youíll be able to see it come out. Occasionally Iíd run a 50/50 mix of oil and gas through to help clean it out.


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  #35  
Old 10-27-2020, 04:31 PM
224MV 224MV is offline
 
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Default Clutch drum bearing

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Originally Posted by slough shark View Post
The engine starts alright, it runs ok too, thereís some obvious damage due to heat and melting plastic. From what I can tell the clutch got hot and there is a chunk of metal that came off of it, Iím sorry Iím not the best tech guy it doesnít want to upload pictures for me otherwise I could show you. Not entirely sure what caused all of the overheating.
I would guess that your clutch drum bearing failed, if it wasnít lack of bar oil to the chain. If you run your chain to loose itís easy to pack off the port on the bar that allows the oil to enter. If the saw starts and runs good the crankshaft bearings should be good to. There isnít to many possibilities to cause that amount of heat in that short of a time period IMO
Did you get a chance to look at the bearing before you took your saw to the dealership?
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  #36  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:13 PM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 224MV View Post
I would guess that your clutch drum bearing failed, if it wasnít lack of bar oil to the chain. If you run your chain to loose itís easy to pack off the port on the bar that allows the oil to enter. If the saw starts and runs good the crankshaft bearings should be good to. There isnít to many possibilities to cause that amount of heat in that short of a time period IMO
Did you get a chance to look at the bearing before you took your saw to the dealership?
Well when I had taken it apart after it overheated there was a piece of metal that came off of the clutch or clutch drum. Do you know if the saw will run with a failing bearing for even a short time?
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  #37  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:14 PM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TreeGuy View Post
This post paints a clearer picture. The heat damage most likely occurred due to friction. You had to have picked up a piece of wire or something metallic that jammed in there between the chain and drum. A piece of wood/bark wouldíve just smoked out. Sounds like it got extremely hot.

Sorry to say, but thatís gonna get filed under ĎUser Errorí all day long. At least itís running, so thatís good news. I wish you all the best.

Tree

Edit: As per your first question about checking the oiler, just run the saw a bit with the cover and bar off. Youíll be able to see it come out. Occasionally Iíd run a 50/50 mix of oil and gas through to help clean it out.


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Oil did come out
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  #38  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:48 PM
224MV 224MV is offline
 
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Originally Posted by slough shark View Post
Well when I had taken it apart after it overheated there was a piece of metal that came off of the clutch or clutch drum. Do you know if the saw will run with a failing bearing for even a short time?
Yes they will run, it acts like you ran out of bar oil (chain comes to a fast stop when you let the throttle). They start ďboggingĒ down when you give it some throttle. The more the bearing fails the more friction. Iíve replaced a few but never seen it take out a clutch. I usually manually roll my chain over on my saws after I tighten the chain or sharpen it. If something is not right youíll know.

Do you remember if there was any needles missing in the bearing when you first took it apart?
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  #39  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:49 PM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 224MV View Post
Yes they will run, it acts like you ran out of bar oil (chain comes to a fast stop when you let the throttle). They start ďboggingĒ down when you give it some throttle. The more the bearing fails the more friction. Iíve replaced a few but never seen it take out a clutch. I usually manually roll my chain over on my saws after I tighten the chain or sharpen it. If something is not right youíll know.

Do you remember if there was any needles missing in the bearing when you first took it apart?
I donít recall if pins fell out but after looking at some YouTube videos I donít recall taking off the washer or E clip, donít recall much of anything about the bearing, to be honest Iíve never had to dig that far into the machine so I didnít know too much about all the specifics. Iím learning a lot on this thread along with my research online. There isnít any part of the bearing in what they gave back to me, nor was there any mention of the bearing in our discussion although that seems to be an integral part of what happened here. I will be having some more discussions with the dealer and stihl about this because itís looking like the bearing failed completely, perhaps disintegrated and caused the clutch to overheat and break.
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  #40  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:31 PM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Sorry my bad, washer is still there, no E clip though
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  #41  
Old 10-27-2020, 08:51 PM
224MV 224MV is offline
 
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Default Clutch Bearing

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Originally Posted by slough shark View Post
I donít recall if pins fell out but after looking at some YouTube videos I donít recall taking off the washer or E clip, donít recall much of anything about the bearing, to be honest Iíve never had to dig that far into the machine so I didnít know too much about all the specifics. Iím learning a lot on this thread along with my research online. There isnít any part of the bearing in what they gave back to me, nor was there any mention of the bearing in our discussion although that seems to be an integral part of what happened here. I will be having some more discussions with the dealer and stihl about this because itís looking like the bearing failed completely, perhaps disintegrated and caused the clutch to overheat and break.
Yes, if itís not with the parts then Iíd say it totally disintegrated causing the clutch to fail. It doesnít surprise me either that the dealership missed it too, some of them probably donít get that far into a saw very often and if it wasnít there to begin with probably wouldnít think about it. If I remember right the owners manual does not have maintenance intervals for greasing the bearing so Iíd say your saw should be under warranty IMO. Good luck with that though....
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  #42  
Old 10-28-2020, 01:47 AM
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224MV, I have an honest question for ya as obviously you know of what you speak.

Given the fact that Slough Shark posted that all the plastic housing surrounding the clutch was melted, do you really think a failing clutch bearing could generate that much heat prior to failure? Iím honestly sceptical.

Iíve burnt out a few clutches over the years. None of which were catastrophic. Just wear and tear. Obviously, the clutch bearing is lost. Thatís a no brainer.

Iíll stand by my hypothesis of friction induced heat causing the failure because over many years Iíve almost burnt down a few saws and a couple of chippers. Metallic material and super stringy stuff like caragana tend to get wound up in moving parts and become a colossal PITA. The risk of ignition with the oil soaked crud built up within the entire chamber around the crank most certainly exists.

An external and conductive heat source interacting with the clutch mechanism would explain the melted casing (plastics engineered for high heat applications) and a failed clutch bearing.

If it was the the bearing itself, Iíd be extremely concerned that that heat energy transferred down the crank and damaged the internals. Itís not a short trip.

Interesting discussion.

Tree


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  #43  
Old 10-28-2020, 11:30 AM
224MV 224MV is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TreeGuy View Post
224MV, I have an honest question for ya as obviously you know of what you speak.

Given the fact that Slough Shark posted that all the plastic housing surrounding the clutch was melted, do you really think a failing clutch bearing could generate that much heat prior to failure? Iím honestly sceptical.

Iíve burnt out a few clutches over the years. None of which were catastrophic. Just wear and tear. Obviously, the clutch bearing is lost. Thatís a no brainer.

Iíll stand by my hypothesis of friction induced heat causing the failure because over many years Iíve almost burnt down a few saws and a couple of chippers. Metallic material and super stringy stuff like caragana tend to get wound up in moving parts and become a colossal PITA. The risk of ignition with the oil soaked crud built up within the entire chamber around the crank most certainly exists.

An external and conductive heat source interacting with the clutch mechanism would explain the melted casing (plastics engineered for high heat applications) and a failed clutch bearing.

If it was the the bearing itself, Iíd be extremely concerned that that heat energy transferred down the crank and damaged the internals. Itís not a short trip.

Interesting discussion.

Tree


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Tree, Iím not disagreeing with your hypothesis as it is very possible. Iím only providing more possibilities.
I donít think a failing bearing would cause that much heat to melt the plastic crankcase. But it sounds like there was nothing left of the bearing which I think would cause a lot of heat if you kept running the saw, especially if slough shark was thinking it was just cutting slow due to green wood.
I had a bearing come apart on me on an 044 while cutting some large spruce. The cage was still there but most of the needles were MIA. The oil and sawdust build up on the crankcase was smoking. Probably a good thing it was a magnesium case instead of plastic. I thought my chain oiler had plugged off the way it acted and heated up. I grabbed another saw and finished the job. Didnít take long to figure out the problem when I got home.

It is quite possible there is damage to the crank bearing and oil seal from the heat if itís melted that much. The dealership should be able to do a vacuum test to see if the oil seal is still good. If the crank bearing are shot or starting to go youíll probably hear it when the saw is running(if they are totally shot you probably wonít be able to pull it over)

Definitely an interesting discussion. I would be interested in seeing the pictures of the saw
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  #44  
Old 10-28-2020, 01:07 PM
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Check out this guys youtube channel. He has some amazing videos on small engine repair. Most of them you can do with out any special tools.
https://www.youtube.com/user/donyboy73/videos
Check out this video on the chain brake system. Make sure everything is in its right place. It is possible the brand that wraps around the clutch drum was rubbing and could make it overheat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRaLngZd_0

clutch drum install
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlQQq210HkM

Installing a new clutch, this video is for a 180 but should basically be the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dtyf6uIKPZw
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  #45  
Old 10-28-2020, 02:24 PM
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Man, reading this thread through it leaves me wondering how it is not possible for the dealership to help this guy out in some way and at least show an inkling of compassion and care.

I don't know why customer service has to be so difficult these days.

I get that the OP maybe thinks he really did nothing to cause this and it could very well be a legit warranty claim, but I also totally see what TreeGuy says and it sadly is just something that the average consumer will never experience but it obviously happens often enough in the grand scheme of the chainsaw world that while it doesn't feel nice, it isn't really a warranty problem for the manufacturer.

This all said, how hard is it for the dealership to simply offer to help him in some other way and say offer him replacement parts at cost or cost on a new saw, take back the old one and fix it and sell as a refurb? No, it isn't their fault but if the OP was good enough to spend his money there the first time, chances are if they did a bit to help the guy not take such painful hit, he probably would rave about the help and spend more there over the years and send other people in because they proved they are there for their clients and not just to profit off a bad situation.

As a business owner I learned a long time ago you don't have to lose money but can still make a difference helping someone out of a jam, nor do you have to make money on every deal to make profit overall. Why does just doing a good thing have to be so difficult?

Uggggh I am sometimes so embarrassed for other retail companies.
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  #46  
Old 10-28-2020, 10:52 PM
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Default Stihl warranty issues

I was fortunate enough today to have a great conversation with Slough Shark. Iím posting these pics on his behalf. Hopefully everything works out for the best.

Tree








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  #47  
Old 10-29-2020, 09:40 AM
224MV 224MV is offline
 
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Well that is quite a mess, which is probably why the dealership doesnít want to fix it. The picture of the brake band doesnít show any heat discolouration so obviously their theory is BS. Also if it was the brake the outside of the clutch drum would be very shiny from contact with the brake band.
Looking at the clutch picture it doesnít have any pieces missing on it at least on the front side of it so Iíd guess the pieces you found inside was what was left of the bearing.
It also looks like the oil pump and the oil line took a good beating as well and probably should be replaced.
The marks on the crankcase appear to line up with the clutch drum. When the bearing started to go it would of started wobbling causing those marks Iím guessing.
Iíd try and take it back to the dealership and blame it on a faulty clutch drum bearing. I doubt it will work but itís worth trying.
If they wonít fix it and you donít want to spend the money on OEM parts try HL Supply out of the states. I buy a lot of parts from them and have had very good luck with their parts. Usually about 1/3 the cost of OEM parts.
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  #48  
Old 10-29-2020, 10:28 AM
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Id be taking that to a different authorized repair center to get a second opinion. That definitely looks like the bearing failed or possibly even the crank shaft if somehow out of alignment. Worst case is you post these photos on Stihl's social media sites asking for their opinion directly and let their users decide.
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  #49  
Old 10-29-2020, 10:30 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Guys just a word of advice, try not to run your saws too hard on warm summer days. Good to have a second saw and let saw cool off. Metal expands and friction can increase in many areas.
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  #50  
Old 10-30-2020, 01:49 AM
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Default Stihl warranty issues

224MV. You obviously know saws, but I must respectfully disagree with your opinion here (please keep in mind that this opinion is worth exactly the cost of the paper itís written on. Lol)

If you look at the clutch pic again, youíll see the broken off piece at approximately the 1:00 position. You should also take note of the heavy pitting on the edge of the clutch drum, yet the internals are perfectly unscathed. A pure bearing failure would look different, no? Blowing up from the centre...

Further, if you look closer at the scratches at the 10:00 position of the crank casing, youíll notice how deeply the cuts are and how the plastic has been ripped upwards violently TOWARD the crank. Thatís not even mentioning the other damage. Classic evidence of something metallic being wound in and around a crank shaft.

Iíve pointed SS to a quality dealer Iíve had over 20 years of dealings with as a ĎHail Maryí. With all that being said, it most certainly doesnít mean that the damage is directly related to the clutch failure. But it sure as hell gives the dealer a damn good reason to not honour the warranty. Hopefully it works out. Ultimate though, the evidence clearly suggests that something ugly got sucked through that saw. It happens. Iíve done worse. Haha.

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Last edited by TreeGuy; 10-30-2020 at 02:03 AM.
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  #51  
Old 10-30-2020, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TreeGuy View Post
224MV. You obviously know saws, but I must respectfully disagree with your opinion here (please keep in mind that this opinion is worth exactly the cost of the paper itís written on. Lol)

If you look at the clutch pic again, youíll see the broken off piece at approximately the 1:00 position. You should also take note of the heavy pitting on the edge of the clutch drum, yet the internals are perfectly unscathed. A pure bearing failure would look different, no? Blowing up from the centre...

Further, if you look closer at the scratches at the 10:00 position of the crank casing, youíll notice how deeply the cuts are and how the plastic has been ripped upwards violently TOWARD the crank. Thatís not even mentioning the other damage. Classic evidence of something metallic being wound in and around a crank shaft.

Iíve pointed SS to a quality dealer Iíve had over 20 years of dealings with as a ĎHail Maryí. With all that being said, it most certainly doesnít mean that the damage is directly related to the clutch failure. But it sure as hell gives the dealer a damn good reason to not honour the warranty. Hopefully it works out. Ultimate though, the evidence clearly suggests that something ugly got sucked through that saw. It happens. Iíve done worse. Haha.

Tree


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The only thing I can see at the 1:00 position is the grove that sits on the arm to turn the worm gear for the oiler. Could you elaborate on what your seeing? Perhaps I'm missing something.

On my saw the clutch parts are made of a hardened steel so it would make sense that there would be little damage to those parts if the bearing failed. It would force the needle bearings out towards the plastic like shrapnel. It does look like the clutch overheated, judging by the bluish colors in the steel I would estimate somewhere between 275*C to 300*C depending on what steel is used. The springs likely have lost their temper which could have added to the failure if it somehow forced the clutch to be off balance.
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  #52  
Old 10-30-2020, 10:23 AM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ghostguy6 View Post
The only thing I can see at the 1:00 position is the grove that sits on the arm to turn the worm gear for the oiler. Could you elaborate on what your seeing? Perhaps I'm missing something.

On my saw the clutch parts are made of a hardened steel so it would make sense that there would be little damage to those parts if the bearing failed. It would force the needle bearings out towards the plastic like shrapnel. It does look like the clutch overheated, judging by the bluish colors in the steel I would estimate somewhere between 275*C to 300*C depending on what steel is used. The springs likely have lost their temper which could have added to the failure if it somehow forced the clutch to be off balance.
There is a small piece of metal missing from that joint at the 1 oíclock position, that particular pic doesnít show it too well. Just a thought would the E clip coming off and getting sucked through possibly be the culprit for Something going through the saw? It was 100% not in place or anywhere to be found when I took the plastic cover off.
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  #53  
Old 10-30-2020, 10:46 AM
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Any chance you could post a better picture of the missing piece?

I would think if the E clip came off it would have been thrown out with the wood shavings rather than sucked directly into the clutch itself. The clip just seems to big to make it that far. Even if it broke in half I think its unlike to have been sucked in. Not saying it is not possible though. It would however make the entire clutch loose and run out of balance, to me it certainly looks plausible that this occurred.

I found this video that showed a piece of the exhaust rusting of and being sucked into the clutch area. Could you check the exhaust to see if that is intact? If it broke up into small enough pieces it could possibly make its way into the clutch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et8u-B0k8Zw
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  #54  
Old 10-30-2020, 11:39 AM
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  #55  
Old 10-30-2020, 11:46 AM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ghostguy6 View Post
Any chance you could post a better picture of the missing piece?

I would think if the E clip came off it would have been thrown out with the wood shavings rather than sucked directly into the clutch itself. The clip just seems to big to make it that far. Even if it broke in half I think its unlike to have been sucked in. Not saying it is not possible though. It would however make the entire clutch loose and run out of balance, to me it certainly looks plausible that this occurred.

I found this video that showed a piece of the exhaust rusting of and being sucked into the clutch area. Could you check the exhaust to see if that is intact? If it broke up into small enough pieces it could possibly make its way into the clutch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et8u-B0k8Zw
There isnít any rust, itís less than 2 years old and I store it in my garage, the Main things I can identify as issues are the small piece of metal missing from the clutch, the bearing is mia as is the E clip, now what exactly caused these is unknown but it all went down fairly quickly
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  #56  
Old 10-30-2020, 12:01 PM
HyperMOA HyperMOA is offline
 
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Did the dealer toss the bearing and clip upon disassembly? A failed bearing does not just disappear.
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  #57  
Old 10-30-2020, 01:01 PM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Did the dealer toss the bearing and clip upon disassembly? A failed bearing does not just disappear.
The clip wasnít anywhere to be found when I pulled the plastic cover off, as stated earlier there was a few small pieces of metal that fell out when I opened it up, at that point I just put the cover back on and brought it in figuring they would honour their warranty, it wasnít like I had done anything irregular.
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  #58  
Old 10-30-2020, 08:56 PM
HyperMOA HyperMOA is offline
 
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Originally Posted by slough shark View Post
The clip wasnít anywhere to be found when I pulled the plastic cover off, as stated earlier there was a few small pieces of metal that fell out when I opened it up, at that point I just put the cover back on and brought it in figuring they would honour their warranty, it wasnít like I had done anything irregular.
I agree, but did they remove the bearing?
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  #59  
Old 10-30-2020, 09:12 PM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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I agree, but did they remove the bearing?
I honestly couldnít tell you, I didnít remove it, they never mentioned it in their invoice and they didnít put it back in everything they gave back to me. They didnít mention a word of it in their entire diagnosis, neither did they mention the E clip and those 2 pieces were not in the stuff they gave back to me. I know for a fact 100% the E clip was gone, I canít say 100% the same about the bearing but several pieces of metal fell out and thatís the only thing that could have produced that metal.
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  #60  
Old 10-31-2020, 03:27 AM
224MV 224MV is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeGuy View Post
224MV. You obviously know saws, but I must respectfully disagree with your opinion here (please keep in mind that this opinion is worth exactly the cost of the paper itís written on. Lol)

If you look at the clutch pic again, youíll see the broken off piece at approximately the 1:00 position. You should also take note of the heavy pitting on the edge of the clutch drum, yet the internals are perfectly unscathed. A pure bearing failure would look different, no? Blowing up from the centre...

Further, if you look closer at the scratches at the 10:00 position of the crank casing, youíll notice how deeply the cuts are and how the plastic has been ripped upwards violently TOWARD the crank. Thatís not even mentioning the other damage. Classic evidence of something metallic being wound in and around a crank shaft.

Iíve pointed SS to a quality dealer Iíve had over 20 years of dealings with as a ĎHail Maryí. With all that being said, it most certainly doesnít mean that the damage is directly related to the clutch failure. But it sure as hell gives the dealer a damn good reason to not honour the warranty. Hopefully it works out. Ultimate though, the evidence clearly suggests that something ugly got sucked through that saw. It happens. Iíve done worse. Haha.

Tree


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Treeguy, you obviously know saws as well and good on you for taking the time to look at the saw and helping out a fellow AO member. Youíve been able to look at the saw so Iíd say your opinion is quite valuable.
I would think that if something did get sucked in there to cause that much friction and heat that it would of still been in there, like wrapped around the crankshaft kind of thing. Hard to say though.
The marks on the clutch drum I thought might of been caused from it hitting the Torx screw for the oil pump closest to the bar studs but I canít tell for sure by the pictures.
I hope it works out for SS with the warranty but I have my doubts. Iím not sure if a clutch drum bearing failure would qualify under warranty but I was hoping to give him some good ammunition for when he took his saw back in

Lots of great posts from everyone on this one
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