To Crossbow or not to crossbow - That is the question!

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by AbAngler

Here's mine. Excalibur Phoenix.

Looks just like mine! My fletching is different though .

[AbAngler]

Originally Posted by ghglenn

Hey AbAngler, nice Excal. It looks like it has the Varizone Scope on it. So, I will assume you dialed it in per the specs...using 20 yds as your zero. With only 5 crosshairs, how do you make your 70 yard kills, being that the farthest hair is set at 50 yds?

Lol! Yes it is zeroed at 20. The furthest I've shot at targets is 50 yards. Pretty accurate, but not a whole lot more then my PSE X-Force TS.....

If xbows are made legal in bow season, I'm taking both up the stand for fun.

[garand]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

it will have an impact on harvest for sure....but not because the weapon is more deadly....simply because the number of archers will go up. simple math really. with a success rate of 15% (est) by doubling the number of guys hunting, the number of dead animals will double. most already agree with that.

So if harvest doubles, will a draw during archery handle that increased demand or will the rifle seasons be impacted too? I have used my old military rifles during a rifle season as it stands and accepted that I am handicapped compared to guys with modern equipment, maybe I need to start howling for inclusion in the archery season too?

Would including crossbows and a draw mean increased tags to outfitters?

How are landowners going to receive the added pressure of a double in the bow hunting groups if crossbows are included?

I can understand the idea of wanting an opportunity to use a different tool to hunt. I just have a problem with the way it is being tabled.

Give me some solid info form the government and then ask the question. Till then the answer is no.

[HunterDave]

No one can know for sure what impact allowing crossbows in archery season would have, but there's some good info posted on this thread about what the stats are in some of the states in the US that already allow crossbows. From what I've read the impact seems negligible. I suppose that we could draw our own conclusions from their experience.

[Stinky Coyote]

i would hope the management does their usual job of managing the numbers of hunters etc. leaving the management questions aside the crossbow fits where the compound does and bowhunters would get a one size/strenth fits all tool for the situations where that could come in handy ie; introducing people, for weaker/smaller/older/banged up etc. bowhunting wouldn't be just for those able to draw a bow....it would be for those AND the minorities who can't or really struggle to draw a bow and would do away with the need for handicap permits on the issue etc.

we can start a new thread to help the managers decide how they should manage the seasons should they decide the crossbow is an under utilized tool that fits where compounds fit

i would think bowzones would be safe of draws still as access is the limiting factor in these zones, however, i would leave it to the managers to count the bow permits they sell and study their survey results and make their plans for the coming year on what needs draws and what doesn't....

end of day the crossbow fits where compounds fit, lets get it there and then let the managers do their job!

[garand]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

end of day the crossbow fits where compounds fit, lets get it there and then let the managers do their job!

I will agree to disagree Stinky, I would much rather have some of this figured before we proceed so we don't have to revisit it a hundred times.

And don't place too much credence on the managers, with the budgets being gutted to the point they are they are just trying to survive.

Maybe some discussion on how we cope with that on the hunter survey would have been a tad more important than this issue.

Thanks for the discussion guys.

I think the fact that the survey says that some species will be put on draw is a good indication that game managers have considered what the ramifications of including crossbows would be. Draws control the number of hunters and the harvest. Seems to me like they've thought it out and have a plan.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by garand

So if harvest doubles, will a draw during archery handle that increased demand or will the rifle seasons be impacted too? I have used my old military rifles during a rifle season as it stands and accepted that I am handicapped compared to guys with modern equipment, maybe I need to start howling for inclusion in the archery season too?

i dont know. the way it has been explained is that they calculate the number of archers (base on surveys) and determine the harvest rate. i understand it is calculated on % of hunters and % of harvest, and then draws are determined to try to meet harvest goals....at least thats how its been said. maybe one of our bios could explain it better if that doesnt make sense. anyway, if bowhunters double, then success would follow and draw numbers would be calculated i suppose. as far as whether the draw would be archery specific or rifle specific....srd hasnt given any indication that i have heard,

Would including crossbows and a draw mean increased tags to outfitters?

again, noone has said....but i sincerely doubt it based solely on th nagative publicity that would generate from residents. thats just a guess....i could be wrong
How are landowners going to receive the added pressure of a double in the bow hunting groups if crossbows are included?

I can understand the idea of wanting an opportunity to use a different tool to hunt. I just have a problem with the way it is being tabled.

Give me some solid info form the government and then ask the question. Till then the answer is no.

there has been all the sloid info you could absorb in several of these threads. the tool has been a part of archery seasons for over 30 years in other parts of north america, so there woukld be no new ground broken here. the results are clear....a crossbow is no more effective at killing game than a vertical bow. by all means if you are late to this topic, go back through all the threads on it. there is a ton of info to be learned if you wish to.

[Stinky Coyote]

i agree Sheep, i would think a tool move would be a rather huge deal and tons of stuff for the managers to consider and implement and would need close monitoring and adjusting the first few years until settled in and bugs worked out etc. i doubt this would be taken lightly and just thrown together

[garand]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

there has been all the sloid info you could absorb in several of these threads. the tool has been a part of archery seasons for over 30 years in other parts of north america, so there woukld be no new ground broken here. the results are clear....a crossbow is no more effective at killing game than a vertical bow. by all means if you are late to this topic, go back through all the threads on it. there is a ton of info to be learned if you wish to.

Mostly hype and opinion.
It does not resemble my personal experience.

I may look into researching it further, and if I had known that this were going to be voted on in a srd harvest survey I would have looked into more solid data that a bunch of opinions on an outdoor forum. who know with the

Given that, I just don't know how anyone being asked the question who has not had the benefit of studying the data or some personal experiences with both could vote anything but no or neutral. And I am guessing that is the majority of the folks who will receive the survey.

Sorry fellas, that is my opinion. But don't worry I am just one vote. Maybe my wife and kids will vote for it, we have independent thinkers in our house!

Thanks again for the discussion.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by garand

Mostly hype and opinion.
It does not resemble my personal experience.

.

skim the hype and opinion and follow the links provided to actual real world data. those are facts and not hype at all.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Because you think that you might have to go to draw on allot of animals that you hunt. Isn't that what you stated earlier?

In all fairness ehntr, have you ever hunted with your crossbow?

I left a question for you a few pages back regarding your opinion of whether or not a crossbow would be able to kill a deer at 100 yds. Based on your experience compound bow hunting, would a bolt from your crossbow reach a deer at 100 yds before it flinched from the noise of the crossbow? How long does it take to travel the 100 yds and would you take that shot at a deer?

Seriously, I'd like to know because with my little 150# crossbow I wouldn't think about doing it.

H.D.
you go on & on & on &on & on about how the x-bow is less effective than the other bows.
When are you going to get that THAT isn;t the issue here with lots of us.
It's been said numerous times that argument is moot.
There's tons of other weapons that could be deemed as less effective than archery equipment. Irrelevant.
Maybe it's time to switch gears and jump on the SELFISH bandwagon for awhile to get my interest again

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

H.D.
you go on & on & on &on & on about how the x-bow is less effective than the other bows.
When are you going to get that THAT isn;t the issue here with lots of us.
It's been said numerous times that argument is moot.
There's tons of other weapons that could be deemed as less effective than archery equipment. Irrelevant.
Maybe it's time to switch gears and jump on the SELFISH bandwagon for awhile to get my interest again

Apparently the capabilities of a crossbow is still an issue. People keep commenting on it and I keep replying to their comments. Perhaps to allot of us the point is moot but obviously to them it is not. You wouldn't be too surprised if someone told you that allot of people don't bother reading the entire thread before posting would you? That's the main reason why allot of the info on here keeps getting regurgitated.

As far as the selfish bandwagon goes for me, the perception that some general tags might go to draw is the main issue. Perhaps some compound bowhunters don't want the competition from crossbow hunters either. You can call it selfish or whatever you want but that's my opinion on what the main issue is and everything else is just FLUFF.

If the survey had stated that there would be no effect on tag allocations or bag limits then everything else regarding whether or not a crossbow belongs in an archery only season, it's capabilities, would have been a non-issue. The only people that would have been complaining are the compound bow hunters that are worried about the competition but I think that a significant number of compound bow hunters wouldn't even have cared.

Is that selfish bandwagon enough for ya?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Apparently the capabilities of a crossbow is still an issue. People keep commenting on it and I keep replying to their comments. Perhaps to allot of us the point is moot but obviously to them it is not. You wouldn't be too surprised if someone told you that allot of people don't bother reading the entire thread before posting would you? That's the main reason why allot of the info on here keeps getting regurgitated.

As far as the selfish bandwagon goes for me, the perception that some general tags might go to draw is the main issue. Perhaps some compound bowhunters don't want the competition from crossbow hunters either. You can call it selfish or whatever you want but that's my opinion on what the main issue is and everything else is just FLUFF.

If the survey had stated that there would be no effect on tag allocations or bag limits then everything else regarding whether or not a crossbow belongs in an archery only season, it's capabilities, would have been a non-issue. The only people that would have been complaining are the compound bow hunters that are worried about the competition but I think that a significant number of compound bow hunters wouldn't even have cared.

Is that selfish bandwagon enough for ya?

Funny how ''competition' gets mentioned, ''some bow hunters don't want competition from crossbows'' and so on.
That may be the case for some....but let me put a different twist to that comment.
Does any hunter like competition?? If you want to go there.... then I'll go out on a limb and say that most hunters on this site don't want or like competition
So really..... why is that even part of this argument

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Funny how ''competition' gets mentioned, ''some bow hunters don't want competition from crossbows'' and so on.
That may be the case for some....but let me put a different twist to that comment.
Does any hunter like competition?? If you want to go there.... then I'll go out on a limb and say that most hunters on this site don't want or like competition
So really..... why is that even part of this argument

That's exactly what I'm saying. Most people don't want competition when it comes to hunting and I'm sure that most compound bow hunters are the same as everyone else. They don't want it either. We are in total agreement on that.

But, I think that there is stronger opposition to crossbows by compound bowhunters because of the possibility of bag limits being reduced and general tags going to draw. Competition is secondary to that. If you took those two issues off of the table the compound bow hunters wouldn't care less about crossbows use during archery season. That's why I say that all the rest of the issues about; do crossbows belong, their capabilities, etc (ad nausium) is nothing more than FLUFF!

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

I'm not ashamed one bit!
Actually I quite enjoy it, being out in the fields and forests, watching all kinds of critters, sometimes being in the right place at the right time and everything goes just right and the tag gets cut ......... the tool I'm using is just secondary to the hunt experience, whether it be my recurve, my crossBOW, my shotgun, or rifle.

BitRunner, your belittling attitude is just ............ sad. May you (and those who share your attitude) be blessed with being able to enjoy your vertical bows and the hunting experience you have with them forever - sincerely, I mean that

I Enyoy the out doors as well so do all of us, Weather we are using a rifle,bow,cross bow what ever. All i am saying and continue to say is Number 1- They are not a bow and should not be in allowed in bow season.
2- My opioion is exactly as my post says, I would be ashamed to say i killed
that beautiful buck with my bow in archery season when in fact i shot it out of my gun that shoots arrows Oh a cross bow.
3- i appreciate your attitude towards the post Have a great day

[CNP]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

I'd be careful with that statement. The compound guys have a lot of fancy gadgets as well, with your peep sights, trigger releases and such. I think a true bow hunter was the recurve guys, so maybe you should be ashamed of yourself. I still think archery should be on draw with all the new technology in the bows. Looking at some of the bow kill pics there is some really big animals taken, now if you put it on a draw maybe some of those animals will get even bigger with less pressure. So why not put Xbow in with compound, because the compound guys have an edge over the recurve guys. It sounds like a lot of selfish compound guys. So for the betterment of the game put it on draw!!!

That's your vision of a true bowhunter lol. Are you a true gunhunter? You slay critters with a musket dressed in a buckskin loin cloth? "True hunter" stuff is just fodder for an argument. There goes that selfish stuff again...........I think it's envy on your part.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

1. Because you think that you might have to go to draw on allot of animals that you hunt. Isn't that what you stated earlier?

2. In all fairness ehntr, have you ever hunted with your crossbow?

3. I left a question for you a few pages back regarding your opinion of whether or not a crossbow would be able to kill a deer at 100 yds. Based on your experience compound bow hunting, would a bolt from your crossbow reach a deer at 100 yds before it flinched from the noise of the crossbow? How long does it take to travel the 100 yds and would you take that shot at a deer?

Seriously, I'd like to know because with my little 150# crossbow I wouldn't think about doing it.

1. Yes

2. No

3. I have no experience shooting deer at 100 yards with any bow. However, if I were targeting a deer 100 yards away and the deer was not alerted to my presence, I wouldn't expect it to jump the string as they say. 350 FPS on release, I would expect it to average at least 300 FPS after 100 yards downrange. So lets say 1 second. I would take that shot if I could use my bipod or something else to rest the xbow on and I had my scope set-up to take that shot . If you practiced that shot, why not? Using a compound I would not take the shot, it would be a hail-mary. Same thing as a rifle............I'd shoot a deer at 300 yards using a rest.......not off-hand though.......I wouldn't hit anything 300 yards away without a rest for my rifle. Try using a bipod or rest with your xbow.....makes a big difference. A three legged Bogpod from a blind would work well or a shooting rail on a treestand. I have a three legged Bogpod under the tree (Christmas tree lol).

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ehntr

I have no experience shooting deer at 100 yards with any bow. However, if I were targeting a deer 100 yards away and the deer was not alerted to my presence, I wouldn't expect it to jump the string as they say. 350 FPS on release, I would expect it to average at least 300 FPS after 100 yards downrange. So lets say 1 second. I would take that shot if I could use my bipod or something else to rest the xbow on and I had my scope set-up to take that shot . If you practiced that shot, why not? Using a compound I would not take the shot, it would be a hail-mary. Same thing as a rifle............I'd shoot a deer at 300 yards using a rest.......not off-hand though.......I wouldn't hit anything 300 yards away without a rest for my rifle. Try using a bipod or rest with your xbow.....makes a big difference. A three legged Bogpod from a blind would work well or a shooting rail on a treestand. I have a three legged Bogpod under the tree (Christmas tree lol).

Finally! I was beginning to think that you were ignoring me. I gotta see this crossbow in action. A shot with my 150 #er would be a Hail Mary and IMO would take longer than 1 second to reach the target. That's why I was so interested. Perhaps it's time to update my crossbow.

How come you can't make an accurate 300 yd shot with your rifle without a rest? Us Army guys can do it.

[pottymouth]

I'm trying to understand the " yes " guys here!

How does adding draws to the archery season, increase hunters and hunting oppoturnity . ????

[packhuntr]

Lets hope some of the pro Xbow spokesmen here do not become Xbow salesmen,,, some pretty sad stuff. If I were in that court, Id lobby to have afew Xbow "spokesmen" banned on here, temporarily of course, at least until this thing blows over.

[steve]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I'm trying to understand the " yes " guys here!

How does adding draws to the archery season, increase hunters and hunting oppoturnity . ????

Yup, pretty sad isn't it...

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I'm trying to understand the " yes " guys here!

How does adding draws to the archery season, increase hunters and hunting oppoturnity . ????

Keep asking myself the same question, Have not got the answer yet mabey the infident wisdom from one of them will let us no.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I'm trying to understand the " yes " guys here!

How does adding draws to the archery season, increase hunters and hunting oppoturnity . ????

I can't comment on what any other "yes" guy are thinking but......

I think that the possibility of adding draws because of including crossbows into archery only season is very low. Initially there may be an increase of hunters in archery season but I predict that those numbers will decrease significantly once people realize that hunting with a crossbow is not quite as easy as they thought it would be. I also doubt that the success rates of newbies with crossbows will be high enough to warrant turning some general species into draw. The tool is only as effective as the person hunting with it.

If you take adding draws to archery season off of the table, by adding crossbow to archery season, you are adding the opportunity for the young, the old and anyone else that can't draw a compound bow due to an injury that doesn't meet the standards to qualify for a crossbow permit.

Also, although not mentioned in your post, it provides variety for all hunters by adding another tool with which to hunt.

[steve]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I can't comment on what any other "yes" guy are thinking but......

I think that the possibility of adding draws because of including crossbows into archery only season is very low. Initially there may be an increase of hunters in archery season but I predict that those numbers will decrease significantly once people realize that hunting with a crossbow is not quite as easy as they thought it would be. I also doubt that the success rates of newbies with crossbows will be high enough to warrant turning some general species into draw. The tool is only as effective as the person hunting with it.

If you take adding draws to archery season off of the table, by adding crossbow to archery season, you are adding the opportunity for the young, the old and anyone else that can't draw a compound bow due to an injury that doesn't meet the standards to qualify for a crossbow permit.

Also, although not mentioned in your post, it provides variety for all hunters by adding another tool with which to hunt.

The possiblity of archery going on draw is very high. As stated in the survey description.

But hey lets put the whole works on a draw, limit oppurtunity everywhere.

Both weapons are equal according to the pro xbow guys... So why don't we hold our bows vertically and keep enjoying a general archery season?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by steve

The possiblity of archery going on draw is very high. As stated in the survey description.

But hey lets put the whole works on a draw, limit oppurtunity everywhere.

Both weapons are equal according to the pro xbow guys... So why don't we hold our bows vertically and keep enjoying a general archery season?

"If cross-bows were permitted during archery-only seasons, it is predicted that this would add hunters to those seasons and, in turn, result in an increased harvest. Depending on the increase in harvest, additional species (i.e. moose and mule deer) and areas may be placed on draw for archery hunting where a special licence had not previously been required."

Where does it say: "The possiblity of archery going on draw is very high. As stated in the survey description."?

You need to get your facts straight if you want to be able to have an informed opinion.

[steve]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

"If cross-bows were permitted during archery-only seasons, it is predicted that this would add hunters to those seasons and, in turn, result in an increased harvest. Depending on the increase in harvest, additional species (i.e. moose and mule deer) and areas may be placed on draw for archery hunting where a special licence had not previously been required."

Where does it say: "The possiblity of archery going on draw is very high. As stated in the survey description."?

You need to get your facts straight if you want to be able to have an informed opinion.

There has been talk over the years of a draw system implemented to the archery season. Now, if the intro of xbows happens that will be the last nail in the coffin. It will be a draw. Lets sit back and watch hunting oppurtunity slide away so guys can hold there bows horizontal...

Facts are straight as a arrow.. err.. I mean bolt.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I can't comment on what any other "yes" guy are thinking but......

I think that the possibility of adding draws because of including crossbows into archery only season is very low. Initially there may be an increase of hunters in archery season but I predict that those numbers will decrease significantly once people realize that hunting with a crossbow is not quite as easy as they thought it would be. I also doubt that the success rates of newbies with crossbows will be high enough to warrant turning some general species into draw. The tool is only as effective as the person hunting with it.

If you take adding draws to archery season off of the table, by adding crossbow to archery season, you are adding the opportunity for the young, the old and anyone else that can't draw a compound bow due to an injury that doesn't meet the standards to qualify for a crossbow permit.

Also, although not mentioned in your post, it provides variety for all hunters by adding another tool with which to hunt.

You stating that archery going on draw due to the inclusion of xbows is low is just your opinion, the fact that the question itself states that this is a possibility suggests to me that it is a big enough concern to the managers that it is bigger than what you would suggest. The other point to this is that they will act on numbers of hunters coupled with harvest rates. It will only take one year and once on a draw it will be done. They will stay regardless of hunter numbers and harvest results.

I also believe that this arguement that it will up the number of new hunters, young hunters and disabled hunters is somewhat overblown. I know a great deal of young (12 year olds) hunters that can draw a bow. If they can't then maybe they'll just have to wait another year and stick with a rifle or xbow in the general season. I don't see what's wrong with that. Disabled hunters already have the oppurtunity to use the thing. As for new hunters if they want to hunt they will likely be just as enthusiastic in the rifle season as the bow season.

Finally, your last sentence is invalid, if that is what people want they already have that oppurtunity buy a xbow and go hunting with it.

My opinion is that the equipment is substantially different than what the orginal season was set up for and thus it doesn't belong there.

The potential downside of inclusion of the weapon in the season far out weighs the potential benefits and the quality of the season will be reduced by the inclusion of this weapon.

[steve]

Originally Posted by SLH

You stating that archery going on draw due to the inclusion of xbows is low is just your opinion, the fact that the question itself states that this is a possibility suggests to me that it is a big enough concern to the managers that it is bigger than what you would suggest. The other point to this is that they will act on numbers of hunters coupled with harvest rates. It will only take one year and once on a draw it will be done. They will stay regardless of hunter numbers and harvest results.

I also believe that this arguement that it will up the number of new hunters, young hunters and disabled hunters is somewhat overblown. I know a great deal of young (12 year olds) hunters that can draw a bow. If they can't then maybe they'll just have to wait another year and stick with a rifle or xbow in the general season. I don't see what's wrong with that. Disabled hunters already have the oppurtunity to use the thing. As for new hunters if they want to hunt they will likely be just as enthusiastic in the rifle season as the bow season.

Finally, your last sentence is invalid, if that is what people want they already have that oppurtunity buy a xbow and go hunting with it.

My opinion is that the equipment is substantially different than what the orginal season was set up for and thus it doesn't belong there.

The potential downside of inclusion of the weapon in the season far out weighs the potential benefits and the quality of the season will be reduced by the inclusion of this weapon.

Well said.

I would have to agree that mule deer, moose and likely elk will go on draw in many WMUs if crossbows are included. While many crossbow hunters will come from the ranks of current vertical bow hunters, there is bound to be a new influx of hunters into this season as well. More hunters means increased harvest.