To Crossbow or not to crossbow - That is the question!

[CNP]

Okotokian
Seems simple. If I owned a bow I'd be voting no, but I don't, so will be voting yes. It's all self-interest, either way. I have to draw for mulies and antlerless elk in the WMU I hunt... so should the bow hunters. And I can ABSOLUTELY see why bow hunters would want no changes to anything.

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I'm not sure I know which group you are calling greedy and selfish. Do you mean the bow hunters who don't want to share their season with anyone else?

The only self interest going on is that of the hunter who uses a rifle, observes that another segment of the hunter population using a bow has more opportunity to hunt. The correct response to this is: Buy a bow. The people who hunt with a bow get that. They buy a bow, practice and go hunting. Hunters who use a bow are certainly not selfish or greedy....they see an opportunity and invest in it. It's just like capitalism and I know that capitalism is alive and well (as it should be) in Alberta. While on the otherhand, SOME guys who insist on using nothing but a rifle, want to deny hunters who invest in a bow any special consideration (lets call them the hunter socialists). It's the same thing as Canadians being told that we no longer should say MERRY CHRISTMAS or proudly sing our anthem or invoke God. The status quo that is working is simply not good enough for some of us (becuase it isn't working for them personally). SOME guys want to divide hunters by sub-classifying us (hunters who use a rifle vs hunters who use a bow). Divided we fail. Choose your weapon from the regs and from that you are given a season and a draw or general tag.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by A7ELK

Funny guy
Even if it is 75% of 12 year olds, so be it.
Maybe bow hunters shouldn`t have an age limit. Maybe the rules should be: you have to have the ability to pull 50 lbs before you can bow hunt.
Decrepit people should NOT be hunting.
There does come a time when you have to say enough is enough. Drs. taking drivers lcences away is a good example.

Okay. A7ELK I'll come clean with you. I've been sledding all day and I've had a few wobbly pops. I'm messing around a bit but my point is this...

Allot of what I've read on this forum leads me to believe that there are few compound/longbow hunters that know anything about.....A. what the capabilities of of a crossbow are, and,.......B. What hunting with a crossbow is like. They only have their imagination to rely on and everyone imagines at various degrees. Being an experienced crossbow hunter allot of what I read is nothing short of ridiculous.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Mountain Guy, Yes a crossbow has to be tuned. You can have the same type of fiber optic sights that you would find on a compound bow or a scope that needs to be sighted in just like a rifle scope. I have a red dot scope that is set for 30 yds but I only practice out to 40 yds because I found that my 150 lb crossbow did not have enough penetrating power after that.

With my red dot I have to practice every year just like anyone else to determine where my bolt will hit at 10, 20, 30 (zero) and 40 yds. At 10 yds my bolt hits high enough to make a big difference and at 40 yds it has dropped off ALLOT from zero. I don't have the option of putting my sight on a deer at 40 yds and I have to judge my holdover. But that is the choice that I made with that particular type of scope.

Apparently they now have scopes specific to certain draw weights of crossbows with BDC type recticles that have hash marks for various distances. That's not my thing and I can't tell you anything about them.

I've got one of those Dave. Excalibur Exomax. 225# draw weight. The scope (Excalibur Drop-Zone) has a BDC type reticle (5 aiming points). Zeroed at 30 yards the bottom hash mark is dead on at 60 yards. I like the scope......you can adjust the reticle for any trajectory by dialing in the chronographed arrow speed.

I'm a NO voter....but you already know that

[A7ELK]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Okay. A7ELK I'll come clean with you. I've been sledding all day and I've had a few wobbly pops. I'm messing around a bit but my point is this...

Allot of what I've read on this forum leads me to believe that there are few compound/longbow hunters that know anything about.....A. what the capabilities of of a crossbow are, and,.......B. What hunting with a crossbow is like. They only have their imagination to rely on and everyone imagines at various degrees. Being an experienced crossbow hunter allot of what I read is nothing short of ridiculous.

That's OK and wobbly pops are good for you!!!
My original question was just. What OTHER people
I guess there really isn't other people that need to get into xbow hunting. the ones that need to use an xbow are already using them.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ehntr

I've got one of those Dave. Excalibur Exomax. 225# draw weight. The scope (Excalibur Drop-Zone) has a BDC type reticle (5 aiming points). Zeroed at 30 yards the bottom hash mark is dead on at 60 yards. I like the scope......you can adjust the reticle for any trajectory by dialing in the chronographed arrow speed.

I'm a NO voter....but you already know that

Why don't you lend it to me the last week of September/first week of October next year and I'll let you know how it works on a moose? I only hunt out to 40 yds with mine but I could have got one this year with yours.

I can hit the target +/-1" at 50 yds but what about the penetration? Mine....feggaddaboutit.

Get your snow cleared yet?

[pottymouth]

For those of you who already voted, how and where did it show up on AlbertaRelm ( did just pop up, or is it under a specific section??)......nobody I know has got it yet?

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

For those of you who already voted, how and where did it show up on AlbertaRelm ( did just pop up, or is it under a specific section??)......nobody I know has got it yet?

I have yet to recieve mine and none of my buddys have got one yet!!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

For those of you who already voted, how and where did it show up on AlbertaRelm ( did just pop up, or is it under a specific section??)......nobody I know has got it yet?

I got mine in an email yesterday. Someone (Sheephunter?) farther back on the thread said that they will be doing them in batches. You'll get yours.

How ya gonna vote?

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I got mine in an email yesterday. Someone (Sheephunter?) farther back on the thread said that they will be doing them in batches. You'll get yours.

How ya gonna vote?

It all depends who slips me the most cash, under the table !

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by A7ELK

My original question was just. What OTHER people
I guess there really isn't other people that need to get into xbow hunting. the ones that need to use an xbow are already using them.

That's a VERY good point!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

It all depends who slips me the most cash, under the table !

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Okay. A7ELK I'll come clean with you. I've been sledding all day and I've had a few wobbly pops. I'm messing around a bit but my point is this...

Allot of what I've read on this forum leads me to believe that there are few compound/longbow hunters that know anything about.....A. what the capabilities of of a crossbow are, and,.......B. What hunting with a crossbow is like. They only have their imagination to rely on and everyone imagines at various degrees. Being an experienced crossbow hunter allot of what I read is nothing short of ridiculous.

So Dave, you say noone knows what they are talking about, but you are an experienced xbow hand and really do know that all these guys are wrong.... Care to show off any field photos that are capable of backing up your "super slammer experienced xbow hunter stance" ??? You should have a BIG BUNCH of field photos, as simple as it would be for ANY experienced archer to kill ANYTHING with a crossgun...

[madatter]

Originally Posted by minimanyletters

I also had a very interesting conversation today about how the length of an arrow (for archery) as per the regulations had to be 24 inches long so if the shot is poor the arrow can be removed while the animal is running. with the length of average crossbow bolts being 14-16 inches, if the bolt does not pass all the way through in the case of a gut shot that is not mortally wounding you now have an animal running around with a bolt in it suffering until it dies of starvation or something.

Also bowhunting is supposed to be a challenge of getting close to an animal (no matter what the species) and harvesting it. I just dont see how being 100+ yards from an animal and shooting it with a crossbow is archery o is even close to the same objective.

You really think that anybody is gonna be shooting and hitting at 100 yards with an X bolt?
Really?
Wow I gotta get me one of them!
Strong,silent,long distance killers!

[madatter]

Originally Posted by ehntr

The only self interest going on is that of the hunter who uses a rifle, observes that another segment of the hunter population using a bow has more opportunity to hunt. The correct response to this is: Buy a bow. The people who hunt with a bow get that. They buy a bow, practice and go hunting. Hunters who use a bow are certainly not selfish or greedy....they see an opportunity and invest in it. It's just like capitalism and I know that capitalism is alive and well (as it should be) in Alberta. While on the otherhand, SOME guys who insist on using nothing but a rifle, want to deny hunters who invest in a bow any special consideration (lets call them the hunter socialists). It's the same thing as Canadians being told that we no longer should say MERRY CHRISTMAS or proudly sing our anthem or invoke God. The status quo that is working is simply not good enough for some of us (becuase it isn't working for them personally). SOME guys want to divide hunters by sub-classifying us (hunters who use a rifle vs hunters who use a bow). Divided we fail. Choose your weapon from the regs and from that you are given a season and a draw or general tag.

By the same token the status quo "is" working for bow hunters.....so why change?
If there is a growing number of people who want to use an xbolt as their hunting tool I cannot understand why there cannot be some type of season for them.....
Just because it's not the "tool" you would use does not make it fair to be excluded completely.......

[Hornaholic]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Hunter success surveys from SRD will start being emailed out today. In the survey there is a question on whether you agree or disagree with crossbows in archery season. Your vote will decide the future, so here is a chance to make your voice heard.

Well for starters I havent heard anything of the sort; I really dont think they will ever open a cross-bow season; If it was to happen the only peave i would have is that our deer # will drop - not from harvested deer but wounded deer; Any good bow hunter would go up any day against a cross-Bow hunter; I think know that there is some upcoming changes from SRD but I think it is for a primitive weapon season in certain WMU'S ( Which includes X-bows); it will not be during archery season but after.. just my 2 cents..

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Hornaholic

Well for starters I havent heard anything of the sort; I really dont think they will ever open a cross-bow season; If it was to happen the only peave i would have is that our deer # will drop - not from harvested deer but wounded deer; Any good bow hunter would go up any day against a cross-Bow hunter; I think know that there is some upcoming changes from SRD but I think it is for a primitive weapon season in certain WMU'S ( Which includes X-bows); it will not be during archery season but after.. just my 2 cents..

No, the survey was about success rates for the tags that you purchased and the last question was about including crossbows during archery season. I received the email survey on Friday.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ehntr

While on the otherhand, SOME guys who insist on using nothing but a rifle, want to deny hunters who invest in a bow any special consideration (lets call them the hunter socialists).

That sounds similar to...........Some guys who insist on using nothing but a BOW, want to deny crossbow hunters any consideration.

[madatter]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

That sounds similar to...........Some guys who insist on using nothing but a BOW, want to deny crossbow hunters any consideration.

That does seem to be the case.....

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

So Dave, you say noone knows what they are talking about, but you are an experienced xbow hand and really do know that all these guys are wrong.... Care to show off any field photos that are capable of backing up your "super slammer experienced xbow hunter stance" ??? You should have a BIG BUNCH of field photos, as simple as it would be for ANY experienced archer to kill ANYTHING with a crossgun...

No packhuntr that's not what I'm saying at all. There are allot of people that are knowledgeable about crossbows....experienced hunting with them, maybe not. But some of the postings on here regarding a crossbow's capabilities are right out to lunch.

I never claimed that I was a "super slammer (whatever)". My only claim is that I hunt with a crossbow and I have that experience to bring to the table. This past Fall I did not get anything with my crossbow. My buck didn't show up and the moose that I called in twice stayed behind a tree one time and hung up out of range (50 yds) the second. I could have taken a ton of does but that was not what I was hunting for.

As far as field photos, I'm not sure that I even have any. I don't carry a camera with me when I hunt so I certainly haven't taken any. A few guys that I've hunted with have taken pictures but I'd have to look for them. If you expect record book deer and moose you'll be disappointed though.

as simple as it would be for ANY experienced archer to kill ANYTHING with a crossgun...
I don't know where you got that from.My position is that based on my experience with a crossbow, it's not allot different from hunting with a compound bow other than not having to draw it before taking a shot.

[packhuntr]

Dave, you say its not much different of a tool than a muscular powered bow. That simply is NOT the case. Im not going to get long winded, but suffice it to say that if you were a SUCCESSFUL ARCHER, you would have direct and definite knowledge pertaining to differences between the two in the field, and ones unquestionable advanced performance/results capabilities with the xbow. I had a feeling youd have a picture of a moose and some does. I was actually waiting for a picture of a cow moose, believe it or not!

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Dave, you say its not much different of a tool than a muscular powered bow. That simply is NOT the case. Im not going to get long winded, but suffice it to say that if you were a SUCCESSFUL ARCHER, you would have direct and definite knowledge pertaining to differences between the two in the field, and ones unquestionable advanced performance/results capabilities with the xbow. I had a feeling youd have a picture of a moose and some does. I was actually waiting for a picture of a cow moose, believe it or not!

And the belittling begins yet again....ugh.

[packhuntr]

Its not belittling, if it appears that way, sorry I think. I could go squirt some b.s. on a stock car website, try to promote major change and hope no one sorts out the fact that ive had little to do with race cars. There are some hard facts being dismissed by alot of people as nothing more than something being made up for the sake of an argument.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Dave, you say its not much different of a tool than a muscular powered bow. That simply is NOT the case. Im not going to get long winded, but suffice it to say that if you were a SUCCESSFUL ARCHER, you would have direct and definite knowledge pertaining to differences between the two in the field, and ones unquestionable advanced performance/results capabilities with the xbow. I had a feeling youd have a picture of a moose and some does. I was actually waiting for a picture of a cow moose, believe it or not!

Yup, that's my opinion based on my experience hunting with both a compound bow and now a crossbow. I'd like to think that I have definite knowledge pertaining to the two in the field. I would not say that "ones unquestionable advanced performance/results capabilities with the xbow." Both have their limitations. One example is that in terms of arrow energy/penetration, my opinion is that an arrow is better than a bolt. If you have a differing opinion based on your experience I'd like to hear it.

IMO, You put away too much emphasis on pictures and the type of animals that you shoot. What's wrong with does and cow moose? They are tasty. I hunt for the enjoyment and the meat. Antlers are nice to look at but they are a little tough to chew on. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get a big buck or bull moose but that's not the end all to everything.

So in your opinion any archer that takes animals without antlers is not a successful hunter? I can't say that I see it that way.

[elkhunter11]

Like every other weapon used for hunting,there is a wide range of models of crossbows available,and their capabilities vary dramatically.
Checking out the 400+fps PSE TAC15 crossbow,and the groups that people are shooting with them at distances out to 100 yards,it makes me wonder what the effective range of a crossbow really is for hunting big game.Apparently some people in the USA are already trying to have them banned from the archery seasons that currently allow crossbows,because of the increased range and accuracy at long range.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...-review-59006/

[BigRackLover]

Facts:

From the Alberta Hunting regulations 2010:

"An authorized bow is one that is held, drawn and released by muscular power and has a draw weight of not less than 18 kg (40 lb.).

From Wikipedia:

"A crossbow is a weapon consisting of a bow mounted on a stock that shoots projectiles ..."

From a patent about the crossbow trigger:

"A crossbow trigger whose features include only a unitary leaf spring, without the help of coiled springs, whose four end portions clamp a crossbow bolt on a crossbow stock, bias the crossbow's sight, bias the crossbow's finger lever, and prevent accidental disengagement of the crossbow's trigger safety. A stop plate is provided on the crossbow trigger's sear to automatically provide a proper space between the rear end of a crossbow bolt and the portion of the bowstring held by the cocked trigger."

It's because of the facts above that crossbows cannot belong in the general archery season with other bows. Clearly, a crossgun is more gun than anything. A trigger & stock are the key differences. Yes, compound bows have a mechanical release (trigger), but the trigger does not hold the string back, your arm (muscle) does. A stock can easialy adapt bipods to stabalize and hold the weapon (again preventing muscle fatigue), a vertical bow does not have this advantage possibility.

Crossguns are not archery equipment and thus do not belong in archery seasons.


Other non-factual stuff for this thread:

Personally, I know of several times when I drew my compound bow back, but had to let down because of muscle fatigue - those animals got away. I cannot think of a situation where I had to let down my gun stock down within 50 yards of the game I was after (although bullets can plow through brush where arrows (or bolts) cannot).

Stated already but very neat and simple: "Since all the comparisions about crossbows vs current authorized bows are 'pretty much the same', then use an authorized bow." I just don't think the majority of people need crossbows to take advantage of the archery seasons.

Speaking from experience, the biggest problem with low harvest numbers from the bowzones (212,248) and adjacent WMUs is access, not weapons. Many of the landowners I've asked don't want hunters PERIOD (no matter what weapon). Their land, their choice.

I'd like to know who's really pushing this proposal? Somehow, somewhere - I think money is driving this (aka - manufacturers). Who proposed this rule change and why?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Like every other weapon used for hunting,there is a wide range of models of crossbows available,and their capabilities vary dramatically.

That's a very good point elkhunter11 and I don't think that it's been mentioned on this thread yet.

I hunt with a Barnett Commando with a 150 lb pull. It's a straight string model not the compound model. I have practiced and was accurate out to 50 yds with it but I won't shoot past 40 yds because it looses too much energy and penetrating power past that. With practice I might be able to lob a bolt into a target at 100 yds but it wouldn't penetrate very far. Certainly not enough to shoot a deer at that distance.

I know that there are allot of bigger, stronger crossbows out there that are capable of reaching out farther but 30 yds or less with my crossbow is the optimum distance.

Maybe putting a minimum and maximum pull restriction on crossbows is a good alternative.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Yup, that's my opinion based on my experience hunting with both a compound bow and now a crossbow. I'd like to think that I have definite knowledge pertaining to the two in the field. I would not say that "ones unquestionable advanced performance/results capabilities with the xbow." Both have their limitations. One example is that in terms of arrow energy/penetration, my opinion is that an arrow is better than a bolt. If you have a differing opinion based on your experience I'd like to hear it.

IMO, You put away too much emphasis on pictures and the type of animals that you shoot. What's wrong with does and cow moose? They are tasty. I hunt for the enjoyment and the meat. Antlers are nice to look at but they are a little tough to chew on. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to get a big buck or bull moose but that's not the end all to everything.

So in your opinion any archer that takes animals without antlers is not a successful hunter? I can't say that I see it that way.

I have to appologize for the moose and doe comment. All I was trying to get at is that if folks havent logged any time with game inside ANY bow's effective range, and do not know what one "CAN get away with, and what one CANNOT", how can any supposed understanding of the act of archery hunting and killing animals with this equipment be argued. It doesnt nessesarily apply to anyone here, I am merely argueing the validity/merits of some of the arguments displayed in the last 10 or so odd pages here. This is a very big deal right now, I would really hope that people actually have an understanding of what they are voting on, and its not based on the ever prevelent "I want it, and right now" attitude.

[elkhunter11]

Maybe putting a minimum and maximum pull restriction on crossbows is a good alternative.

A maximum draw weight on crossbows would seem unfair to some people.It would be like putting a velocity limit on rifles.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I have to appologize for the moose and doe comment. All I was trying to get at is that if folks havent logged any time with game inside ANY bow's effective range, and do not know what one "CAN get away with, and what one CANNOT", how can any supposed understanding of the act of archery hunting and killing animals with this equipment be argued. It doesnt nessesarily apply to anyone here, I am merely argueing the validity/merits of some of the arguments displayed in the last 10 or so odd pages here. This is a very big deal right now, I would really hope that people actually have an understanding of what they are voting on, and its not based on the ever prevelent "I want it, and right now" attitude.

Okay I agree 100% with people needing to know/not knowing the strengths and limitations of BOTH types of tools. I am merely trying to clear up allot of misconceptions by bringing my opinion/facts to the table based on my experience.

I also hope that people will make an informed decision when completing the survey and not an emotional one. In the end I think that, like everything else in life, most people will vote for what's best for themselves.

[Tony_S]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

it's not allot different from hunting with a compound bow other than not having to draw it before taking a shot.

Maybe it's the type of hunting you do...or the manner in which you hunt Dave, I'm not sure. But this one single difference that you seem to regard as minor (amongst others) is HUGE!!
I'm a BIG proponent of 'Spot and Stalk' Bow hunting myself, it's pretty much the only type of Bow hunting I do. Anyways....I can't even count the number of Deer, both White Tail and Mule bucks where I could have had GUARANTEED KILLS with a Crossbow....but I got busted drawing my Bow.
No way in hell you'll ever convince me, or 99% of Bow hunters there's only a minor difference between the two. Ain't gonna happen.